Lone shooters

[David BASC]

Dear All,

 

Here is a new guidance sheet from BASC for lone shooters. Would welcome any feedback.

 

Best wishes

 

David

 

Lone_shooters.docIncident_report_form.doc

[dusk2dawn]

Dear All,

 

Here is a new guidance sheet from BASC for lone shooters. Would welcome any feedback.

 

Best wishes

 

David

 

Lone_shooters.docIncident_report_form.doc

 

 

Very helpful and informative, thanks.

 

Small point but I am under the immpression that should a police officer request your name and address you were obliged by law to give it, not just because a criminal act was/maybe comitted?

 

D2D

[Wookie]

I'm interested in the definition of "an agent" in relation to the landowner.

 

Say I have written permission to shoot on a farmer's land, does that automatically make me the landowner's agent?

 

Also, some of the advice seems to be slanted towards grouped shoots (end para, chapt 3). I appreciate that this is aimed at the majority, but I shoot alone 95% of the time on private land and I would not describe this as a "shoot". That sounds a lot more organised.

 

Does BASC recommend the collection/preservation of spit/other bodily fluids if people project them at then in the course of their activities? If so, could advice be given on their collection/preservation?

[bob300w]

I'm interested in the definition of "an agent" in relation to the landowner.

 

Say I have written permission to shoot on a farmer's land, does that automatically make me the landowner's agent?

 

Also, some of the advice seems to be slanted towards grouped shoots (end para, chapt 3). I appreciate that this is aimed at the majority, but I shoot alone 95% of the time on private land and I would not describe this as a "shoot". That sounds a lot more organised.

 

Does BASC recommend the collection/preservation of spit/other bodily fluids if people project them at then in the course of their activities? If so, could advice be given on their collection/preservation?

Firstly let me say that I have been a member of BASC for 46 years, so I am not anti-BASC. But as we could not even get a straight answer from BASC regarding the "Shooting from a Highway" question asked a few days ago, I don't think that you are in with a snowball's with these ones.

 

"David;BASC: If you have permission to shoot on both sides of the footpath then you are within the law pretty well come what may if you are more than 50 feet from the middle of said footpath, the issue is when you are closer"

 

"you are within the law pretty well come what may " That's a legal expression no doubt?

[pavman]

2 Aggravated Trespass

On private land it is a criminal offence (aggravated trespass) to obstruct or disrupt anyone pursuing a lawful activity. It is also an offence to intimidate someone so as to deter them from taking part in that activity. Blocking an access road, walking in front of a shooter when they are about to shoot, threatening or attacking a shooter can all be criminal offences.

The police have the power, in most circumstances, to arrest anyone committing a criminal offence.

 

 

I have a great deal of knowleadge in this clause and I can tell you via a pm what really happens in this case if you are disrupted by Antis

[al4x]

I'm interested in the definition of "an agent" in relation to the landowner.

 

Say I have written permission to shoot on a farmer's land, does that automatically make me the landowner's agent?

 

Also, some of the advice seems to be slanted towards grouped shoots (end para, chapt 3). I appreciate that this is aimed at the majority, but I shoot alone 95% of the time on private land and I would not describe this as a "shoot". That sounds a lot more organised.

 

Does BASC recommend the collection/preservation of spit/other bodily fluids if people project them at then in the course of their activities? If so, could advice be given on their collection/preservation?

Firstly let me say that I have been a member of BASC for 46 years, so I am not anti-BASC. But as we could not even get a straight answer from BASC regarding the "Shooting from a Highway" question asked a few days ago, I don't think that you are in with a snowball's with these ones.

 

"David;BASC: If you have permission to shoot on both sides of the footpath then you are within the law pretty well come what may if you are more than 50 feet from the middle of said footpath, the issue is when you are closer"

 

"you are within the law pretty well come what may " That's a legal expression no doubt?

 

 

Bob the situation is the way the laws written its pretty much impossible to give a definitive answer as simply not causing a nuisance is so open to interpretation its ridiculous. Something sadly you can't really blame David for

[pavman]

David hi

 

Can you please advise how many cases of aggravated trespass that have been successfully made against Antis you know of with or without the assistance of BASC, and what practical legal representation BASC can offer to any members that require help

 

many thanks

[cubix]

David hi

 

Can you please advise how many cases of aggravated trespass that have been successfully made against Antis you know of with or without the assistance of BASC, and what practical legal representation BASC can offer to any members that require help

 

many thanks

 

That's a criminal offence so would be pursued by the Police/CPS. I'd be interested to know how many Civil cases were brought though.

[David BASC]

Dear All,

 

If a police officer believes you are committing an offence and asks for your details then I believe under PACE you must give them. Otherwise I am unsure what criminal offence you would be committing if you refused to give your details – but I suspect it will always depend on the circumstances. Now I am bet I get accused again of not giving a straight answer!

 

I will try my best to get the definition of ‘agent’ for you. If you simply have the shooting or sporting rights, although you would certainly be an occupier of that land I am not 100% sure that you would be an ‘agent’ of the farmer. However, as an occupier of land surely you have the right to remove (using reasonable force) someone causing you a problem? I know there are a couple of police officers on this forum, maybe they have a view from a practical point of view?

 

I am not aware of any other cases of aggravated trespass against shoots, civil or criminal – perhaps some of you are. However, I am mindful that the antis will have heard about the recent case so more chances of AT this year?

 

Lawyers defend people not BASC! We do offer help and advice to lawyers representing members when requested so to do.

 

Collection of human samples is not something to be taken lightly is it? Suggest leaving that to experts with the proper kit and procedures.

 

 

David

[bob300w]

I'm interested in the definition of "an agent" in relation to the landowner.

 

Say I have written permission to shoot on a farmer's land, does that automatically make me the landowner's agent?

 

Also, some of the advice seems to be slanted towards grouped shoots (end para, chapt 3). I appreciate that this is aimed at the majority, but I shoot alone 95% of the time on private land and I would not describe this as a "shoot". That sounds a lot more organised.

 

Does BASC recommend the collection/preservation of spit/other bodily fluids if people project them at then in the course of their activities? If so, could advice be given on their collection/preservation?

Firstly let me say that I have been a member of BASC for 46 years, so I am not anti-BASC. But as we could not even get a straight answer from BASC regarding the "Shooting from a Highway" question asked a few days ago, I don't think that you are in with a snowball's with these ones.

 

"David;BASC: If you have permission to shoot on both sides of the footpath then you are within the law pretty well come what may if you are more than 50 feet from the middle of said footpath, the issue is when you are closer"

 

"you are within the law pretty well come what may " That's a legal expression no doubt?

 

 

Bob the situation is the way the laws written its pretty much impossible to give a definitive answer as simply not causing a nuisance is so open to interpretation its ridiculous. Something sadly you can't really blame David for

You are correct Al4x, and I apologise to David if that is how my reply came across, it was not my intention to blame any individual for the state of the gun laws in this country, they, like many other laws need severe modernisation and my reply was basically a result of frustration at not having a black or white answer to the question. It did after all, initially, appear to be a simple question with a yes or no answer.

[pavman]

sorry, David I may not have made my point clear,

 

1, do you know of any successful prosecutions taken up by the Police against Anti for agg trespass whilst disturbing lawful shooting on private land

 

The reason I say this is in my experience even when having very good evidence CPS will not take up the case and advise Guns to take private action

 

2, Do BASC offer assistance from their legal team to represent its members in such a situation, in other words The Police will take no action and it falls to the lone shooter to defend himself and attempt a privately raised ASBO or order to help defend his rights when faced with Antis intent on disrupting his lawful rights.

 

 

It would seem pointless giving out advise to make folk aware of crimes committed by Antis such as aggravated trespass if the Police will not uphold the Law and the guns rights and the body representing the gun does likewise.

[David BASC]

CPS- Yep - take your point- although in a recent case when the CPS were involved (organised shoot - not lone pigeon shooter) the CPS did push but the case failed in court.... I will ask others if they know of cases. However, a private individual could take a civil case to court - but not a criminal case? Or am i wrong?

 

BASC would love to hear of any cases where there is a clear breaking of the law by anties and the police stand back and do nothing! From the work our firearms and Gamekeeping team do with the police, I would suggest that the feedback we have form the police is that they are more than interested in making sure the shooters are not intimidated by anties.

 

We do not employ lawyers on staff and we do not take cases to court in the way you suggest- for taking anties to court to have some form of restraining order placed on them for example. We would work with the member (s) to try and make sure the (robust?) legal system we have in the UK comes into play and that justice is done, and we can refer members to lawyers who are familiar with the law in relation to shooting and the countryside. But this should be a last resort- in the context that the law MUST work for shooters- after all we are among the most responsible and law abiding members of society- we have to be otherwise we would not get a SGC or FAC!

 

Having said that (and I know this is off the subject) I offer you this as a sad reflection of our society- although I accept it is probably a ‘one off’. My wife works in a school where the children are, shall we say, more rebellious then most. Last week a fight broke out involving a group of lads, at least one of who had a knife- several teachers ran out to try and break the fight up – as luck would have it a police car (twin crew) was driving by, One teacher stopped the car and asked for assistance, to be told ‘ Sorry you must call 999’ So they did, 2 minutes later guess who turned up? The same police car with the same cops in it!

 

David

[Baldrick]

I'm interested in the definition of "an agent" in relation to the landowner.

 

Legally speaking, this must be an authorised agent: someone empowered to make decisions on behalf of the landowner. e.g. a farm manager, an attorney, a resident agent or (like me) a non-resident agent authorised to act on behalf of the landowner.

 

Having shooting rights does not empower you to act as agent. I am sure one of the legal eagles like Mungler may be able to clarify further.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Baldrick

[David BASC]

Baldrick,

 

Thank you very much for that - I will add this definition into the document.

 

D

[cubix]

"However, a private individual could take a civil case to court - but not a criminal case? Or am i wrong?"

 

As I understand it that is correct - a civil case is where an individual has been wronged but no-one else, the wronged party seeks redress (e.g. neighbour builds a garage and blocks your drive) - no crime has been committed.

 

A criminal case is where 'society' has also been wronged, (e.g. drunk driver, speeder etc) in which case the police/Crown Prosecution Service seek redress even though no one person has been a victim - we are all victims of drunk drivers in that they put everyone at risk, if you like. You can also still bring a civil case as well if you are the victim of that crime.

 

Magistrates hear civil cases and can only issue fines. The burden of proof is 'more likely than not' i.e. 51%.

 

Judges hear criminal cases and can lock people up as well. The burden of proof is 100% 'beyond all reasonable doubt'.

 

Thats is what's so infuriating - in the case of a crime, the police are our advocates and the only ones who can act.

 

That's my take on it anyway.

[Baldrick]

Cubix, the preliminary hearing for most indictable offences is carried out before magistrates, before a case moves up the hierarchy of the Courts.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Baldrick

[cubix]

Cubix, the preliminary hearing for most indictable offences is carried out before magistrates, before a case it moves up the hierarchy of the Courts.

 

I know, not from personal expereince though. None of mine ever got past the magistrates

[henry d]

David - Is this for England & Wales or for Scotland/N.Ireland too ??

[David BASC]

This document is based on current English / Welsh legislation.

 

The document is being reviewed by our Director for Scotland for Scottish law and our Director NI for NI law - so two further documents to be released ASAP.

 

By the way I agree with the analysis of the differentiation between County Ct and Crown Ct and Magistrates And Crown Ct .

 

I think magistrates Ct could pass down a custodial sentence- for up to 6 months, anything more than that, or if the accused was found guilty the likely sentence could be more than 6 months the case had to go to Crown Court.

 

Eg a guy accused of smashing a window - case goes to Magistrates Ct and that is the end of it.

 

A guy accused of manslaughter - case goes to Magistrates, then gets referred to Crown Ct.

 

But as I say I am no lawyer.

 

D

[henry d]

Thanks for that David !!

[lurcherboy]

Dear All,

 

Here is a new guidance sheet from BASC for lone shooters. Would welcome any feedback.

 

Best wishes

 

David

 

Lone_shooters.docIncident_report_form.doc

 

 

Very helpful and informative, thanks.

 

Small point but I am under the immpression that should a police officer request your name and address you were obliged by law to give it, not just because a criminal act was/maybe comitted?

 

D2D

 

 

 

D2D, you were not legally bound to give any personal details while being stopped in the street etc. but if you were run in to the factory you had to come clean. Laws may have been changed but being a law abidding citizen now I wouldn't know.

 

Dirty Harry should be able to clear that up.

 

 

 

LB

[njc110381]

I'm glad I've never been caught up in this kind of thing! I think I'd have to give them a bloody good kicking and then make sure I had a few mates to say I was with them at the time. It's not only antis that wear balaclavas in the field :yp:

[starlight32]

I will add to what pavman is trying to establish....

 

We have a case of organized anti's who have been disrupting our shooting on some vast marshes local to us for over 6 six years now and we thought that after an incident where they clearly slipped up they were caught bang to rights, and arrested.

 

Two counties police forces were involved as the two incidents happened only a few hundred yards from the two counties boundaries.

 

After a few months it eventually went no-where..

 

I have absolutley no confidence that police or the CPS will act against anti's of shooting sports becuase quite clearly underneath what we do is not in line with what they want us to do- Fact.

 

If any police officers are on here and reading this then I am sure you will aggree with me!!!!!!!

[pavman]

I will add to what pavman is trying to establish....

 

We have a case of organized anti's who have been disrupting our shooting on some vast marshes local to us for over 6 six years now and we thought that after an incident where they clearly slipped up they were caught bang to rights, and arrested.

 

Two counties police forces were involved as the two incidents happened only a few hundred yards from the two counties boundaries.

 

After a few months it eventually went no-where..

 

I have absolutley no confidence that police or the CPS will act against anti's of shooting sports becuase quite clearly underneath what we do is not in line with what they want us to do- Fact.

 

If any police officers are on here and reading this then I am sure you will aggree with me!!!!!!!

 

 

So you see David we have a very well founded interest in this matter, I have yet to hear of CPS taking action to uphold the law with regards to agg tresspass when country sports are involved! enough said me thinks

 

more to the point there is little basis for anyone to promote this as a course of action knowing no assistance from CPS will transpire and that none has been given to date, the only action open is private which most small clubs etc can not support without the backing of others

[David BASC]

On the contrary- there is a case that has been ‘high profile’ recently where the police and CPS wanted to prosecute for Ag trespass. Indeed the case went to court but failed on a technicality- much to the anger of the police and CPS. This has been covred in all the shooting mags recently.

 

As I wrote earlier- give me (via PM or direct e-mail) the details of the police force and police officers involved in the case, dates details etc and I will get out Gamekeeping and or firearms team to ask them why they dropped the case.

 

David