Legal Advice from BASC

[Jimbo57]

Given David BASC's offensive reaction to the surprise expressed to his assertion that BASC did not employ any legal staff, how does that tie in with your own belief prior to him making that statement? Did you not think that the main reason (apart from insurance) for joining BASC was because they were set up to protect shooters and shooting? And did you not believe that, as part of that, if you ever needed any legal advice or representation, BASC's Legal Team would be there for you? Was it not a surprise to learn from David BASC (who appears to work for them) that there is no such thing as a Legal Team, or even a solitary lawyer, among their 100+ staff?

[bob300w]

Given David BASC's offensive reaction to the surprise expressed to his assertion that BASC did not employ any legal staff, how does that tie in with your own belief prior to him making that statement? Did you not think that the main reason (apart from insurance) for joining BASC was because they were set up to protect shooters and shooting? And did you not believe that, as part of that, if you ever needed any legal advice or representation, BASC's Legal Team would be there for you? Was it not a surprise to learn from David BASC (who appears to work for them) that there is no such thing as a Legal Team, or even a solitary lawyer, among their 100+ staff?

Whilst not wishing to turn this into a BASC-bashing session, if the above is true, you do have to wonder exactly what 100+ staff do to earn their money, other than produce an advert-filled magazine that nobody reads, and sell overpriced trinkets.

Quite honestly, having read the above, although I have been a member of BASC/WAGBI for 40 plus years, I am now having serious doubts as to whether there is any advantage at all in being a member, I was under the impression that the whole point of membership was to have legal representation. It does however explain why, on the two occasions in the past that I have contacted BASC for advice, I have received no reply.

Edited May 28, 2008 by bob300w

[malkiserow]

Can you give us a link to the original comments/post please

 

Ignore request.... just found it anyway.

 

As a general comment, many orgainsations and unions employ people who are not lawyers to give some very good legal advice. this is often done in preparation to assist people decide if they want to take private legal action or for the organisation to sometimes pay for formal legal advice based on the "research" done by some often competant staff with specialist knowledge.

 

Is this what BASC has?

Edited May 28, 2008 by malkiserow

[cubix]

Not sure I'd agree with that, two days ago I had a specific response to a question regarding my legal responsibilities re: deer management from a senior scottish offcial. Although not a lawyer they were well informed on the specific acts and legal issues. I don't think you need to be a lawyer to be an expert on the law.

 

They may not employ a lawyer, but lots of professional bodies don't - they hire them in when needed. The convention is that they provide insurance to cover members legal fees. When members of any body want legal advice they may prefer to choose their own advisors which their insurance pays for rather than have an in house one forced on them.

 

This is how the Citizens Advice Bureau work.

[Piebob]

This is like most of the polls on here - they seem to get started from a biased point of view so the voting options are skewed.

 

My thinking is that BASC do have legal expertise - they just don't happen to employ any dedicated lawyers. Instead, BASC accesses them as and when required, presumably because they don't have the requirement, demand or funds to have someone "on the books" dedicated to legal issues.

 

Where's the voting option that says - "I believe that BASC already have the required legal expertise, and am confident they'll call upon legal professionals as and when required if the existing employees need assistance"?

[al4x]

anyone know what it costs to employ a good lawyer?

 

To my mind they will have knowledge of dealing with the peculiarities of law surrounding shooting but as ever law is determined in court so you can only really get an opinion, I'm assuming if they take up any legal issues then they do as any company does and buy the legal services of a company with expertise in the area

Edited May 28, 2008 by al4x

[Dunkield]

If they have access to it, and provide it when required, what does it matter?

[cubix]

"anyone know what it costs to employ a good lawyer?"

 

You local solicitor might start at £80 an hour? For a specialist barrister you can go up to £800 + an hour, I have heard a tale of £1200 an hour.

[Pinkfooty]

I can't vote for any of the options as none of them is correct.

 

Having reviewed the other thread, I think that David may have inadvertently undersold BASC on this issue or perhaps he weas just misinterpreted by people generalising from a particular situation.

 

BASC does, indeed, offer a huge amount of legal advice to its members. It would not make any economic sense to employ solicitors on the staff as a team of several would be required to cover all the specialist areas of the law that affect shooting - firearms legislation, environmental law, European law, etc., etc.

 

What BASC does is retain the services of specialists in all the required areas and then goes to the appropriate specialist as necessary. Every time there is new legislation or a new legal situation, BASC is very quick to obtain legal advice and make this available to all members.

 

A few examples -

 

Recently, when wildfowling clubs faced potentially adverse interpretation of the law in wildfowling consents by English Nature, BASC obtained the legal opinion of the country's top Barrister in this field. Anyone who was at the national Wildfowling Conference earlier this year would hear how successful BASC has been in challenging the NE's original position.

 

When the Scottish Government brought out the new General Licences affecting woodpigeon shooting, vermin trapping, etc., earlier this year, BASC was very quick to get advice out to members.

 

There have been innumerable cases where BASC officers have, with the strength of legal expertise behind them, successfully tackled local Firearms Departments on behalf of members.

 

So, don't confuse the lack of an employed "legal team" with a lack of legal advice for members.

 

What BASC obviously cannot do is provide legal representation in Court for members who may have been charged with offences. Even then, however, there have been individual cases in the past where BASC have provided for legal representation if it was felt that a particular case could provide a precedent in law that would affect the wider membership.

 

Hope this helps clarify the way that BASC does, indeed, use legal advice to protect and promote the interests of its members.

Edited May 28, 2008 by Pinkfooty

[webber]

Its already been said that you dont have to be a qualified solicitor to give legal advise. You must not however claim to be a qualified solicitor etc.

 

I dont know what Bill Harrimans qualifications are, but there is at least one BASC member not doing time thanks to his expert knowledge.

 

I would guess that BASC have access to suitably qualified and experienced solicitors and barristers as and when required.

Fortunatley for Pigeon Watch we have our very own Mungler, not to mention a wealth of members who have been through the mill.

 

webber

[Harnser]

In my humble opinion B.A.S.C. has lost its grass roots connection to the ordinary shooting man . I was a member of W.A.G.B.I. for many ,many years and was satisfied with the way the association represented the members . When it became B.A.S.C. we as members seemed to lose the personel grass roots contact . It became expensive and i decided to leave as i conciderd my money wasent being spent to wisely . I could say a lot more but wont . Harnser .

[Dave-G]

Poll Question: Did you think that, as the organisation professing to protect shooters and shooting, BASC would have some legal expertise?

 

Pity there wasn't a tab to vote "feel informed legal EXPERTISE is there - but would'nt expect to fund a full time team of barristers with loads of letters and pound signs after their name"

[bob300w]

Well, pinkfooty's post, if it is factual, makes sense, and I can't help thinking that if david BASC's reply had been less abrasive, and as clear and concise as this, then this poll would not have been felt necessary.

Just to satisfy my idle curiosity pinkfooty, and for no other reason, do you have connections with BASC, other than solely as being a member?

Harnser has a very valid point, and I would think that his view is shared by a large percentage of members, this is certainly true of the feeling in my area. BASC distancing themselves from pistol shooters at the time of the ban was, I think, a classic example.

[Pinkfooty]

Well, pinkfooty's post, if it is factual, makes sense, and I can't help thinking that if david BASC's reply had been less abrasive, and as clear and concise as this, then this poll would not have been felt necessary.

Just to satisfy my idle curiosity pinkfooty, and for no other reason, do you have connections with BASC, other than solely as being a member?

Harnser has a very valid point, and I would think that his view is shared by a large percentage of members, this is certainly true of the feeling in my area. BASC distancing themselves from pistol shooters at the time of the ban was, I think, a classic example.

 

Hi Bob,

 

Yes - I am a member of BASC Council (until I step down at the AGM next month).

 

Since I posted the earlier contribution Webber has posted a Press Release from BASC about the carrying of knives. This is a good example of what I was talking about - BASC getting the legal advice necessary and making it available to members.

 

Regards,

 

Eric Begbie

[bob300w]

Well, pinkfooty's post, if it is factual, makes sense, and I can't help thinking that if david BASC's reply had been less abrasive, and as clear and concise as this, then this poll would not have been felt necessary.

Just to satisfy my idle curiosity pinkfooty, and for no other reason, do you have connections with BASC, other than solely as being a member?

Harnser has a very valid point, and I would think that his view is shared by a large percentage of members, this is certainly true of the feeling in my area. BASC distancing themselves from pistol shooters at the time of the ban was, I think, a classic example.

 

Hi Bob,

 

Yes - I am a member of BASC Council (until I step down at the AGM next month).

 

Since I posted the earlier contribution Webber has posted a Press Release from BASC about the carrying of knives. This is a good example of what I was talking about - BASC getting the legal advice necessary and making it available to members.

 

Regards,

 

Eric Begbie

Eric, my sole reason for asking was to establish whether your comments were assumed or from inside knowledge, as they appeared to be.

I must agree that the Press release has been invaluable and has put my mind at rest, and I assume many others. It's now a matter of remembering not to keep a skinning knife in the car!

[David BASC]

Dear All,

 

Thank you for the comments.

 

I did not intend to be abrasive or offensive- perhaps I over reacted when it was made clear that I was classed as a hanger on at BASC by one of you.

 

Secondly, although nothing to do with this thread, to say that BASC distanced itself from pistol shooters is totally wrong! Given that pistol shooting was mainly under the umbrella of the NPA at the time as it was mainly a target sport as opposed to live quarry shooting which is arguably where BASC is strongest (not to say we ignore target shooting by the way) BASC were very much at the front of trying to defend pistol shooting.

 

For example, BASC was the ONLY shooting organisation to go on TV THAT DAY to defend pistol shooting, Bill Harriman was live on Morning TV the following day, we gave countless further radio, TV and newspaper interviews over the following months.

 

Ta

 

David

[malkiserow]

Hi Bob,

 

Yes - I am a member of BASC Council (until I step down at the AGM next month).

 

Since I posted the earlier contribution Webber has posted a Press Release from BASC about the carrying of knives. This is a good example of what I was talking about - BASC getting the legal advice necessary and making it available to members.

 

Regards,

 

Eric Begbie

 

Eric, again you may be underselling the BASC service. Much law is in legal speak and as such difficult to understand. The key point is not about making the law available to members, it is about interpretation. Making the information accessable or putting it into laymans terms for simple people like me.

 

Malk

[Pinkfooty]

Eric, again you may be underselling the BASC service. Much law is in legal speak and as such difficult to understand. The key point is not about making the law available to members, it is about interpretation. Making the information accessable or putting it into laymans terms for simple people like me.

 

Malk

 

Malk,

 

I totally agree and that is one of BASC's greatest strengths. If you look at the briefing paper on knives, linked from Webber's posting of the Press Release, is that not exactly what BASC has done - it has translated the "legal-speak" of the legislation into common English that you and I can understand?

 

Eric

[bob300w]

Dear All,

 

Thank you for the comments.

 

I did not intend to be abrasive or offensive- perhaps I over reacted when it was made clear that I was classed as a hanger on at BASC by one of you.

 

Secondly, although nothing to do with this thread, to say that BASC distanced itself from pistol shooters is totally wrong! Given that pistol shooting was mainly under the umbrella of the NPA at the time as it was mainly a target sport as opposed to live quarry shooting which is arguably where BASC is strongest (not to say we ignore target shooting by the way) BASC were very much at the front of trying to defend pistol shooting.

 

For example, BASC was the ONLY shooting organisation to go on TV THAT DAY to defend pistol shooting, Bill Harriman was live on Morning TV the following day, we gave countless further radio, TV and newspaper interviews over the following months.

 

Ta

 

David

Well, I was a pistol shooter at the time, and a member of of BASC, and your recollections of BASC's position at the time are very different to mine and others whom I have spoken to since my first post on the subject. In point of fact, BASC lost many members who were both gameshooters and pistol shooters because of this.

It's interesting to see the different approach of BASC employees/spokesmen, yourself, attacking members to do not agree with you, and pinkfooty's approach of logic, facts, and reasoning.

I know who would get my vote, who has my respect, and whom I would like to see taking BASC forward. I think that Eric standing down will be a great loss to the association, it needs people who can talk to members, not talk down to them.

[David BASC]

Bob,

 

I was at BASC at the time of the ban, I was there on that day when the BBC were camped outside Marford Mill, I was wathching Bill on TV the following morning, listening to Robin Peel from BASC live on national radio and so on. At the time (I had only been with BASC about 6 months) I was a member of several other shooting organisations. As it goes, at the time I was wondering where they were...

 

I simply stated the facts - if you want to take this as me talking down to you I am very sorry to hear that, because it is not the case at all- why would I talk down to you? What would I have to gain? By all means if you can show me anything that BASC put into the media that was against pistol shooting, or was for the ban on pistol shooting I will eat my words!

 

Sorry mate I feel that you are putting your own spin on what I say and then crying foul! I have no reason or desire to fall out with you or anyone else on the forum- but please do not attack me for stating facts - can we agree on that at least?

 

All the best

 

David

[Harnser]

Bob,

 

I was at BASC at the time of the ban, I was there on that day when the BBC were camped outside Marford Mill, I was wathching Bill on TV the following morning, listening to Robin Peel from BASC live on national radio and so on. At the time (I had only been with BASC about 6 months) I was a member of several other shooting organisations. As it goes, at the time I was wondering where they were...

 

I simply stated the facts - if you want to take this as me talking down to you I am very sorry to hear that, because it is not the case at all- why would I talk down to you? What would I have to gain? By all means if you can show me anything that BASC put into the media that was against pistol shooting, or was for the ban on pistol shooting I will eat my words!

 

Sorry mate I feel that you are putting your own spin on what I say and then crying foul! I have no reason or desire to fall out with you or anyone else on the forum- but please do not attack me for stating facts - can we agree on that at least?

 

All the best

 

David

David ,

I can assure you that i do not have any personal crusade against B.A.S.C. . Its not what B.A.S.C. put in the papers but what they did not put in the papers about the pistol ban .It was obvious to most members that B,A.S.C. was prepared to pay lip service to the pro gun ownership people like myself and many other B.A.S.C. members of the day, and take a backseat on the ban . Say as little as possible as not to annoy the then powerful anti gun lobby ,and hope that they did not come after shot guns as well . I am sorry David but it was a fact . Harnser .

[David BASC]

Hanser,

 

Thanks for that - sorry you felt that way- all i can say is the from where I was standing BASC certainly did not pay lip service to the anti gun lobby as i sad, we went on telly, radio etc.

 

BUT perception is reality, obviously we failed to get the mesage accross to some members what we were doing. Let's hope we learn from that!

 

Thanks again

 

David

[bob300w]

Bob,

 

I was at BASC at the time of the ban, I was there on that day when the BBC were camped outside Marford Mill, I was wathching Bill on TV the following morning, listening to Robin Peel from BASC live on national radio and so on. At the time (I had only been with BASC about 6 months) I was a member of several other shooting organisations. As it goes, at the time I was wondering where they were...

 

I simply stated the facts - if you want to take this as me talking down to you I am very sorry to hear that, because it is not the case at all- why would I talk down to you? What would I have to gain? By all means if you can show me anything that BASC put into the media that was against pistol shooting, or was for the ban on pistol shooting I will eat my words!

 

Sorry mate I feel that you are putting your own spin on what I say and then crying foul! I have no reason or desire to fall out with you or anyone else on the forum- but please do not attack me for stating facts - can we agree on that at least?

 

All the best

 

David

I have no intention of getting into a lengthy debate over this subject, as you are not furthering the BASC ideals in the slightest by getting into slanging matches with it's members.

Do you honestly believe that a prospective new member reading your posts would join an organisation whose officers behave in this fashion towards its members?

 

I did not say that BASC had put anything into the press that was anti pistol shooting, had you read my post, I said that your recollections were different to mine, and that mine were that BASC had distanced itself from pistol shooters.

Now, if you wish to demonstrate an example of "putting ones own spin on something and crying foul" that is exactly what you have done with this statement.

 

I will not be responding to any further comments from yourself, as I think that your attitude is simply further dragging down a once great organisation that was once held in great esteem by it's members.

I have been a member of BASC for around 46 years now and I can only hope that your mentality is not typical of other officers of the Association.

[David BASC]

Thanks Bob

 

As I wrote- I do not want to fall out with you! We have differing views - which is NOT an issue is it?

 

And likewise I will not comment on your (deliberately?) antagonistic comments in your last post- lets put an end to this NOW and move on.

 

Cheers

 

David

[lurcherboy]

Theres a poll with with an agenda

 

Thanks to the BASC I got a SGC when the Cheif Constable said no way.

 

 

 

 

LB