SGC application rejected

[cornishclay]

I have just had my SGC application to Devon & Cornwall Police rejected on medical grounds. I have not seen my medical report yet but I suspect that my history of anxiety mixed in with depression (intermittent between approx June 2001 - Dec 2006) has got a lot to do with it. I am determined to carry on shooting (mainly clays) and ultimately to get my own gun but what I am after is some advice on what the next step maybe regarding getting an SGC.

 

I have been 100% clear of any medical problems now and been very happy with wife and baby, back at work etc since Jan 2007 = 21 mths. Incidently my anxiety etc was mainly linked to work and was entirely 'self created'. I have now put various actions into place to stop any of this happening again and they seem to be working. However I am still on medication associated with my previous illness.

 

I currently shoot down at a shooting ground nr Plymouth and to date have used 'club' guns when shooting clays. I hope that this can continue.

 

I am aware that I can appeal through the courts (within 21 days) against my SGC application being rejected. However despite my good health over the previous couple of years or so I think that this would be a fruitless effort especially when you take into account that I have only just been rejected & if I lost I would be liable for all court/solicitors costs = EXPENSIVE??, not just those of my own solicitor.

 

So my questions are -

 

1. Do I bother appealing through the courts against my SGC rejection?

2. Would an organistion like the BASC be able to advise me further (as of yet I am not a member of the BASC but would consider it if required)?

3. How long should I leave it before reapplying for an SGC?

4. Is it worth asking my shooting ground if they would store a gun (bought by me) for my use down at the ground?

5. I have read on a post on PW that people who have had a history of depression/anxiety who have got an SGC have intermittent checks from PC plod during the normal 5 yr 'lifespan' of the certificate. Is this true? If so it would appear that having a history of such illnesses does not preclude you from getting an SGC??

 

Thanking you all in anticipation

 

CC

[dustyfox]

Your still on Medication for it which means your still getting help for depression thats what they see.

 

I dont know about the appeal and that, but I would leave it a couple of years till you stop your medication. Apply again after a year or two you stopped taking medication for it.

 

By all means join BASC and see what they can do for you but I have heard that SACs are really good, they give you legal cover.

 

 

If you are 100% clear of any medical problems how comes you still taking medication?

 

Doesnt matter where you store your shotguns a SGC gives you the right to own a Shotgun which means you can take it anywhere you want, not just a Clay ground unless stated.

Edited August 30, 2008 by dustyfox

[russuk]

Obviously it's hard to comment without knowing all the facts. But I agree with Dusty, the sticking point will be this bit....

 

However I am still on medication associated with my previous illness.

 

The FLO has to look at all possibilities, and one running through his/her mind will be what happens if one day you decide to stop taking your medication. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but it's what they will be looking at.

 

PS. Welcome to PW.

Edited August 30, 2008 by russuk

[Mungler]

You are screwed for the timebeing.

 

The police will be concerned that if they give you a ticket and you go postal that's their pensions gone.

 

I knew a couple down at my local clay club where they had their own guns (dunno what the set up was) which they used each week and stored at the club. If you know and trust the club owner and you really wanted your own gun to shoot with, you could have a word. But, you could only use it at that club and of course with the club owner's supervision.

[CharlieT]

I believe I am correct in saying that it is an offence to lend a shotgun to someone who is prohibited from being granted a SGC.

 

I strongly advise you to take advice on this matter.

[PUSC]

would stick to the club guns for now mate...

[Evilv]

I'm not exactly sure of how the medical record vetting procedure goes, someone else might know, but it might be that they talk with your GP. I can't imagine that they just get an abstract of your medical record without explanation and interpretation. Maybe they ask set questions about you. Anyhow, I was thinking it might be possible to talk with your GP and find out his or her opinion of your medical position in relation to the application. If the GP feels there is a risk, then you ought to be guided by that, if they think not, they may be prepared to say so in writing which may help an appeal, or a reconsideration of the matter. This is all groping in the dark, because I don't know how it goes exactly, and of course, I have no insight at all into how your health is.

 

Good luck anyhow, and at least it seems you can maybe continue at the clay shooting club if you want.

[Kevitree]

Perhaps have a chat with the FLO and ask for an explanation? they are very helpfull.

 

Also without a SGC you will not be able to purchase a shotgun, so where to store it is not the issue

[Gordon R]

It really boils down to your GP. You might think you are better - he might not. Hence the continuing medication. I don't know what the period would be after you ceased medication and your GP pronounced you fit, but you need to discuss the matter with him and your FLO.

 

If you are genuinely keen - don't give up on shooting. Use club guns under supervision, if that's what it takes. Shooting is a hobby which can last you a lifetime. I have been clay shooting for approx 30 years.

 

Good luck and take the long term view.

[cornishclay]

Thanks all for your comments and advice.

 

I'm going to try and get hold of my medical report and see what that says, have a chat if required with my GP and then speak to D&C Police FLO. What I really want to find out is how long I have got to wait or what has my medical record got to say before I can successfully reapply for an SGC.......................it's all a bit disheartening, whilst I was obviously aware of my medical history, with my recent good health I did not think that it would be such a problem - I was obviously wrong!! Looks like I am going to have to wait...........

 

Re the storage of the gun it was never my intention to buy the gun under my name.. I was thinking (although I have never discussed this with my SG, it's an idea only) that I would give my SG the money for the gun and they then pay for it/store it on their ground and on their certificates. I would then come up and use it at the SG with their permission. Whether they would want to entertain this or how legal it is I do not know.

 

However I do take on board Charlie T's comment about the legality of lending someone, who has had an SGC application rejected, a gun. At the moment because I have had a few lessons down at my SG I have been 'safety approved' and am able to take a club gun out around the ground unsupervised. If what Charlie T is saying is right then it looks as if this will have to stop? Who would I go to to get guidance on this matter?? Am I going to now be restricted to using a gun only when supervised by an instructor or another SGC holder?

 

I am thinking that I should speak to the owners of the shooting ground anyway re my SGC rejection just to see what their take on the situation is. I don't want to be putting them in an awkward/'illegal'(?) situation

 

Any thoughts??

 

CC

[CharlieT]

CC

 

I could swear that I have read somewhere that this was the case but I have been searching for any reference to the subject and can not find anything. So I may be wrong.I would speak to the firearms licensing manager who I have always found to be very approachable for a definitive answer.

 

I would speak with your GP first and explain the situation to him. He may be able to give you an indication as to how long he thinks you will be on medication and how long after that would he consider you fit to hold a SGC.

When you know these answers you should approach your firearms manager as it will ultimately be his decision as to when a reapplication would be considered following a positive report from your GP. Also remember that the police would have passed your GP's report to their own medics for definitive guidance.

 

charlie

[lambhat]

However I do take on board Charlie T's comment about the legality of lending someone, who has had an SGC application rejected, a gun. At the moment because I have had a few lessons down at my SG I have been 'safety approved' and am able to take a club gun out around the ground unsupervised. If what Charlie T is saying is right then it looks as if this will have to stop? Who would I go to to get guidance on this matter?? Am I going to now be restricted to using a gun only when supervised by an instructor or another SGC holder?

 

Have a look at sections 6.14, 6.15, 5.9 and 5.4 of this: http://www.basc.org.uk/media/ho_guidance.pdf

 

Looks like they can't lend you a gun if they have reason to believe you're of unsound mind. (I'm not saying you are!!) They obviously haven't had a reason so far. Unless you have to tell them, I'd keep quiet about the rejection and not give them a possible reason now.

[cubix]

Your GP has probably not expressed an opinion as to whether you are fit to hold a SGC or not.

 

He will have just stated the the fact that you suffer from mental illness.

 

The refusal of SGC/FAC to someone who is mentally ill is police policy, not NHS policy. They know that often mental illness can come and go with a person their whole lives. The symptoms may be under control with medication, but the condition is there, and it is unpredictable.

 

You can see why they use the same rules for everyone - how often do we read about a chroncally depressed indivudal who has used a shot gun on themslves, or worse their family. Do you recall the barrister in London a few months back?

 

I would not think you have much hope of success unless you could show you were symptom free without medication for a long time.

 

You may be fortunate to even be allowed to be in control of a gun when being supervised. If this goes higher up the decision making ladder you might lose even that.

 

 

I hope things work out OK for you.

[jasons gold]

Thanks all for your comments and advice.

 

"I have been 'safety approved' and am able to take a club gun out around the ground unsupervised."

 

I would say they and you have already committed an offence. Your offence would be illegal possesion of a firearm, and there's would be letting a shotgun out to someone without a certificate, and not supervising them not sure of the technical term they would use

Edited August 31, 2008 by jasons gold

[markbivvy]

Unless you have to tell them, I'd keep quiet about the rejection and not give them a possible reason now.

 

take no notice of this bit what ever you do.

[lambhat]

take no notice of this bit what ever you do.

 

Because?

 

 

I would say they and you have already committed an offence. Your offence would be illegal possesion of a firearm, and there's would be letting a shotgun out to someone without a certificate, and not supervising them not sure of the technical term they would use

 

Seems likely if the gun was being lent under section 11(5) ("borrow a shot gun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier's presence"). But if the gun was being lent under section 11(6) ("use a shot gun at a time and place approved for shooting at artificial targets by the chief officer of police") then there's no supervision requirement in the Firearms Act.

[markbivvy]

take no notice of this bit what ever you do.

 

Because?

 

 

I would say they and you have already committed an offence. Your offence would be illegal possesion of a firearm, and there's would be letting a shotgun out to someone without a certificate, and not supervising them not sure of the technical term they would use

 

Seems likely if the gun was being lent under section 11(5) ("borrow a shot gun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier's presence"). But if the gun was being lent under section 11(6) ("use a shot gun at a time and place approved for shooting at artificial targets by the chief officer of police") then there's no supervision requirement in the Firearms Act.

up until he was refused no offence had been commited.common practice at clay grounds for none sgc holders to try before you buy.section (11(6))

not telling them he has had a refusal is a very different matter.

[Evilv]

He needs to have a heart to heart with his GP, discuss openly the issues and decide how to go forward in the light of the advice he is given. Having depression and anxiety for a bit is a very common mental health issue. It can happen because of external pressures like unreasonable pressures at work or some traumatic event. It doesn't mean the guy is a full blown mentalist does it. If a person has had serious suicidal feelings, or much more worrying, unreasonable outbursts of anger and lack of self control, they ought to stay away from guns and take up golf (with balsa clubs).

 

If the GP is worried about him and guns, he should take that advice seriously. If not, they maybe could come to an agreement about when the GP would be happy to say his problems are over.

 

I wish Cornishclay all the best, whatever happens. Twnety five percent of people have some kinds of mental health problems at some time or other. It is very common and mostly, not at all dangerous.

[vole]

I feel sorry for you and hope you get it sorted. I had a bad time at work with stress.I had difficulty sleeping and was brassed off with the pressures. Ended up with a diagnosis of depression but it did not stop me getting a SGC the year after.I did get medication which I did not complete as the bad patch at work improved. If I had a similar bad patch,would I go to the Doc? Absolutely not.

Sadly in this day and age,us chaps cant get professional help for all kinds of stuff without it going against us in some shape or form(drink,drugs,emotional problems,stress). Usually in terms of insurance cover,or in this case,your hobby. Thats why we tend not to go to the quack with such stuff.

Best of luck mate :yp:

[Wildshot]

don't know if this will help or not but..

When I first applied for my SGC was refused as my consultant said I had suffered depression and might cause harm to myself or others. I disputed this as the only time in my life I had suffered depression ws under medication he prescribed. I immediately went to an NHS psychiatrist and had an evaluation done to refute my consultants claim. I then presented this to my Police authority (my GP is anti- shooting so I could not rely on them). After arguing my case and also proving my physical disabilities did not make me unsafe with a gun; I was granted my SGC.

So my advice would be to fight it if you can get people to back you up.

[deejay]

after reading this i am not sure if its a wind up yet or not but if its not ,

I personally would not let you near a gun sorry ,but you have said you are on medication for anxiety and depression.Now tell me if i am wrong but a depressed guy with shotgun in a gun club is a gun clubs nightmare,look i am not saying that you would but you obviously have problems or had ,you do need to come off the medication for i would say at least 12 months .

To the rest of the members on here saying he should carry on using gun at club, dont think we need reminding about the terrible news this week about the house fire. We will get slated again

[ziplex]

He needs to have a heart to heart with his GP, discuss openly the issues and decide how to go forward in the light of the advice he is given. Having depression and anxiety for a bit is a very common mental health issue. It can happen because of external pressures like unreasonable pressures at work or some traumatic event. It doesn't mean the guy is a full blown mentalist does it. If a person has had serious suicidal feelings, or much more worrying, unreasonable outbursts of anger and lack of self control, they ought to stay away from guns and take up golf (with balsa clubs).

 

If the GP is worried about him and guns, he should take that advice seriously. If not, they maybe could come to an agreement about when the GP would be happy to say his problems are over.

 

I wish Cornishclay all the best, whatever happens. Twnety five percent of people have some kinds of mental health problems at some time or other. It is very common and mostly, not at all dangerous.

 

Absolutely, as soon as 'depression' is mentioned everybody, (mostly those who do not understand or have never suffered with it), take an instant sharp intake of breath and then go on to assume, more often than not, in a derogatory way. Good advice to talk to your GP i'd say, especially if he is half human :yp: ...if you communicate with him openly, in time if you are OK it will come out in the wash B)

[Evilv]

after reading this i am not sure if its a wind up yet or not but if its not ,

I personally would not let you near a gun sorry ,but you have said you are on medication for anxiety and depression.Now tell me if i am wrong but a depressed guy with shotgun in a gun club is a gun clubs nightmare,look i am not saying that you would but you obviously have problems or had ,you do need to come off the medication for i would say at least 12 months .

To the rest of the members on here saying he should carry on using gun at club, dont think we need reminding about the terrible news this week about the house fire. We will get slated again

 

 

:yp:

 

This is the problem that people who have had depression face - imbecilic attitudes of people who know nothing and think that any hint of a problem means the guy is a psycho waiting to explode.

 

What an idiotic answer to give.

[njc110381]

I'm sorry to hear you've had your SGC refused. The police are obviously unhappy with the current situation, and to be honest I don't blame them. I think you should talk to your FEO before talking to the club. You don't want to make things uneasy with them if you don't need to, but you also need to check your legal position regarding borrowing a gun.

 

I think with time you should get what you're after. Once you've proven you're no longer depressed over a longer period and have got rid of the medication there's little reason for you to be refused. It sounds like you've dealt with the problems you have, so in the long term you should be fine.

 

I guess all you can do is plod on the way you are now (assuming your FEO gives you the go-ahead to keep using the club gun) and try again in a couple of years.

 

Last of all, good luck :yp:

[deejay]

after reading this i am not sure if its a wind up yet or not but if its not ,

I personally would not let you near a gun sorry ,but you have said you are on medication for anxiety and depression.Now tell me if i am wrong but a depressed guy with shotgun in a gun club is a gun clubs nightmare,look i am not saying that you would but you obviously have problems or had ,you do need to come off the medication for i would say at least 12 months .

To the rest of the members on here saying he should carry on using gun at club, dont think we need reminding about the terrible news this week about the house fire. We will get slated again

 

 

:yp:

 

This is the problem that people who have had depression face - imbecilic attitudes of people who know nothing and think that any hint of a problem means the guy is a psycho waiting to explode.

 

What an idiotic answer to give.

this is not an idiotic answer

As ziplex has stated people who have not suffered from depression jump on the bandwagon and suggest he is some form of nutter. But they also try to understand and pretend to know how they feel ,to make light of the situation,Think he needs to hear some sensible answers from people who know how they feel. But i do agree with your both of your posts evilv and they do face a massive problem abd it is mainly from there gp's believe it or not who in turn just hand out the pills, then push them out the door .