kdubya Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Purely from a humane point of view, now remember that line before any of you want to kick off, how can anyone with a conscience back what Israel are doing ? LB purely from a humane point of view, how can anyone with a conscience place rocket launchers AA guns and other militia based weaponry in schools hospitals and urbanised area's let alone use them from those positions knowing full well and actually INVITING the awful response hamas are simply reaping that which they are sowing and surely anyone with a non closed mind can see that. cheers KW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 "But we should not be surprised, Israel's history has been riddled with War Crimes and mass killings of the Palestinian and Arab civilian population. It all started with gusto in 1948 with Dier Yassin, as the Zionists started ethnically clearing the land. " Hey Santlache, did you watch that video link I posted a few pages ago about the origin of Zionism and how one of the founders Hertzl was saying things like religious jews should not be wealthy and should be second class citizens. This was ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE JEWISH IDEA FOR THE STATE OF ISRAEL admitting to ANTI-SEMITIC viewpoints. Just goes to show that zionism and anti-semitism are 2 things alltogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 "The spokesman for Hamas said "we will fight to the end" ,,where the end is i don`t know" usually under a pile of rubble No Israeli Flag now, Dazza ? Mine had a Swastika imposed within a Star of David, which represented nicely how Nazi-like the Zionists have become. However, I quickly removed it as in no way do I wish to show any support for the Nazis. I assume by your support for Israel, you also support their policy of bulldozing Palestinian Homes to build roads for 'Jews Only'. That's rather Nazi-like don't you think ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Yes - otherwise, Hamas et al wouldn't use their own civvies as a human shield, ensuring they're killed in the crossfire for PR purposes. Zionist propaganda, which they've spouted for years to try and justify the killing of innocent people. You only have to go on the Amnesty International Web site to see dozens of cases of Israel saying there was sniper fire or Terrorists shooting at them, yet when properly investigated no one except the Israelis seem to have heard or seen this so-called terrorist activity and no evidence is ever found. Kids playing on roof tops shot by Israeli snipers, it's all on there. Yesterday was a classic example, when Israel shelled the UN building in Gaza, destroying hundreds of tons of food and aid. "Hamas fighters were shooting at us from inside" came the standard Israeli response. "Complete and utter rubbish" said ALL the UN staff manning the compound. If Israel are conducting the war within International Law (Which they certainly aren't because they are using banned munitions in populated areas) why won't they allow any journalists in to see what they are doing. Women and children leaving houses under a white flag to seek safety - gunned down. Let the murder and War Crimes continue hey ? You supporters of Israel should hang your heads in shame. Zionism is as evil as Nazism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vole Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Santlache,would you not be better venting all that rhetoric somewhere it might make a difference? I admit your posts could do you proud at the Uni debating society but do you not think this audience are finding you a bit preachy? I usually enjoy a look at the current issue posts but your lecturing is verging on patronization. I dont think you are going to sort out your personal issues on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Oh look, the dirty ayrab tehorists, definately, don't you agree?http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=9oeFIo7EcLw There is no word one can use to describe that horrific scene War Crimes are being committed by Israel, no question. Now I'd like to see supporters of Israel defend it. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9oeFIo7EcLw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 and under that rubble will be the bodies of human beings wether they be - jews ,muslims ,christians and the war will go on when we have gone Santlache,would you not be better venting all that rhetoric somewhere it might make a difference? I admit your posts could do you proud at the Uni debating society but do you not think this audience are finding you a bit preachy? I usually enjoy a look at the current issue posts but your lecturing is verging on patronization. I dont think you are going to sort out your personal issues on this forum. I understand where you are coming from, but on each occasion I am usually just countering a claim made either against me, or one made by a supporter of Israel and it's policies. I'm also still waiting on the evidence to prove I'm an anti-Semite, a rather serious accusation which I am perfectly entitled to defend my self over am I not ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 last week it was Alison- this week it`s Santlache , it`s not going to stop whether it`s Israel,Rwanda , iraq ,Afghanistan ,, the worlds not happy unless we`re not hurting somebody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Santlache, you do not and will not give up on your Zionist witch hunt, why do you refuse to see that which is happening and why do you use the rhetoric of "war crimes and the killing of innocents" as a tool? no sane person wishes to see kids hurt or killed but, for the love of god its what these people (hamas) want, yet you refuse to see it? is this a chosen blindness or a one born out of seeing one direction to the point that you genuinely cant see anything else. I genuinely respect your opinion, but it seems you refuse to accept others have theirs, even to the point of attempting to ridicule some others whose points of view are no less important than yours, even if yours do try to gain the moral high ground on a continual basis, Hamas ARE killing Palestinians as are Israeli's hamas ARE welcoming this slaughter, Hamas are indoctrinating hate on a daily basis yet you chose not to condemn this? try opening out those perhaps well meaning but blinkered all the same viewpoints, and try to see why the like's of mysel, feel that Israel MUST gain the upper hand, not only for themselves but indeed for the western world, and not to let the 14th century mentalities of the radical islamists taint mine and YOUR world, as clouded as it is. this is what they want this is what they are getting. sorry to seem harsh but that's the way it is. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HgXCOadVPB4&...feature=related Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 "But we should not be surprised, Israel's history has been riddled with War Crimes and mass killings of the Palestinian and Arab civilian population. It all started with gusto in 1948 with Dier Yassin, as the Zionists started ethnically clearing the land. " Hey Santlache, did you watch that video link I posted a few pages ago about the origin of Zionism and how one of the founders Hertzl was saying things like religious jews should not be wealthy and should be second class citizens. This was ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE JEWISH IDEA FOR THE STATE OF ISRAEL admitting to ANTI-SEMITIC viewpoints. Just goes to show that zionism and anti-semitism are 2 things alltogether. Israel is totally corrupt, and after a mere 60 years they already have a political elite like America. But one should be surprised really in a country which gets given 6 million dollars in aid every day from the US. Zionism at it's roots is Marxist really, as are the original neo-Conservatives in the US, but that all went to pot when the European Zionists gained control after flooding into Palestine, then the politics shifted almost full circle to the right and extreme right in some cases. To show how these people hijacked the Zionist movement one only has to look at the nationalities of all the Israeli Prime Minsters. None come from the original Palestinian Jewish population and none of them were born in Palestine, all were from eastern Europe. Ashkenazi Jews. Even the later ones are only second generation immigrants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Zionism at it's roots is Marxist really, as are the original neo-Conservatives in the US, but that all went to pot when the European Zionists gained control after flooding into Palestine, then the politics shifted almost full circle to the right and extreme right in some cases. To show how these people hijacked the Zionist movement one only has to look at the nationalities of all the Israeli Prime Minsters. None come from the original Palestinian Jewish population and none of them were born in Palestine, all were from eastern Europe. Ashkenazi Jews. Even the later ones are only second generation immigrants. Are you David Icke ? KW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurcherboy Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 purely from a humane point of view, how can anyone with a conscience place rocket launchers AA guns and other militia based weaponry in schools hospitals and urbanised area's let alone use them from those positions knowing full well and actually INVITING the awful response hamas are simply reaping that which they are sowing and surely anyone with a non closed mind can see that. cheers KW For ****s sake give me an argument KW not some platitude. Get stung by a wasp and you go to the hive with a baseball bat LB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) santlache , koz08, kdubya and any body else ,, its a no win situation .Israel ,palestine , hamas what ever ,, its in their nature to wage WAR Edited January 16, 2009 by duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the pelt man Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 It will end when Israel finnish there act of Genocide PELTMAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Santlache, you do not and will not give up on your Zionist witch hunt, why do you refuse to see that which is happening and why do you use the rhetoric of "war crimes and the killing of innocents" as a tool? no sane person wishes to see kids hurt or killed but, for the love of god its what these people (hamas) want, yet you refuse to see it? is this a chosen blindness or a one born out of seeing one direction to the point that you genuinely cant see anything else. I genuinely respect your opinion, but it seems you refuse to accept others have theirs, even to the point of attempting to ridicule some others whose points of view are no less important than yours, even if yours do try to gain the moral high ground on a continual basis, Hamas ARE killing Palestinians as are Israeli's hamas ARE welcoming this slaughter, Hamas are indoctrinating hate on a daily basis yet you chose not to condemn this? try opening out those perhaps well meaning but blinkered all the same viewpoints, and try to see why the like's of mysel, feel that Israel MUST gain the upper hand, not only for themselves but indeed for the western world, and not to let the 14th century mentalities of the radical islamists taint mine and YOUR world, as clouded as it is. this is what they want this is what they are getting. sorry to seem harsh but that's the way it is. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HgXCOadVPB4&...feature=related Thank you for your reply. I ridicule someone when they aim a very serious accusation of being an anti-Semite at me, which they have still yet to prove. I am also fully entitled to defend myself against such accusations, and if showing them up is a way of doing it, then they perhaps should have thought about putting such a statement into the discussion. Npw while I don't agree with the extremist aspect of Hamas, I think you are wrong about them. Before having a military wing, Hamas built hospitals, schools and helped families who had lost their homes from Israeli actions and gave them food and shelter This is why they are so popular after the corrupt years of Arafat. Like the IRA they also set up a military wing and a political wing and they are, like it or not, one of if not THE major political players now in Palestine. They don't have tanks and missiles like Israel, they have small arms and primitive rockets in which to fight back with. The other tool available to them comes from the Qu'ran ruling on Jihad, where it clearly states that one is allowed to sacrifice one's life to defend one's country and land against an invader. Now I don't condone this at all especially when it is used against a civilian population, but nevertheless those civilians are also seen as invaders of their land and they are religiously considered legitimate targets. Medieval, certainly, but nevertheless legitimate according to their religion. The woman in the video is rather sad really, years of indoctrination by some Jihad preacher no doubt. But there are also religious Jewish settlers who are like this and believe they have to kill all the Palestinians. Both sides have their religious loonies, and both sides sadly are driven by these people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Why, does David Icke know the nationalities of the Israeli Prime Ministers ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mubz Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 Yes, as soon as the Palestinians stop sending over rockets. and as soon as israel lifts the siege on gaza, hope you didnt forget that no fule/food/medical suplys have been alowd in. this has been going on for quite some time, gaza has no choice but to defend and resist.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 It has just been on the radio that they have agreed in principle to a ceasefire so we can stop talking to the the brick wall and the brick wall can cocentrate on his terriers and maybe even something to do with shooting(not israelis) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 "To show how these people hijacked the Zionist movement " The Zionist Movement was made from these Ashkenazi Jews it was not hijacked. These European elitist jews saw religious jews and common jews as scum, worthless, in that film it even says, the founder of the modern state of Israel Ben Gurion that we need to eradicate the Ultr-Orthodox jews since their customs and beliefs are primitive to the state we want to create. Ben Gurion, who many in Israel regarded as like a national hero can be classed as one of the most anti-semitic poeple since Hitler! And he was a Jew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted January 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 "To show how these people hijacked the Zionist movement " The Zionist Movement was made from these Ashkenazi Jews it was not hijacked. These European elitist jews saw religious jews and common jews as scum, worthless, in that film it even says, the founder of the modern state of Israel Ben Gurion that we need to eradicate the Ultr-Orthodox jews since their customs and beliefs are primitive to the state we want to create. Ben Gurion, who many in Israel regarded as like a national hero can be classed as one of the most anti-semitic poeple since Hitler! And he was a Jew! This is not strictly true. Chief Rabbi Kook (1865-1935) was one of the leading figures in combining religious and political Zionism. He also regarded the conquest of what he considered the ancestral homeland as sacred. Kook was a great admirer of the early Zionist pioneers, and indeed he inherited the mantle from them and went on to encourage religious Jews to establish Kibbutzim. Kook's philosophy was that as long as the Jewish Labour movement remained true to the tribal nationalism of the Zionist founders, like the religious right, they were to be respected as an ally. Kook's one-dimensional view of Zionism, however, was probably one of the reasons for its success. It is also undeniable that his extreme Zionist teachings created a society that became so united it enabled them to actually be in a position to create the Zionist State. But let us not forget, that Zionism has since been woven into the religion and everyday thinking of the Zionist Jew. In the 60's and 70's, especially after the Six-Day War when voices from the central Left and Liberals started to condemn the aggressive right-wing egos that had started to appear, it soon became clear that this rather tricky alliance was no longer possible. Kook's view, and indeed that of his later disciples who are now considered the extreme and religious right, is that peace is in mortal danger if you willingly return even an inch of land to the Arabs. The goal of Zionism was achieved in 1949, but not happy, the ultra religious right wing element want more and fanatically believe in the terms of old books written over 2000 years ago. The disaster of pandering to such lunatics can been seen everyday in the mess that is now Israel. Their Parliament always relies on coalitions to survive, and it's usually the ultra right-wing religious parties who hold the key. To understand Sharon's policy in pulling out of the Gaza with the settlements, which Sharon always said was a dis-engagement from the Peace Process, and Israel later tried to spin as 'giving up land', you only have to look at the writings of Ze'ev Jobotinsky (1880-1940) one of the other major intellectual influences on Israel's right-wing religious parties. I've mentioned this before, one of his articles is called; "On the Iron Wall - We and the Arabs" Which gives you an idea where the illegal fence they've built comes from. Jabotinsky preaches a no-agreement and no surrender Zionist attitude, the Arabs are to be worn down until no resistance or extremist groups exist. "We must suspend our settlement efforts or continue them without paying attention to the mood of the natives. Settlement can thus develop under the protection of a force that is not dependent on the local population, behind an IRON WALL which they will be powerless to break down." This has basically been Zionist policy since the turn of the century and remains so today, certainly under Ariel Sharon it was. If I were to say to you that Gaza was a settlement that could not be protected or secured, and this is why Ariel Sharon has so graciously given it up and then stepped up building on the west Bank, you can clearly see Jabotinsky's principles in action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 I must have a very limited attention span and / or patience because I find that I don't read any post which is more than a dozen lines of text. Some long posts get "scanned" by the eyes, others just get ignored - what I find I do is look to the next "short" post in reply - this normally contains a summary of the previous post and a response. A good post should be capable of being read quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 I must have a very limited attention span and / or patience because I find that I don't read any post which is more than a dozen lines of text. Some long posts get "scanned" by the eyes, others just get ignored - what I find I do is look to the next "short" post in reply - this normally contains a summary of the previous post and a response. A good post should be capable of being read quickly. Agree 100%. I find Vikings latest offering particularly suited to my attention span. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trussman Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 and as soon as israel lifts the siege on gaza, hope you didnt forget that no fule/food/medical suplys have been alowd in. this has been going on for quite some time, gaza has no choice but to defend and resist.. I can't be bothered to argue with you. Except that Hamas could bring food in through their tunnel system, but choose to bring in rockets and weapons instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santlache Posted January 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 (edited) A good post should be capable of being read quickly. On a forum and a shooting discussion, I probably agree. Short, sharp and to the point, unless you are describing something technical which needs a long explanation to clarify it. However, the habit comes from me posting on Usernet since 1996 for ten odd years and participating on a Medieval History discussion group. If you don't explain yourself and your position, with evidence, you soon get jumped on and laughed out of the room. A gallery of vipers waiting to pounce. Sorry if it bored you, it is going rather deep into the subject, but does also illustrate that I am read up on the subject and my position against Zionism is not some Sun reader level assumption. It has been taken over many years as certain things came to light I made a point of finding the facts about. It's a shame a few more people don't make it their business to understand what Zionism is about, as Israel simply being there greatly affects our lives. The very existence of the Zionist State of Israel has cost the world trillions in wars, oil blockades, security plus hundreds of thousands of lives, and has touched each and every one of us whether you like it or not. The truth is not pretty and the accusations that they behave like their former tormentors is well founded, this latest excursion into Gaza has proved that once and for all. The only good reason for supporting Israel is no good reason at all. Edited January 17, 2009 by Santlache Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 This topic has run its course and a good, interesting discussion has taken place, but I fear it is now moving into a "crusade". So, its time to close it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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