David BASC Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 I understand the fire analogy is to make a point, but I am not sure it answers the rather interesting question that was asked, i.e. what law are you breaking if you refuse to obey an officer of the law? Perhaps I was totally wrong (then let me know) when I said that it depends what you are doing and what you are being asked to do like Give my name and address Stop my car Move to another place Keep quiet Go home Put the gun down Put the knife down Let me into your house..and the list goes on I guess. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 babyc1000 Your quote.......... "its all well and good saying the police are bully boys and lazy ******** (and im not disagreeing) but i think its about time some people woke up to the fact that until the police are convinced that you are no longer a threat and they check out that you are legal, you are nothing more than someone carrying a gun who may (or may not) be a danger to them." I feel you are somewhat missing the whole point of the thread. The sort of instances we are talking about are where pigeon shooters surrounded by decoys or chaps lamping who in no way hide their presence due to their use of a ruddy great lamp are approached. Now forgive me if I am a little naive but even a child would recognise that the chap sitting in a hide surrounded by plastic pigeons does not represent a threat significant enough to have him subjected to having guns pointed at him whilst lay on the ground being handcuffed and marched off to the local nick. All we are asking for is for those officers who obviously have to turn out to check to engage their brain, assess the situation correctly and treat us with the respect and civility we deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatstand Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 I see what people are saying and can see their point but having been around guns all my life I don't personally believe there is such a thing as a non lethal round that can be fired out of a firearm just because of the energy involved. Once you start to say that one round is less fatal than another is when tragic avoidable incidents like this one in Manchester happen. All firearms for safety's sake should be treated equally, and lethality taken as granted. I was wondering how I would behave if I was a armed response officer and got a call and upon arriving saw what has been described here. Upon arriving I think it would be quite clear to myself what was happening and would not take the heavy handed approach. Bank robbers, assassins, armed thugs tend not to hang about in fields at night time. I would also go as far to say that if I was the observer in the helicopter I would be able to relay that what was going on was legal to the ground units long before they were at the scene. Maybe I am looking at it too professionally, who knows. Maybe they were just treating it as a exercise at chippy18's expense. I agree with CharlieT though that a certain amount of respect and civility was not shown to this shooting party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 charliet im not missing the point of the thread, but i think youre missing mine. now you said "All we are asking for is for those officers who obviously have to turn out to check to engage their brain, assess the situation correctly and treat us with the respect and civility we deserve." but to me this was not the point of this thread. the point of this was someone looking down the barrel of a policemans gun and refusing to comply with his instructions. imo theyre not going to win any darwin awards for that stunt on top of that reading the original post it seems that they were lamping at dusk/night - ive seen plenty of threads on here lately about illegal lampers using lamps have you not? and how are the police supposed to "assess the situation correctly"? for starters what does that mean? what if its ****** hunting illgally, who wouldnt be too concerned about discharging a gun at the police? the only way they can assess it is once theyre sure youre not a threat to them BY PUTTING DOWN YOUR GUN AND COMPLYING WITH THEIR INSTRUCTIONS. then they can check out that youre legal and will (hopefully) apologise to you and start treating you with the respect you deserve. but you know something? i think its about time us shooters try engaging our brains for once and stop acting like spoilt kids before one of us gets seriousley hurt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 charliet im not missing the point of the thread, but i think youre missing mine. now you said "All we are asking for is for those officers who obviously have to turn out to check to engage their brain, assess the situation correctly and treat us with the respect and civility we deserve." but to me this was not the point of this thread. the point of this was someone looking down the barrel of a policemans gun and refusing to comply with his instructions. imo theyre not going to win any darwin awards for that stunt on top of that reading the original post it seems that they were lamping at dusk/night - ive seen plenty of threads on here lately about illegal lampers using lamps have you not? and how are the police supposed to "assess the situation correctly"? for starters what does that mean? what if its ****** hunting illgally, who wouldnt be too concerned about discharging a gun at the police? the only way they can assess it is once theyre sure youre not a threat to them BY PUTTING DOWN YOUR GUN AND COMPLYING WITH THEIR INSTRUCTIONS. then they can check out that youre legal and will (hopefully) apologise to you and start treating you with the respect you deserve. but you know something? i think its about time us shooters try engaging our brains for once and stop acting like spoilt kids before one of us gets seriousley hurt As a frequent poster of banal poop, I have to take my hat off to this thoughtless piece of work <insert slow handclap> We have gone round in a complete circle and are back with: Police have guns, they point one in my face and tell me to do something, I must obey notwithstanding that a complete idiot at 100 paces could tell I am breaking no law. Well Heil ******* Hitler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 Thank you Mungler...........far more succinctly put than I could have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 On the Shooting Times Web Site there is a poll asking if readers think shooting organisations should do more to educate the police regarding legal fieldsports. Have you voted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) As a frequent poster of banal poop, I have to take my hat off to this thoughtless piece of work <insert slow handclap> We have gone round in a complete circle and are back with: Police have guns, they point one in my face and tell me to do something, I must obey notwithstanding that a complete idiot at 100 paces could tell I am breaking no law. Well Heil ******* Hitler. yes mung, if a cop points a gun in my face i will obey whatever he says, because im not going to end up like that brazillian bloke on the tube just because im not breaking any laws. ill wait til they put their guns down and work out im not breaking the law before i start getting lippy with them. but, if youre willing to take the risk of getting shot then fair play to you, but quick note - even though youre a hot shot solicitor youll have some job suing the cops when your 6ft under in a pine box Edited September 9, 2009 by babbyc1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) I recommend a reasonable approach at all times. However, if I am on my permission, in my tweeds, with my 4x4, my cocker spaniel, my shooting gear, the farmer and am surrounded by dead birds and the police armed response chaps arrive and shout at me to "drop the gun" do I (1) poop my pants and drop my gun or (2) smile broadly and engage in a sensible conversation, starting with my name, confirmation that it is my car at the top of the field, the fact that I am lawfully shooting on private land and carrying out crop protection with a licensed shotgun..... Do I think I would get shot after that? Well, they could just shoot me once I "dropped my gun" anyway I recognise that things are somewhat different in Ireland. Edited September 9, 2009 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 I recommend a reasonable approach at all times. However, if I am on my permission, in my tweeds, with my 4x4, my cocker spaniel, my shooting gear, the farmer and am surrounded by dead birds and the police armed response chaps arrive and shout at me to "drop the gun" do I (1) poop my pants and drop my gun or (2) smile broadly and engage in a sensible conversation, starting with my name, confirmation that it is my car at the top of the field, the fact that I am lawfully shooting on private land and carrying out crop protection with a licensed shotgun..... Do I think I would get shot after that? Well, they could just shoot me once I "dropped my gun" anyway I recognise that things are somewhat different in Ireland. northern ireland mung :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 So a lot of the discussion points seem to relate to the fact that the ARV team may not know that you are an upstanding citizen in any such incident. My concern would relate more to my not knowing the state of mind of the members of the ARV team... Knowing (or at least being an acquaintance of) a copper that went through a very high profile court case for shooting dead a member of the public some years back, and contrasting his impeccable character against some of the "cowboys" I met in the canteen at Lippits Hill around the same time, I would without any reservation fully comply with any reasonable request from an ARV cop. The command to put down my weapon in such a situation counts as a reasonable request in my book. This would not prevent me metaphorically giving them both barrels once my legitimacy had been proven. IMHO the discussion should not be about how you act in such a situation but instead focus on how to prevent such situations arising in the first place. (Apologies if this point has already been made - didn't read through the entire thread) Raja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cushat Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 northern ireland mung :lol: Surely that's "norn ireland"? It never had 2 sylables when I was there :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) This weeks issue of Shooting Times announces their campaign to educate the police on legal shooting sports. The issue contains a leading article on the subject and many other references and readers letters on the subject are included, together with one from a retired ARV officer which makes interesting reading and echoes much of the criticism and points many of us have raised in this thread. Good to see that ST at least take the situation seriously and are acting on our behalf. Shooting Times deserve a big thank you from us all for such initiative. Edited September 10, 2009 by CharlieT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 OOooo I get that delivered at work. When I have my morning sit down, I will have a peruse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 Great! i'll have to buy a copy tomorrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 Great! i'll have to buy a copy tomorrow Then you can photocopy it and send it to a tight Yorkshireman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 scanner and email Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 scanner and email Dave Close enuff. I can do technology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 Surely that's "norn ireland"? It never had 2 sylables when I was there na mate, its norn irn!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 na mate, its norn irn!! Na mate, it's babbyland. (ars, fek, girlz) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 Na mate, it's babbyland. (ars, fek, girlz) it goes "gyurl, fek, ars!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 it goes "gyurl, fek, ars!!" You should know ...................... .................. ....................... ........................... Bogtrotter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 You should know ...................... .................. ....................... ........................... Bogtrotter I SAW THAT!!! ah well i suppose it makes a change from being called a hun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 I SAW THAT!!! ah well i suppose it makes a change from being called a hun... No babs. Your wife calling you hun is a term of endearment. :lol: No need to change to Atillac1000 yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 OOooo I get that delivered at work. When I have my morning sit down, I will have a peruse. No one has mentioned a certain PW member in the shooting times, I phoned them up straight away and cancelled my subscription. Such inaccuracies, there wasn't a single mention of shooting near a kindergarten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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