Drop Your Weapons.

[CharlieT]

This is not an untypical scenario, and we get these on a weekly basis. The police are duty bound to investigate if a member of the public ‘sees someone with a gun’ and reports it, you cannot blame the police for responding, if there is any ‘blame’ it rests with the member of the public who over reacted in the first place.

 

A very good friend of mine, who I shoot with, is an armed response officer, he is very highly trained and when faced with an ‘incident’ the training kicks in and everything is done by the book, regardless of his ‘personal’ view. So I am 100% confident, if ever the ARU turned up to question me and even if my mate was the one pointing the H&K 9mm at my chest- I would do exactly as I was told!

 

OK it is a pian is the *** , but for most of us it is a once in a lifetime experience rather that a regular occurrence.

 

Finally, as I have said before, if anyone wants an urgent response from me on any issue for goodness sake let me know by calling me or e-mail my at the office!

 

D

 

David

 

I must say I am a little disappointed with your reply on behalf of BASC.

 

Whilst I fully agree that the police are both duty and morally bound to respond to such reports. I am sure none of us would suggest they should not respond.

 

However, as reported on here, various other forums and in the shooting press, particularly Shooting Times last week,are not hard arrests and the handcuffing of pigeon shooters and lampers a little excessive and to be frank quite frightening for the poor chap handcuffed.

 

What are BASC's thoughts, policy and response to this trend in the way police respond to sports shooters. What if anything are BASC doing on behalf of their members to help smooth this confrontation. Are the reports in ST correct in that you have rolled out a new educational initiative for the police or do we have to accept the fact that we have to jump and get down in the mud when your pal shouts at us.

[David BASC]

Most certainly BASC have been working with the police to increase their knowledge of shooting sports. Examples of the guidance we send to the police can be found on our web site , here for example: http://www.basc.org.uk/en/departments/fire...fact-sheets.cfm

 

But, and this is the point that evidently I have not made clear – once a call has been made to the police, and the opperational officer at the station has done the relevant checks as best they can to determine exactly what response is warranted, IF he / she decides the best thing to do is send an ARV then that’s what will happen.

 

To be honest put yourself in their position, you would be likely to err on the side of caution and send an ARV rather than ‘risk’ a shooting incident?

 

I have personal experience of this, but from the other side as it were. I has some idiot near to me shooting starlings out of a tree at the bottom or my garden with an air rifle, the pelets were hitting my house and the dead, but more typically injured, birds were falling into my kid’s sand pit.

 

I shouted at the guy to stop, he ignored me, so I called the police, reported the incident. 5 mins later get a call for a Sergeant to ask how I know it was only an airgun, told him about my shooting experience etc, and he said OK, in that case no need for an ARV, and sent two uniformed patrol officers who ‘had a word’ with my neighbour. Problem sorted.

 

Now look at it another way, same scenario- but I have NO shooting experience and I am frightened and intimidated, I call the police to report someone shooting at my house and the bullets are bouncing off my walls….

 

As to information you would like to see in S&C, do you want info on how to respond when approached by an armed officer / helicopter ( very short article entitled ‘Do exactly what they say!’), or more detail of the work that BASC does with the police?

 

Ta

 

David

[bobt]

Good point David.

[CharlieT]

David

 

Thank you for your answer. Much of which I appreciate and understand.

 

As many of us have stated it is not the fact that the police turn out but rather their lack of appreciation of country sports.

 

It's good to know that BASC are addressing the issue. Perhaps it's time for a more concerted vigorous initiative in this respect

[Nial]

> As many of us have stated it is not the fact that the police turn out but rather their lack of appreciation of country sports.

 

 

Don't forget that these days most people live in towns and cities and have no appreciation of

country sports.

 

One of my friends (a doctor) was amazed that I am allowed to keep a shot-gun in the house and

go out shooting in fields whenever I want.

 

My dad was surprised that you're allowed to shoot pigeons, he didn't know they are considered

agricultural pests.

 

Several people I've talked to don't know that with the right license you can go out and

cull deer (or that it needs to be done).

 

Unless you live in the country most peelers are probably townies so will have little appreciation

of what you're up to.

 

 

Nial.

[Gonk]

they do say ignorance is bliss!

[Yellow Bear]

they do say ignorance is bliss!

 

They are also fond of saying that ignorance of the law is no excuse!! On all sides, but how to implement is is the problem?

[unclemicky]

A police man/woman tells me to put down my gun I will do as I'm told

 

and I also like being in BASC as a member

[Mr_Logic]

A couple of points from reading through this thread...

 

1. A lot of people said "ring the police before you go out". That doesn't always work. I have called in before and been given a reference, and STILL Had police sent out to me. So I gave up calling, as round here nobody checks it so *** is the point?

 

2. People say about "it's fair enough for the police to send an ARV". Yes it is. But is the response of the ARV fair enough? I have had the ARV sent out to me when shooting at a recreation ground (rabbits eat and dig up our cricket pitch). They were knowledgable, friendly and courteous. They told the member of the public who had called them to **** off because it was fine that I was shooting there. The next day (I went back to finish what I started before running into the idiot the previous day) I got two traffic boys, who knew **** all and treated me like ****.

 

So in this response - yes send an ARV, but shouting and throwing weapons to the ground? Use your bloody brain lads! It's a farm. There's a landrover there with BASC stickers in it. Is it more likely to be (a) Terrorists practising their late-night shooting skills with a view to a major international incident, or ( two blokes shooting rabbits and whatever. A child of 5 can work that one out, and then both get the job done, but do it courteously and with respect, to avoid upsetting law abiding members of the community.

 

So... education is needed! To keep the status quo is to descend further to the Nazi state that Brown wants to create.

 

David of the BASC, I am very worried that the BASC's viewpoint is that police responses such as this are fair enough - I'm a member of the BASC; I expect them to fight overreactions like this, and to uphold the law - from both sides. Shooters are entitled to liberty too. We are NOT the spawn of satan, we are voters going about our legal business. Since the Government won't see this, please can the BASC, and then try to educate our fascist dictatorship?

[silpig5]

A couple of points from reading through this thread...

 

1. A lot of people said "ring the police before you go out". That doesn't always work. I have called in before and been given a reference, and STILL Had police sent out to me. So I gave up calling, as round here nobody checks it so *** is the point?

 

 

as cranfield and many others have pointed out , this is very much a regional thing.

 

fortunatly norfolk police do listen to calls , give out ref numbers and know about country sports .

 

i myself am thankfully lucky to have never had bad police contact whilst shooting .

 

gutted for you guys though , its obviously a problem that some of us cant apreciate.

[mr salt]

People say about "it's fair enough for the police to send an ARV". Yes it is. But is the response of the ARV fair enough? I have had the ARV sent out to me when shooting at a recreation ground (rabbits eat and dig up our cricket pitch). They were knowledgable, friendly and courteous. They told the member of the public who had called them to **** off because it was fine that I was shooting there. The next day (I went back to finish what I started before running into the idiot the previous day) I got two traffic boys, who knew **** all and treated me like ****

 

 

I know just what you mean by this,

You can see from minute one that its pest control and not kids mucking around.

 

 

Back to the point.

 

If you are told to drop it by armed police pointing guns at you.

 

Its fine to slowly place the gun on the floor.you not have to throw it to floor .

This is also the time to tell them you are carrying a knife also,and put that down as well.

 

Just do as you are told,if you have guns pointed at you.

 

cheers scott

[David BASC]

It is very regional as has been said, and in my opinion yes in most cases the arv response is fair enough they are following standard operating procedures.

 

Where there are ‘hot spots’ that we are made aware of BASC will work with the police as much as possible. For example, here is a BASC press release from yesterday:

 

BASC Northern Ireland has been asked to advise police officers about wildfowling activities on Strangford Lough as part of the police service’s training programme.

 

The opportunity to participate in PSNI’s ‘Schools of Instruction’ came about as a result of the successful launch of a new poster which shows police officers and the public what a wildfowler may look like and why they go on the Lough.

BASC’s director for Northern Ireland, Roger Pollen, said: “The poster has been very well received by all the wildfowling clubs on Strangford Lough, particularly the Joint Council and this training opportunity is a further positive step to increasing awareness about wildfowling activities on the Lough.”

Sgt Ivan Shaw of PSNI said: “We are very pleased that BASC staff will be able to advise officers about wildfowling activities as this education will be beneficial to both sides. I believe that the poster and this additional training for officers will help create a better relationship between local police and wildfowlers.”

 

David

[Cushat]

Now look at it another way, same scenario- but I have NO shooting experience and I am frightened and intimidated, I call the police to report someone shooting at my house and the bullets are bouncing off my walls….

 

Surely you are not comparing "bullets bouncing off your walls" (even if they are only air rifle pellets) with two blokes walking around the countryside carrying guns?? You've got to be joking? One is acceptable and lawful, the other isn't!!!

 

BASC should continue their work to educate the police and general public as to what goes on in the countryside and not to condone the police stopping shooters undertaking a lawful activity.

 

Articles in S&C are preaching to the converted - what about getting an article in a police journal - sure each force must have some sort of monthly/quarterly newsletter??

[Paul223]

David I feel BASC, and the other shooting organizations come to that, should be doing a lot more about this, while at the moment most of these situations end without incident the day will come when somebody will get seriously hurt, if not killed.

 

I can see a situation developing where criminals will use these police tactics to gain firearms / shotguns and then we will have paranoid shooters who will be unwilling to 'throw down your weapons', refusing to cooperate with police.

 

Or someone will take the 'throw down your weapon' request 'as is' and a negligent discharge will result in several 9mm holes in the shooter. Itchy finger syndrome.

 

It is a very foolish system that allows law abiding people to be put in this position

[David BASC]

Of course I am not comparing this with a person our say rabbit shooting with somone blatently doing wrong, my point was that the controller in the police station has to act based on what they are told by the caller. My example was to show how the same scenario could have two different outcomes, depending on what the controller is told by the caller.

 

To draw perhaps another example of two guys walking up a hedge ...

 

Caller says ‘ I have just seen two men with guns walking up a hedgerow towards Simpsons Farm, acting suspiciously as they keep ducking below the hedge top to keep out of sight’

 

Could this be you and me out after rabbit or pigeon or is it two bad lads about to rob the farm? Ok chances are it is you and me out and about doing nothing illegal at all, but what if it wasn’t and the farm was robbed? And the police had done nothing, and it came out the call had been made…. Given a call like htis the police will always respond.

 

I agree absolutely that putting stuff into S&C is preaching to the converted, and yes as I have said we will do more with the police. Yes there must be a police journal and this would be a perfect place to put such an article, maybe even a regular feature from BASC … I will investigate.

 

David

[Mr_Logic]

And to be honest all of that is fine, but my point stands - an ARV doesn't need to shout the odds, and they don't need to treat us like scum. What exactly is wrong with "Afternoon sir, do you have your details with you please as we have had a call from the member of the public which we are obliged to check out?"

 

Or even, "Excuse me sir, please can you put down your weapon while I verify who you are?" None of which is helicopters, search lights and gruff behaviour; it's not called for and I would like the BASC to make damn sure that "operational procedures" are changed. It's fine if you're knocking down the door of a criminal, but it's not fine if you're on a farm or in the country and the odds are massively in favour of a lawful shooter.

[Guest]

When you go about your lawful business you shouldn't have to be barked at by any police officer. The police should use common sense and realise that soem guy in a field is unlikely to be a bankrobber or a terrorist.

[BlaserF3]

And to be honest all of that is fine, but my point stands - an ARV doesn't need to shout the odds, and they don't need to treat us like scum. What exactly is wrong with "Afternoon sir, do you have your details with you please as we have had a call from the member of the public which we are obliged to check out?"

 

Or even, "Excuse me sir, please can you put down your weapon while I verify who you are?" None of which is helicopters, search lights and gruff behaviour; it's not called for and I would like the BASC to make damn sure that "operational procedures" are changed. It's fine if you're knocking down the door of a criminal, but it's not fine if you're on a farm or in the country and the odds are massively in favour of a lawful shooter.

 

Excellent post.

 

The police have no need to act like they do but that is how they are trained to act, but it proves that they don't have much common sense either in assesing a legal scenario.

 

Never forget that NO firearms officer has ever been convicted of shooting an innocent civilian.

 

Personaly I wouldn't trust some of the police to be armed with a pencil.

[viking]

You are far to materialistic(sp) by the sounds of things.

 

If I was told to put down anything by gun weilding plods, then there is no way I would answer back, A pair of Purdy's would get slung if they shouted loud enough.

 

[al4x]

And to be honest all of that is fine, but my point stands - an ARV doesn't need to shout the odds, and they don't need to treat us like scum. What exactly is wrong with "Afternoon sir, do you have your details with you please as we have had a call from the member of the public which we are obliged to check out?"

 

Or even, "Excuse me sir, please can you put down your weapon while I verify who you are?" None of which is helicopters, search lights and gruff behaviour; it's not called for and I would like the BASC to make damn sure that "operational procedures" are changed. It's fine if you're knocking down the door of a criminal, but it's not fine if you're on a farm or in the country and the odds are massively in favour of a lawful shooter.

 

 

look at it another way, you're a police officer the information you have is a man in camo with gun plus whatever else they get told. This is the good bit as the public seem to be quite creative and say they were frightened by or he was shooting at them etc etc some is complete fabrication and can stem from being upset at our past time etc.

Back to the Police they get told someones got a real firearm and they have the job of approaching you and they don't know if you're legitimate or not. So they send everything out and they tell you what to do until they clarify things. It will all be standard procedure and BASC or your MP isn't going to make them act any differently simply beacause they have a job to do.

Ok you can get reasonable after but you can't knock them for taking control of the situation in the way they are trained to because the next shout they go to may not be a legitimate shooter and may take a pop at them.

All that can be done is a bit of education as to how to spot a pigeon shooter or someone out lamping but after that you're in their hands

[BlaserF3]

I for one do not believe that a full Armed Response Team need to be fully tooled up just because some one is reported walking in a field carrying a gun. Today's society is mainly anti gun and that include the Police.

 

I remember a few years ago a bank in Windermere was robbed and assault weapons were fired inside the building...the armed response team were nowhere to be seen.

 

They like easy pickings and legitimate shooters are easy results to justify using helicopters and the like because we do not shoot back.

 

Just imagine the carnage if a deerstalker started shooting the helicopter down and then took the Police out.

 

The Police force that we have today is a sad shell of it's former self and it will get worse as time goes on.

[al4x]

there was an officer shot by an FAC holder not so long ago with a CF weapon, ok as part of a domestic but it still happened and I think it was a non armed police officer.

[Mungler]

Context dear boy, context.

 

In a field, wearing shooting gear, with a dog, shooting truck up the top of the lane, land owner there (similarly kitted out), in a hide and surrounded by floaters, bouncers and dead pigeons....... oh yes, maximum threat level 11

 

Even if an exaggerated report came in to the control room, one would have hoped that a 10 second "on the ground evaluation" would make the officer concerned realise that the commando roll, shouting and gun in face approach was not appropriate.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Mungler

[Guest]

"David of the BASC, I am very worried that the BASC's viewpoint is that police responses such as this are fair enough - I'm a member of the BASC; I expect them to fight overreactions like this, and to uphold the law - from both sides. Shooters are entitled to liberty too. We are NOT the spawn of satan, we are voters going about our legal business. Since the Government won't see this, please can the BASC, and then try to educate our fascist dictatorship?"

 

I am afraid it is attitudes like these why I will probably not renew my shooting membership to BASC next year.

[Guest]

"This is also the time to tell them you are carrying a knife also,and put that down as well."

 

Yeah i would tell them where the knife is and tell them to take it out of my pocket, I do not want to get peppered by an MP5 for putting a hand in my pocket. Bad advice.