hendersons Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 If i was to go shooting abroad and happened to bump into a rifle I fancied that I had a slot for on my F.A.C. would it be possible for me to buy it and bring it back. How would I do this would I just follow the same procedure as I would if I was buying from a U.K. based rfd. This is purely hypothetical at the moment but you never know as my better half is from Slovakia and I keep getting offers of going over there shooting, Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 As far as I'm aware you would buy it out there and customs will write it onto your FAC when you get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) Your only real problem would be could you legally purchase the gun in the country you were visiting . I have in the past bought shotguns and rifles from the states and brought them back to the uk with me . Providing you have a slot on your ticket for a rifle I carnt see it being a problem . Just go throught he red light at customs and declare them . Or you could have an RFD meet you at the airport and hand it over to him to be put on your ticket at a later date . Dont know how much it would cost thou . Harnser . Edited November 24, 2009 by Harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineshooter Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Harnser`s right, chap in our club brought a shotgun back from Turkey, declared it at customs and they did the rest with his cert, (naughty though, he got a low value reciept so as not to pay so much duty). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendersons Posted November 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) if i called feo from other country or sent him the paperwork special delivery could he just put on my cert so then i was legal for my return and if it is a gift from my brother in law would i still have to pay the tax. Or this has just come to me could the rfd over there transfer to a rfd over here nick Edited November 24, 2009 by hendersons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdb Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Harnser`s right, chap in our club brought a shotgun back from Turkey, declared it at customs and they did the rest with his cert, (naughty though, he got a low value reciept so as not to pay so much duty). I see the point about duty if you're importing a new gun, but what happens if I buy a gun abroad, use it a bit over there (so it's not strictly new any more) then bring it back with me? Am I not just transporting a firearm rather than importing it so no duty would be due? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rem223 Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) I see the point about duty if you're importing a new gun, but what happens if I buy a gun abroad, use it a bit over there (so it's not strictly new any more) then bring it back with me? Am I not just transporting a firearm rather than importing it so no duty would be due? Duty would be payable if you bought it outside the EU together with VAT charged on the duty added to the purchase price. Inside the EU just VAT on the purchase price. The idea that a gun would be second hand because you fired a few shots through it would give Customs a good laugh. Bear in mind you have to get it on your ticket so as far as they are concerned it's a new gun. I wouldn't recommend trying a dodgy invoice either. You might get lucky, but given how easy it is to look things up on the internet now you could come unstuck. How would you feel if they siezed it? How would you like to explain that to your FEO? Edited November 24, 2009 by Rem223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendersons Posted November 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 I dont mind paying the tax but what if it was a gift from my brother in law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineshooter Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 I think you still have to pay tax, even if its a gift, how do you prove it, and if you have to have a slot on your ticket, you already knew Santa was comming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 I think you still have to pay tax, even if its a gift, how do you prove it, and if you have to have a slot on your ticket, you already knew Santa was comming I think all us grown ups have a grip on what time of year Santa comes, also what month of the year is your birthday, as far as I know you can not know the value of a gift therefore no tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineshooter Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 Ok yes, but how do you prove to customs it`s a gift anyone can trow the reciept away and say it was given to me, you are supposed to declare gifts on your tax returns form in case tax is due. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rem223 Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 as far as I know you can not know the value of a gift therefore no tax. Good luck with that! I worked for Customs in a previous life. If you turn up in the red channel and claim no knowledge of the value they will assess it for you. It isn't difficult. Years ago before the internet we used to have a list of values of common goods like Rolex watches say. If we were suspicious of the goods we could detain them and send them off to be independantly assessed. Nowadays it is childs play to put a serial number or description in Google and come up with values. Whilst there are duty and VAT free allowances, on something like a gun you are going to be way over the limit. It is irrelevant if it is a gift or you bought it yourself. If you are importing it you are liable to VAT and possibly duty. If you refuse to pay they will seize it and store it in the Queen's warehouse till you either cough up or they sell/dispose of it. In the case of a firearm as I noted above you have to have it entered on your FAC which they will only do after you have paid the relevant import taxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 Brilliant informative thread by the way ! Just one question ? The rifle or said shotgun will not be proofed to british standerds as I understand it. Will it need a trip to the proof house before said item is sold on at a later date ? Dumb question I know to those in the know but I really don't know and its an interesting addition to cost at a later date when the rifle/shotty is to be moved on. Cheers lads Forgive my dumbness Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 Can't help with the proof question. However, I can tell you that you cannot go to the US and buy the guns. What Harnser describes would be illegal for you to do right now (don't know when he did it) as a British national. In the US, non immigrant aliens (i.e. visitors from abroad) cannot take possession of firearms and ammo with the exception of ammunition while on a hunting trip with the appropriate hunting license. You could purchase a gun there, but it would have to be shipped directly to a dealer in the UK as you would not be allowed to take possession of it while in the US. Doesn't matter if you are buying it from a dealer or private individual. You also could not receive one as a gift from a US citizen. Thanks, Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineshooter Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 Accordind to my Rfd some proof marks are accepted here without the need for reproofing I think some of the Italian stuff is ok and not sure if Cz is too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 Can't help with the proof question. However, I can tell you that you cannot go to the US and buy the guns. What Harnser describes would be illegal for you to do right now (don't know when he did it) as a British national. In the US, non immigrant aliens (i.e. visitors from abroad) cannot take possession of firearms and ammo with the exception of ammunition while on a hunting trip with the appropriate hunting license. You could purchase a gun there, but it would have to be shipped directly to a dealer in the UK as you would not be allowed to take possession of it while in the US. Doesn't matter if you are buying it from a dealer or private individual. You also could not receive one as a gift from a US citizen. Thanks, Rick Rick , I last time I brought a gun back from the states was about 10 years ago . I was not able to legaly purchase the gun myself ,my cousin bought the gun (shotgun ) and kept it at his house untill I returned to the uk . My family live in niagara falls new york and are on the usa canada border . When I returned home my cousin drove me up to toronto airport and when we arrived at the airport I took the gun directly to security and they checked it in for my flight to the uk . I got a bill of sale from my cousin for the full purchase price of the gun I had no intention of trying to make the gun look cheaper than I had paid for it . When I arrived at Heathrow I went to security and claimed the gun which was in a travelling case and then went through the red light at customs and declared the gun . The gun was checked over by the customs guy , I was charged ,If I remember correctly £35 .00 duty , The gun cost me $600 and was worth about £700 when I bought it . I walked out of the terminal with the cased gun and made my way home . No problems at all . Incidently I have done this on 4 other occations . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Harnser, I would advise against doing it again for you and anyone else looking at this thread. What you've described is illegal on a couple counts just based on the US side of the law. I don't know what the canadians say, but I would suspect you broke a few rules there also. What I'm quoting below is current law, but it was first written in 1993. I don't know what was in force there for export laws, but this is the current situation. Specifically for the US: (edited down to the relevant sections) § 123.17 Exports of firearms and ammunition. © Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection shall permit U.S. persons to export temporarily from the United States without a license not more than three nonautomatic firearms in Category I(a) of §121.1 of this subchapter and not more than 1,000 cartridges therefor, provided that: 3) They must be for that person's exclusive use and not for reexport or other transfer of ownership. The foregoing exemption is not applicable to a crew-member of a vessel or aircraft unless the crew-member declares the firearms to a Customs officer upon each departure from the United States, and declares that it is his or her intention to return the article(s) on each return to the United States. It is also not applicable to the personnel referred to in §123.18. So first the export bit. Your friend was fine in that he took the guns out of the US (into Canada) without an export permit. The problem was when he transferred ownership to you. That is expressly against the export license exemption. Second, your friend made a straw purchase. That is ATF federal law. The law states (paraphrasing) that it is illegal for a private individual to sell a firearm to another private individual from a different state or country without going through a Federal Firearms dealer. Straw purchases are being cracked down on especially at the moment, so there is no leeway on the matter. As I said, I don't know the laws of Canada as well as the US laws. However, a quick search of the Canadian Firearms center website says that for permanent export of firearms you need to file a delcaration and pay taxes. That is for firearms acquired in Canada (which you did). Also, to legally acquire a firearm in Canada you need to have a PAL (possession and acquisition license) which you did not. And, transfers of ownership of firearms must be approved by a CFO. So all told what you guys did was highly illegal and could land both of you in serious prison time should you get caught trying to do it again. http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/v...-visite-eng.htm Thanks, Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timb Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 You might have the correct slot on your licence, but Customs might well want to check the serial number - and there won't be one to check against. You will probably have the weapon detained pending confirmation of your entitlement from your local Police forces firearms dept. I hve personal experience of this, and it takes a long long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Just looked on my benelli and franchi, neither of them have british proof marks and both have been bought thru GMK, so i cant see how proofing would affect anything. spares might be a pain if its not a uk import model tho. unless it's a home made gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palombier Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Hendersons If you are intending to go abroad to an Eu country you can apply for an Article 7 Authority from your local licensing dept. (free) this gives you the right to purchase rifles or shotguns. Regards P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 You might have the correct slot on your licence, but Customs might well want to check the serial number - and there won't be one to check against. You will probably have the weapon detained pending confirmation of your entitlement from your local Police forces firearms dept. I hve personal experience of this, and it takes a long long time. For firearms purchased abroad, customs should be the one to add it to your ticket. There won't be a serial number to check against, just an open slot. They should add it on, you pay the import/VAT as applicable, and move along. That's how it is supposed to work. If you were delayed by them wanting to check with your local FLD, then they didn't do things right. Doesn't make it any better that you had to wait because they were wrong though. Thanks, Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeker Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 (edited) Hi I think Slovakia is in the EU? If so there is a procedure that might apply, using a Form EU 21 for the transfer of firearms between member states.....? Last year I had a rifle from a German Gunsmith: before I collected he filled in the form at his local firearms registry to include details of my FAC. They sent a copy to UK customs who winged it to my local Police HQ .... they phoned me to check some info ... put it on my record and Europass so I could collect. They said the German Gunsmith should put it on my FAC when I collected.... done. If he had not done so I was told to ask Customs to make the entry. I declared it at UK Customs who checked my FAC and EU21 and on my way. Sale in Germany so VAT paid at their rate (19%). There is reference to this in the Home Office Guidance to the Police on Firearms and what was the Dept of Trade website. But your local FLO should have access to the info and I checked with mine them I started...they were very helpful and on the ball. It was a fairly straightforward process. Germany proof is to CIP standards, the same as used and recognised by most of Europe & UK Hope this info helps Edited November 26, 2009 by seeker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.