What do you think about this answer ?

[Billy.]

You said that in a crowded environment that a semi auto is unsafe, at a clay shoot there are a lot more people about.

 

We do live in a world where there are a lot of unemployed teenagers about who are on benefits and they go to any formal occasion in the smartest clothes that they posses for everyday wear.

 

Yes and I also deem a S/A an unsafe shotgun at a clay ground, but that is a different thread and I have gone on about that for ages.

 

So the unemployed teenagers can't source a suit because they're on benefits? If even the poorest of poor people were asked to dress up for a special occasion, they would make the effort. Especially if they didn't want to offend someone or have an opportunity for the occasion to come about again. (For a positive thing, not a funeral or the like)

 

Clearly this sounds as if we're talking about clothes. However I am sure you wear nice and appropriate clothes when you go on the driven day, just like you should take an appropriate shotgun.

Edited December 26, 2009 by harfordwmj

[shot shot]

ok, lets take this from a different perspective. What if the person in question is a newcomer to sport, or a guest. Do you honestly expect that they're going to get a good first impression if you start demanding they don't wear this and wear that, or that they're gun isn't good enough??

[BlaserF3]

harfordwmj,

 

May I ask what gives you the right to deem any type of gun unsafe anywhere, do you have some superior knowledge about what is a safe or unsafe gun, when any gun is safe till handled incorrectly or foolishly.

 

I am not offended by individuals clothes either so why are you?

 

Many of the rich and famous dress like scruffs.

[George1990]

there's a time and a place for everything. Somehow the day wouldn't be same if they all turned up in jeans and white trainers with s/a's. I'd like an s/a for vermin control, but wouldn't want to see one on a FORMAL shoot.

 

Keep traditions going. Christmas cards are already saying 'winter wishes' to appease the fuzzy-wuzzies etc

[Chard]

What I don't understand about the cloth cap brigade is why they can't stomach tradition. If you're told that participation in a particular sport requires a dress code or use of certain equipment, then just accept it. If not, invest the cash and arrange your own shell-suit and pump action only day.

 

I wouldn't use a safety argument, I just accept that tradition dictates a dress code and use of the right gun.

 

I don't participate, I've never been asked. If I was, I would either decline or get the right gear. I don't understand why the cloth cap brigade always want to drag everything down to their level and can't accept that other people choose to have standards. You don't have to accept the same standards if you don't want to, but you'll have to accept that you won't be welcome. If someone comes to my house, gets drunk and pukes on my carpet, I will hit them with a blunt instrument and throw them out. They will have fallen short of my standards, there's no difference.

 

Anybody who knows me or has shot with me could confirm that I am a scruffy *** and certainly don't dress for effect. I'm certainly not a snob I also don't look at myself in front of the mirror cranking my Mossberg and doing commando rolls, which, joking aside, I am CONVINCED goes on in the tactical households. All these pistol gripped pumps have seen more mirrors than cartridges. There's no place for this nonsense in the countryside, let alone on a driven day.

Edited December 26, 2009 by Chard

[mpk]

hi guys ....getting pretty heated in here !!!!!! so thought id put my 10 bob in lol . Im relitivley new to the sport and i own a sbs only, i will get a semi auto eventually and use this for wildfowling and maybe clays if the club permits because i can apprieciate that the cartridges do eject quite a distance and it probably get annoying . On the fact of semi autos bin unsafe i think its the same with any gun admittedly it is harder to see that a s/a is unloaded but on the flipside you should be aware of were your muzzles are pointed at all times. I remember the first thing i was ever told by an old friend" treat all guns like a loaded gun because once you pull that trigger it will never come back" so surely we could pick holes in all guns but they are all dangerouse in there own ways. My dad and my grandad both shoot driven game and they would never think of walking on a driven day with a semi auto not out of snobbyness but out of respect for what the captain prefers. Maybe in years to come the s/a would progress like the o/u has done and be permitted more often but until then sbs/o/u for driven game s/a for wildfowling/vermin.

[Catamong]

Many of the rich and famous dress like scruffs.

 

Yes, and that's up to them, but they wouldn't be allowed to play at my golf club, nor shoot on any of my driven days, if they want to stick two fingers up at the "rulebook" of etiquette and tradition, they'd get no further than the car park.

 

Cat.

Edited December 26, 2009 by Catamong

[Billy.]

harfordwmj,

 

May I ask what gives you the right to deem any type of gun unsafe anywhere, do you have some superior knowledge about what is a safe or unsafe gun, when any gun is safe till handled incorrectly or foolishly.

 

I am not offended by individuals clothes either so why are you?

 

Many of the rich and famous dress like scruffs.

 

A gun that requires safety flags, plugs and warnings that it's not loaded clearly points to it being a gun that is not safe. I'm not saying that it'll go off without you wanting it to. It's just that it doesn't open like other guns and can therefore be considered loaded from afar. Some people with S/A don't have a clue how to hold them and end up holding them under the arm, thus making them look like a locked and loaded sbs or O/U.

 

I am not saying that I am offended by the clothes that people wear, I am just offended if someone does not make the effort to dress for an occasion. I don't think I am out of order saying that and therefore I would be offended if a person turned up on one of my shoot days (theoretically, if I had a shoot) with a S/A or pump action.

 

As said above, make your own s/a or pump action shoot day if you want those and you can also get an opportunity to clad yourself in camo.

Edited December 26, 2009 by harfordwmj

[BlaserF3]

Sorry I cannot agree with your problem that semi auto's are inherently unsafe, I have shot small bore pistols, full bore pistols, target rifle and shotguns both U/O and semi autos over the last 30 years and I have always been seen to be safe.

 

I do not use flags etc; as they are not necessary if any gun is handled correctly.

[Billy.]

I do not use flags etc; as they are not necessary if any gun is handled correctly.

 

You've clearly missed the point. Flags etc are to show OTHERS that the gun is unloaded. You might be the safest person in the world at handling a shotgun, but it still looks like a loaded gun from afar.

 

Anyway, this is swinging away from the topic. I would hate to see this thread get closed...! Haha

[libs]

Sorry I cannot agree with your problem that semi auto's are inherently unsafe, I have shot small bore pistols, full bore pistols, target rifle and shotguns both U/O and semi autos over the last 30 years and I have always been seen to be safe.

 

I do not use flags etc; as they are not necessary if any gun is handled correctly.

 

 

Not necessary for who, yourself or thoese twitching around you?

 

 

 

There always comes a point where a gun has to be moved from; being held > being loaded > being mounted. And with an O/U or sbs the gun is visually safe whilst it is being loaded, and it is only at the point when the gun is closed it becomes able to be fired. A semi, is always 'closed' and therefore to the casual observer seems always ready to fire, more so if there is no bright orange flag/plug in the breach, but again these can not often be seen at distance and are questionable.

[BlaserF3]

No you do not understand gun safety, when carrying a gun or on a firing point the muzzles are always kept pointing in a safe direction at all times whether loaded or not.

 

Game shooters are notorious for walking around with closed guns, but at a clay ground people know that the safe way is to break on O/U and carry a semi in a vertical position or in a slip.

 

If you are seen to be unsafe some one will more than likely tell you, if you carry on being unsafe you will be told to leave.

[libs]

No you do not understand gun safety,

 

 

I work part time at a clay shooting school, I sorta have to

 

 

And I am not accusing you, or any other selfloader owner of being unsafe, but I have felt the horrible sinking feeling more than enough times whilst at clayshoots (theres only really 3 I go to). Its not nice, and will make anyone very nervous I am sure.

 

I talk of course of having the pleasure of seeing how clean a semi-owner keeps his barrel from the muzzle end, and anyone else who has seen this will confirm its not a nice experience.

[groach1234]

Its like that tweed and camo thread from about 6 months back you have the respectful traditionalists who understand the idea of tradition in driven game and these bloody charlatans who seem not to gauge the idea of tradition barking on about how it is snobish and who some times come across as the inverse snob. Simply accept that driven game is the place for O/U and S/S and clays, vermin and possibly walked up is good for the semi autos however i must add that i feel it would be deemed acceptable for a person to shoot a semi on game if the need for reduced recoil was present for a health reason as then it is not a question of choice but need.

 

George

[BlaserF3]

libs,

 

Do you never tell these people who muzzle sweep you that what they are doing is dangerous?

 

I will not put up with unsafe handling by anyone, they are always told that it is unsafe and that if carries on I make sure that the ground owner knows who it was.

 

When we shot pistols I became an RCO and the course opened my eyes to the situations that could arise at any time, the scariest ones are rifles that have a live round in the chamber but the bolt will not open or the U/O that has two cartridges loaded, one gets fired but the second one will not fire, what does one do next.

 

I have been muzzle swept by two shooters with pistols, they were asked to leave the range and not come back.

 

All shooters should be responsible for each others safety at all times irrespective of what type of gun that we chose to shoot, the Government of my time has banned enough guns I would not like to see any more taken away from me.

[BlaserF3]

George,

 

Twenty years ago that situation did arise at a game shoot and the Gun was allowed to shoot a semi auto but the keeper did ask him just to load two cartridges.

[utectok]

of the ten guns on my shoot I have only seen a couple of the guys guns close up as they are usually in slips unless on the pegs noboby seems to ask or show off all very low key. I don't believe the gun you shoot matters jot but then I shoot with no tie on and some would say that's herasey!

[fullbore]

I dare you to turn up to a black tie/formal meeting/funeral/wedding/etc etc wearing a hood and jeans. It's just not the done thing. Nor is a semi auto on a driven day. You don't have to be snobby to own an o/u or a sbs and I can guarantee you that you can get hold of these much much cheaper that a S/A.

 

If you can't afford sub £100 for a gun, then borrow one. If I was invited on a driven day and I didn't have the 'correct' gun, I would ask. I'm pretty sure a few of my mates who shoot would be happy to lend me their gun for the day. However if you've got the money to pay for a day's shooting, you've got the money to buy a proper gun.

 

 

 

Say what you like, but S/A's are unsafe within a crowded environment, look like a 'warrior's' gun and make the shooter look like they have no respect for the tradition of a driven day. There is no snobbishness there, just respect for the privilege that you are allowed to shoot game birds on a farmer's land.

Now who's making who laugh a day shooting at birds is not and should not be compared to a funeral, and how can ANY inanimate object be unsafe, and once again you think you have the right to tell anyone how and when they should spend their money

[fullbore]

"I have seen people who cannot afford a suit wear jeans and a shirt at a wedding and a funeral, it's called respect and they cannot help it if they do not have the money.

 

I do not believe that we live in a world where someone cannot afford a suit or something formal. If I needed to dress up for something and I couldn't afford the clothes, I would beg, steal and borrow to ensure I was correctly dressed.

 

Who is to DICTATE another person is correctly dressed and please don't steal a gun to impress some other snottier than you oik

[fullbore]

What I don't understand about the cloth cap brigade is why they can't stomach tradition. If you're told that participation in a particular sport requires a dress code or use of certain equipment, then just accept it. If not, invest the cash and arrange your own shell-suit and pump action only day.

 

Not snobbish at all then eh? And I have no interest in shooting semi tame birds that are driven over me, I much prefer to hunt my quarry for myself, I don't own a pump action nor have I any desire to do so but then again I have no desire to force my opinion down others throats either

The reason the government was able to get away with taking handguns and other firearms away from legitimate users was the divisions that exist within the sport. the old "it doesn't affect me so I don't care attitude" Seems no lessons were learned from that then!

Edited December 27, 2009 by fullbore

[Billy.]

Fullbore, do you really think I was using shooting and a funeral as a simile? I was using an example of other situations where you would be required to be dressed appropriately, which is an example of an occasion where you would be frowned upon if you turned up not looking the part, which in turn relates to taking a S/A on a driven day.

 

Also, I said: beg, steal and borrow about clothes. Not guns.

 

I wouldn't need to get a suitable gun, because I own a shotgun which is right for a driven day. HOWEVER if I had a letter through from the Queen, asking me to shoot on her land, on a driven day, I would go and buy a sbs. I wouldn't be the snob you're making me out to be, I'd probably only spend £120, but at least I would not look a complete idiot when I'm stood there in a line of guns and everyone else has a sbs.

 

As the saying goes, 'it's better to be over-dressed, than under-dressed'

 

"and how can ANY inanimate object be unsafe" I can count endless inanimate objects that are unsafe. I mean, uranium is inanimate, but I bet you wouldn't stand next to a block of it...

 

I actually have the right to say anything. You may or may not chose to listen to it and I can safely assure you that anything I do say doesn't have to be followed. Therefore I am not instructing people on when or how to spend their money, as it's their decision.

 

Clearly you have a little chip on your shoulder about the upper class...

[fullbore]

Also, I said: beg, steal and borrow about clothes. Not guns.

 

 

"and how can ANY inanimate object be unsafe" I can count endless inanimate objects that are unsafe. I mean, uranium is inanimate, but I bet you wouldn't stand next to a block of it...

 

I actually have the right to say anything. You may or may not chose to listen to it and I can safely assure you that anything I do say doesn't have to be followed. Therefore I am not instructing people on when or how to spend their money, as it's their decision.

 

Clearly you have a little chip on your shoulder about the upper class...

 

Theft, of anything, and firearms ownership do not make good bed mates.

Uranium is hardly likely to be present in a shooting line up, be it clays or pheasants, so don't worry if you see a closed container of uranium at your shoot, it occurs naturally, it is only dangerous, like guns, when man has had his hands on it

Yes you have the right to say anything, but you are telling people how to spend their money, to fit someone elses ideas n what should and should not be.

It's not the upper class (do they still exist in todays supposedly classless society) I am talking about, it is outdated ideas, snobbery looking the part whilst not BEING the part etc

[Billy.]

Oh my good god. Fullbore, you have to appreciate that a conversation can use examples that do not have anything to do with the subject at hand. You seem to believe that every example used here has to relate to and be seen on a driven pheasant shoot...

 

I took your ridiculous statement about 'ANY inanimate object' and used an outside example to prove what a stupid statement that was.

 

If it's easier for you to comprehend, I will use an inanimate object that you would find on a driven day, seeing as your narrow minded retort didn't seem to include an appreciation of my shining example of a dangerous inanimate object.

 

I'm going to sound patronising here, because I'm going to try to get your imagination working away to picture this.

 

'You are on a driven day and you've been asked to take peg 8, which stands you right on the corner of a wood. As you approach your peg, you notice an inanimate object: an old dead tree with visibly rotten branches.

 

As you approach it, the rook that was perched on a branch quickly flies away and the tree creeks and a cracking sound emits from the trunk, connected to the branch...

 

Unfortunately your peg is directly below this dangerous branch and you think to yourself that it would be pretty unsafe to stand under it, as it looks like it could easily kill you if it broke and fell on you.'

 

That is a perfect example of an unsafe inanimate object, which you would find on a driven shoot. I hope you can now relate this to your comment "and how can ANY inanimate object be unsafe" and realise you were very, very wrong.

Edited December 27, 2009 by harfordwmj

[scolopax]

I am lucky enough to go on a fair few game shoots, mainly as a beater on bigger days, and also go on a fair few stand/walk shoots as a gun. Very very rarely see an auto on any sort of game day, and if you do its in the hands of a one off guest and a novice to game shooting. Using a double barrelled shotgun is just tradition and long may it continue.

[beatingisbest]

harfordwmj and garyb

 

I cannot agree with what you have to say more!

 

Babby has already said in other posts that shooting pheasants out of trees with a shotgun is totally fine so i think all he has to say on traditionalist threads is rubbish.

 

Those that say "why should o/u's be allowed on formal shoot days" at the end of the day they have very similar workings to a s/s really, no gas struts no CHUNG CHUNG type hollywood sound effects coming from the next peg on.

 

Game shooting is and always should be very traditional, tweeds, flat caps and s/s'. At the end of the day its respect for what you shoot, the same reason people dont shoot from the hip on driven days or scream "geddim geddim geddim! yeaaaahhhhhh!" like you see in american "hunting" videos.

 

And to be honest if youve got a semi on a driven day theres something definately wrong.