Dunkield Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 I am with TVP and my FAC says .223 for Muntjac and CWD + Roe in Scotland, 6.5x55 for all deer. As yours doesn't I would assume (you need to clarify this) you cannot legally shoot deer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthegearandnoidea Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 (edited) Thames Valley firearms department are closed at the moment so I spoke to BASC who said that it is legal for me to use the .223 for muntjac as the words any other lawful quarry does cover it. I'll check with the firearms department when they open again. Edited March 10, 2010 by allthegearandnoidea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 does it really? thats useful to know as looks like I'm covered for them as well in that case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthegearandnoidea Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 He also said that with that wording the onus is then on you to ensure that you do not shoot anything that is not legal for that calibre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardo Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 again there's confusion and grey areas - the new "Any lawful quarry" entry that's appearing should in theory enable you to shoot them, but mine has that and deer listed as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 yep it sounds like a back covering exercise on both sides and i'd almost wage money on TVP having a different view. Not sure they could do anything other than rap your knuckles in the very rare event you got caught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthegearandnoidea Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 I'll ask them when they open later, however I bet it will be like speaking to HMRC, ask the same question to three different people there and you normally get three different answers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Hi, Does anyone else find this whole situation nonsensical? We all have to obey the same legislation (yep, I know, Scotland) so why on earth can't they standardize the wording of the conditions throughout the various constabularies? One answer I suppose, being a cynic, is jobs, as instead of printing off a set piece the numerous staff sit and make it up as they go along: Al least, so it seems. Now, I don't really want to dump anyone on the dole so the alternative would, with less effort required per certificate, mean a faster turnround time which benefits everyone. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 the whole conditions section is a bit of a farce, either you're safe to use a certain calibre or not. After that what you can shoot should be down to you and based on what that caliber is legal for. Its really allowing petty beaureacracy to run wild in some forces. Mine seem one of the better ones some just seem to like making up more rules for the sake of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthegearandnoidea Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Just got off the phone to Thames Valley Police and asked the question. They said that any 'other lawful quarry', in theirs eyes, is anything that that calibre of rifle is legal to shoot. I therefore asked (just to make certain), if I could shoot muntjac with my .223 even though it says fox and other lawful quarry and does not mention muntjac specifically and he said yes I could. Therefore both BASC and Thames Valley Police agree that the wording on my certificate allows me to shoot muntjac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardo Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 nice to hear it from the horses mouth so to speak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthegearandnoidea Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Yes it is. Glad it clears it up, (for thames valley at least). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 does make you wonder why they even bothered putting fox against the .223 as using the same interpretation sounds like you're fine for fox on the rimmies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Is there a definitive list of legal quarry/rifle calibre ? Or guidance from some orgainisation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Is there a definitive list of legal quarry/rifle calibre ? Or guidance from some orgainisation? no except obviously for Deer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthegearandnoidea Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 does make you wonder why they even bothered putting fox against the .223 as using the same interpretation sounds like you're fine for fox on the rimmies I agree it does, but when I applied for the .223 I put for foxes as a reason so that may be why. The guy at basc said that he thought technically I could use the RF for fox. I didn't ask TVP though as I've no intention of doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Is there a definitive list of legal quarry/rifle calibre ? Or guidance from some orgainisation? There is guidance, but that is just it, but as we have seen here it is open to interpretation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 The way this works is actually very simple. The police put down the good reason for your rifle as the main thing, and 'any other legal quarry' means just that - it isn't defined in any way and thus from a legal standpoint it's simply taken at its face value. the good reason bit is also simple - if you stop shooting fox, you lose your good reason for the rifle and thus need to get rid, for example. It means that they don't have to let you keep your fox rifle just to shoot the odd rabbit. It works well, SO LONG AS they aren't trying to stop you using a certain rifle on a certain species, as unless there is non-firearms law (there is for Deer) it's legal for you to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 I think Mr Logic hit the nail on the head there. You have to have a reason to own the gun and that is listed, but then you can shoot any other legal quarry too. It sounds to me like Sharpshooters conditions (if he does have a FAC) are a bit tight? Perhaps down to inexperience? I'm not having a dig but I can shoot Rabbits with a .300 Win Mag if I want to. There's no point but my conditions allow it. As for the .222 for Munties and CWD, 50grn @ 1000+ ft-lbs and you're fine. A 40grn bullet will do it just the same but we have to stay inside the law so it's a no go. I guess it was a rule to stop light varminter type bullets being used for heart/lung shots, which could possibly just cause a nasty surface wound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colster Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 ...and also just for the sake of clarity, Deer cannot be shot at night, only between one hour before sunrise and up to one hour after sunset. I'm sure the OP is aware of this but just stating for safety's sake as at least one person (and probably only one) thought it was ok to lamp Deer! What's next? Wild Boar with a FAC Air rifle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferretmanabu Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 the whole conditions section is a bit of a farce, either you're safe to use a certain calibre or not. After that what you can shoot should be down to you and based on what that caliber is legal for. Its really allowing petty beaureacracy to run wild in some forces. Mine seem one of the better ones some just seem to like making up more rules for the sake of it. Couldn't agree with you more. What is the point of specifying the quarry a person can shoot? The Police's job should be to ensure that the person is suitable to have that calibre rifle. The rest should be up to the shooter. I even wonder about the land approval and it's necessity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colster Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 I even wonder about the land approval and it's necessity. Quite agree, the responsibility still lies with the shooter to take safe, considered shots. I have one particular shoot that is passed for .243 but I know full well there are large bits of it where a .243 would be a definite no no. To be honest, if I had a .243 on a open cert I probably wouldn't use it there at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 The way this works is actually very simple I will scan the conditions from my TVP issued FAC later, just to show life isn't that simple Same police HQ, different FEO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 Quite agree, the responsibility still lies with the shooter to take safe, considered shots. I have one particular shoot that is passed for .243 but I know full well there are large bits of it where a .243 would be a definite no no. To be honest, if I had a .243 on a open cert I probably wouldn't use it there at all. Surely if a shooter only takes safe and considerate shots then ANY caliber is safe to use on ANY land? My .260Rem is just as safe as my .22LR on any of my permissions as I only take safe shots. Don't be mislead by lesser calibers being safer than larger calibers...they ALL kill if you point them in the right (or wrong) direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lez325 Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 Surely if a shooter only takes safe and considerate shots then ANY caliber is safe to use on ANY land? My .260Rem is just as safe as my .22LR on any of my permissions as I only take safe shots. Don't be mislead by lesser calibers being safer than larger calibers...they ALL kill if you point them in the right (or wrong) direction. well said- its the calibre of the man and not the calibre of the rifle thats important Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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