Is anybody bothered

[David BASC]

The LAG will be looking at a range of research data I am sure, after the group has agreed exactly what needs to be looked at and researched.

 

Please remember that there has been an even more extensive study by the European Food Standards Agency on lead in food, (published at the end of April) and other foods such as cereals and some leafy green are the most significant source of lead in food!

 

David

[pigglet]

right first of i have not read the whole thread so this may have already been mentioned

first of if lead is banned i will buy a shot maker and reloading gear and reload mine as i do not like steel shot because first i do not find it dispatches birds properly and second i think it is very dangerous .

what concerns me the most is shooting ground game /pests steel has a bad tendency to ricoshay how long is it going to be before some one gets wounded

how are air rifles and live rifles going to be able to take steel bullets or other types of metal and how will it perform

steel can be used through all shotguns as long as a plaz wad is used

 

 

This sentence is what worries/confuses me about a potential lead ban.

most of my guns are old, the ones I enjoy shooting live quarry with are in fact over 100 years old and chambered for 2.5" carts.

 

I think shooting plastic wads anywhere other than a clay ground (and even some of those now stipulate fibre) is environmentally irresponsible. So for me, the statement made in the sentence above is only valid on a clay ground that allows the use of plastic wads.

 

I doubt my old english game gun will cope with shooting a steel cart with a fibre wad which will give the same pattern density and energy as 30g of no5 would? I would love to be told it will but at the moment I'm highly sceptical and would rather not risk my safety or the integrity of a gun worth over £2K.

Edited May 4, 2010 by pigglet

[MC]

Firstly The sentence is incorrect.

 

Steel has to be encased so it doesn't touch the barrel walls, it does NOT have to be a plastic wad. Gamebore do a 3" cartridge with a fibre shot cup so it is possible.

 

Shooting a steel load through ANY gun will give a better pattern density, and if you go up a size or two then yes you will have the same striking energy as well.

 

As I have said countless times yet people seem to ignore it, STEEL is NOT the ONLY non toxic shot available to us. There is no reason why you cannot use Bismuth in your 140 year old gun, assuming it is nitro proofed.

 

I use steel in guns worth considerably more than 2K, I do not have any issues with it at all.

[BlaserF3]

Here is a price list for non toxic shot http://www.justcartridges.com/pdf/nontoxic.pdf

 

MC, why do you love steel shot?

[MC]

Here is a price list for non toxic shot http://www.justcartridges.com/pdf/nontoxic.pdf

 

MC, why do you love steel shot?

 

 

I do not love steel shot, I would by preference use lead, everybody would however I am not allowed to for shooting wildfowl and that is my main love. I have learnt to not bury my head in the sand and get on with shooting, now that has meant buying a new gun and finding the best loads for it.

 

The point I am making in all my posts is a lead ban would not be the doom and gloom that you would have us all believe. You harp on about clay shooting being finished as we know it if lead was banned and I tell you that is outright poppycock. At the Essex Masters this year I shot 75% of the course with 9's through open chokes. I could have easily used steel on I guess 20 out of the 24 stands. Clays do not have to be dots on the horizon to be testing, pay a visit to High lodge and you will see what I mean.

 

The price of NTS at the moment is artificially high due to the ammount sold. If ALL cartridges had to be NTS do you think the cartridge manufacturers would not push for lower prices? Of course they would as noone is going to pay £15 - 30 per box to break clays. As the shot would be made in huge quantities the price would naturally fall.

[al4x]

maybe or they would work on the basis people had no choice if they had old guns so keep the prices high. There must be some justification for the high prices and it can't just be volume production after all they have a market where they could sell a lot more at the moment but don't so there must be a reason it costs that much to produce.

[MC]

maybe or they would work on the basis people had no choice if they had old guns so keep the prices high. There must be some justification for the high prices and it can't just be volume production after all they have a market where they could sell a lot more at the moment but don't so there must be a reason it costs that much to produce.

 

 

Yes of course you are right,

 

All these companies would just close their doors and pack up loading cartridges.

[BlaserF3]

Out of five grounds that I shoot at steel shot is banned at four of them, the only one that allows it is Blackpool, three are fibre wad only as they are surrounded by agricultural land and at Kelbrook you can shoot plaswads, but not steel.

 

I take it that you do not shoot trap at all. That would have to change and Olympic Trap would become extinct.

 

I still say that clay shooting will never be the same if we are forced to use ballistically inferior steel as the maximum shot size will be 7's as they are abroad.

[al4x]

Yes of course you are right,

 

All these companies would just close their doors and pack up loading cartridges.

 

 

not at all but realistically there is a pretty big market out there with fowling for Bismuth etc and the prices haven't come down, I like your optimism that they will but it isn't founded on any evidence, so for the purposes of the debate really we are left with steel or people with old guns having to pay the premium.

[MC]

Out of five grounds that I shoot at steel shot is banned at four of them, the only one that allows it is Blackpool, three are fibre wad only as they are surrounded by agricultural land and at Kelbrook you can shoot plaswads, but not steel.

 

I take it that you do not shoot trap at all. That would have to change and Olympic Trap would become extinct.

 

I still say that clay shooting will never be the same if we are forced to use ballistically inferior steel as the maximum shot size will be 7's as they are abroad.

 

 

So do the countries taht use steel shot not compete in OT?

 

Also can you not read? I have already said that steel shot IS available in fibre shot cups.

 

Olympic trap would not become extinct, anymore so that everyones pair of Holland and Hollands that grandpa left them in his will. Cartridge companies will develop loads to cater for different applications just as they do now.

[BlaserF3]

Yes I can read and according to the chart on non toxic shot, Gamebore's steel shot with a fibre wad is number 4 shot and 32 gms and is priced at £294 per 1000.

 

How many shooters could afford to go clay shooting at those prices even if they loaded them with 7's?

 

Steel will not travel as far as lead in comparative shot sizes, you know that as well as me, so how are the cartridge companies overcome that?

[MC]

Yes I can read and according to the chart on non toxic shot, Gamebore's steel shot with a fibre wad is number 4 shot and 32 gms and is priced at £294 per 1000.

 

How many shooters could afford to go clay shooting at those prices even if they loaded them with 7's?

 

Steel will not travel as far as lead in comparative shot sizes, you know that as well as me, so how are the cartridge companies overcome that?

 

It will be loaded at a higher velocity than lead, just as it is now. Most of my wildfowling loads are 1550 fps or higher

 

Most steel clay loads are 24 gr so there is 25% of your cost gone straightaway. A no.7 shot at 1550 to 1700 fps will be plenty enough for your Olympic trap or midi on the horizon.

 

If you read some of my other posts I went pigeon shooting on saturday with 32gr of 4's in a standard 2 3/4" case which you could use in any gun with a chamber the correct length and choked less than a 1/2. I did not have any issues with dropping birds and the furthest one was 46 paces out.

[David BASC]

As you know the Gun Trade Association are part of the LAG and I am sure their remit will be (among other things) to make sure that the cartridge manufacturers are on the case, come what may, and of course thus protecting the retail trade, shooting gorunds etc

 

But let’s not count our chickens until they are hatched – nothing has happened yet, apart from one meeting!

 

If we are not careful we will talk ourselves into a hissy fit!

 

David

[MC]

As you know the Gun Trade Association are part of the LAG and I am sure their remit will be (among other things) to make sure that the cartridge manufacturers are on the case, come what may, and of course thus protecting the retail trade, shooting gorunds etc

 

But let’s not count our chickens until they are hatched – nothing has happened yet, apart from one meeting!

 

If we are not careful we will talk ourselves into a hissy fit!

 

David

 

 

Amen to that,

[BlaserF3]

It will be loaded at a higher velocity than lead, just as it is now. Most of my wildfowling loads are 1550 fps or higher

 

Most steel clay loads are 24 gr so there is 25% of your cost gone straightaway. A no.7 shot at 1550 to 1700 fps will be plenty enough for your Olympic trap or midi on the horizon.

 

 

It will be semi auto's for everyone then

[MC]

It will be semi auto's for everyone then

 

 

Why is that then?

[BlaserF3]

Due to the heavy recoil of trying the impossible task of steel matching the energy of lead over 40 yards.

 

Steel 7's fired at 1800 fps has only 0.67 of energy at 40 yards compared to lead at 1300 fps which is 1.08, and it would be the equivalent of firing both barrels at once.

[MC]

Rubbish,

 

Have you ever heard of Newtons Third law of motion?

 

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"

 

How can 24gr at 1600FPS recoil much harder than 28gr at 1400?

 

Also there is lots of ways reducing recoil, I have a ISIS type reducer on my O/U and to be honest I am suprised that more clay shooters don't have one fitted and prevent any recoil problems in the future rather than worry about them when they happen.

[Christopher Graffius]

I don't believe I've seen any research that identifies lead shot ingested at clay grounds as a risk to any animal or human. I wouldn't have thought this would be on anyone's priority list.

 

That's not to say that clay shooting doesn't dump a fair amount of lead on clay grounds. The last time I went clay busting a few weeks ago I was told that my local clay ground has a chap who has paid for the privilege to collect the lead and recycle.

 

I was surprised to see sheep grazing where the shot fell - seemed thoroughly accustomed to the noise and fall of shot. I admit to wondering what their lead levels were like.

 

I would personally doubt that the current debate has much relevance - at present - to clay shooting.

 

Christopher

[al4x]

maybe maybe not, but one thing is for sure they are more likely to be stopped from dumping lead on arable or grazing land than most. I have actually heard of lead poisoning in cattle many years ago, only happened when a clay shoot was held over silage that had been cut but not picked up so the lead sat on the rows of grass and got picked up that way.

[wymberley]

Hi,

The good news is amongst all this doom and gloom is that a tungsten mine in Cornwall is possibly going to be re-opened. Come on BASC, have a whip round among members and let's buy it!

Cheers

[foggy11]

I haven't read the whole thread so please dont shoot me down in flames if this has been mentioned already......

 

 

A good friend of mine, said to me at the week end, " have you ever tried freezing your pigeons and then eating them, after they have been shot with steel"

 

Of course my reply was NO... However he said he had frozen a duck, shot with steel, and the steel rusted and made the bird inedible...

 

Any one else had this happen...??

 

Cheers..

 

 

Nik..

[anser2]

No.

 

I have recently eaten geese out of the freezer shot 3 years ago with steel and not a sign of rust on the single pellet I found

( most of the pelletts had gone right through the birds).

 

I would have thought iron \ steel would not rust unless it was in contact with liquid water , but I am no expert on this.

Edited May 4, 2010 by anser2

[Yellow Bear]

No.

 

I have recently eaten geese out of the freezer shot 3 years ago with steel and not a sign of rust on the single pellet I found

( most of the pelletts had gone right through the birds).

 

I would have thought iron \ steel would not rust unless it was in contact with liquid water , but I am no expert on this.

Steel requires both moisture and air to rust - I would sugest the duck was not frozen and stored correctly at a low temperature.

 

D

[dann boy]

why is it only basc that are talking about lead ban and are all basc committee members mps in there spare time cos they all lie to us as well