Is anybody bothered

[mudpatten]

Blaser, mate, your reasoning, with which I disagree as you can probably tell, is becoming completely irrational.

 

Nobody wants a ban on lead, there is`nt one in the offing, but some of us feel it is quite likely at some time in the future and have already taken steps to ensure we can keep shooting should it come about.

 

I have used steel extensively over the last fifteen years and I can assure you that it works. My argument is one developed from a perspective of practical experience whilst your seems to be based on little more than paranoia.

[BlaserF3]

Call me irrational if you want but why ban anything when there is no need, I lost pistols through one ban and eventually all guns in public ownership will be banned too.

 

This Government would like to ban guns, the police arrest revelers dressed up as cowboy's carrying toy guns pigeon shooters are harassed by the police when out shooting, even by helicopter and armed police.

 

The police want you to tell them when you go out with your gun.

 

How much more are you willing to bend over and be shafted. These bans should be fought even though you might not agree with it, what's the next one going to be?

 

http://www.shootingtimes.co.uk/news/448740...tion_Group.html I suggest you read it again mudpatten.

[mudpatten]

I think we`ve touched on this before in another thread. The Shooting Times is NOT an unbiased source of factual information and if you are so politically naive as to believe the tripe they publish it`s no wonder you`re a worried man.

[BlaserF3]

So are you telling me that there is no advisory group being formed.

[wymberley]

By posting that link it actually shows that a 30g load of 4's in steel is better than the same load of lead 6's, More striking energy and better pattern. What more do you need?

 

Recoil can easily be dealt with either using semi auto or recoil reducer fitted to a traditional gun.

Actually with regard to the pellet energy bit, that's not true. Yes, the striking (impact) energy of the steel is higher but that is only part of the story. The more effective pellet will have a higher energy density. This is a function of lethal energy (the energy in the pellet remaining after the fur/feather and skin have been penetrated and the pellet's diameter. A No 4 shot steel pellet with a 400 m/s MV at 40 yards will have an energy density of 0.25 j/mm2, a lead No 6 with a similar velocity will have 0.34. As an aside, a bismuth No 5 comes in at 0.31. To match the lead figure, a steel shot size No 1 is required.

Cheers

[David BASC]

From my own experience and what others have told me, if you use the correct steel load and keep within range then steel works fine for live quarry and is a viable alternative in terms of cost and effect.

 

I am aware that there are concerns at clay grounds about steel shot bouncing off hard surfaces, but I think the CPSA should become involved in the lead issue in the following way: not withstanding that there is NOT a lead ban in the offing, I think the clay boys should start to review what could be done IF a ban came in to ensure that all the current clay disciplines can carry on.

 

Secondly, as we actively encourage all live quarry shooters to practice on clays as often as possible, it would be best if they used the same gun / cartridge combination as they do when shooting live quarry... and if people want or need to use steel for live quarry shooting they will want and need to shoot clays with steel too.

 

And as a last point, we see steel now is less that a quid a box more expensive than lead, if metal prices move again, steel may well become cheaper and thus more people may well start to use it anyway. But not this year i dont think as the new 'deal' on mined iron ore , that ends 40 years of 'benchmark pricing' that has in effect kept a bit of a cap on steel price to an extent has ended, and we could well see the price of steel increase quite a bit this year, maybe as much as 30%. That will have a knock on effect on the cost of anything made of steel.

 

Lets face it, lead shot can bounce off water, stone, metal, etc as well! For example, I have seen a full bore rifle round shot at a target aprox 100m away bounce back and take the shooters hat off - funny and scary at the same time!

 

I have dealt with loads of claims on the BASC insurance where a lead pellet or two have bounced off stone, paths, barns, trees, ponds and so on and hit a third party - heck I have even been there when one of them happened (in the old days) when a chap shot a wounded duck on a pond and a beater on the other side was peppered as the pellets bounced off the water

 

Air rifle shooting is one of my other shooting activities, and I have lost count of the number of times a pellet has come wizzing back at me.

 

David

[anser2]

No Mudpattern is saying you cant believe all the Shooting times says in its editorial. The bones of the story are correct , but as usual the ST has put their own slant on it. I am sorry you lost your pistol shooting , but this lead vs steel is the wrong battle to stick it out with as it may risk the future of field shooting. You have seen the evidence that the potential for a serious problem with lead exists though you refuse to believe it and every thread you have provided to the contrary has been refuted on closer examination . I guess if birds were dropping dead at you feet you would still want to carry on using lead.

 

This argument has started to round and round in circles so i am going to back outof it now unless a new angle apears.

Edited April 5, 2010 by anser2

[BlaserF3]

Anser,

 

I do not shoot birds just clays, you lot can shoot what you want, I just do not like recoil at all.

 

But I am glad that I am not a member of BASC just by the way they try to belittle someone who disagrees with what they say.

 

The worst one is, no I had best not say.

[Zapp]

If this descends into personal mudslinging it will be locked.

 

ZB

[MC]

Anser,

 

I do not shoot birds just clays, you lot can shoot what you want, I just do not like recoil at all.

 

But I am glad that I am not a member of BASC just by the way they try to belittle someone who disagrees with what they say.

 

The worst one is, no I had best not say.

 

 

Do you have an ISIS recoil reducer(or similar) fitted to your gun?

 

I am very susceptible to recoil but with a proper recoil reducer on my gun I do not notice it at all. Recoil is directly proportional to the velocity of the shot and the weight of the shot charge.

 

YOUR chart shows that there is not a huge difference so that argument is blown out of the water. Shooter are happy to use cartridges like Kent velocity etc which have far higher recoil than a 32gr steel load.

 

You keep saying about what you have read and various articles yet you have not got any practible experience.

 

You are not a member of BASC yet you are happy to attack them, you only shoot clays so you are probably a CPSA member and they are not even joining the fight. I hope you will be giving the CPSA as much stick about not doing anything should a lead abn happen.

 

I would genuinely hate to see a lead ban, but I am a realist and know that it won't make as much difference to shooting as you would believe.

[BlaserF3]

zapp,

 

have a look at page 3 that was mudslinging but nowt was said then

[BlaserF3]

Do you have an ISIS recoil reducer(or similar) fitted to your gun?

 

I am very susceptible to recoil but with a proper recoil reducer on my gun I do not notice it at all. Recoil is directly proportional to the velocity of the shot and the weight of the shot charge.

 

YOUR chart shows that there is not a huge difference so that argument is blown out of the water. Shooter are happy to use cartridges like Kent velocity etc which have far higher recoil than a 32gr steel load.

 

You keep saying about what you have read and various articles yet you have not got any practible experience.

 

You are not a member of BASC yet you are happy to attack them, you only shoot clays so you are probably a CPSA member and they are not even joining the fight. I hope you will be giving the CPSA as much stick about not doing anything should a lead abn happen.

 

I would genuinely hate to see a lead ban, but I am a realist and know that it won't make as much difference to shooting as you would believe.

 

I shoot an Urika2 which has the Beretta cylinder recoil reducer in the butt. I shoot Express 24gms as I find 28 gms too much over 100 shots.

 

I once bought some of those Kent velocity shot a box and took the other 1775 back, same with Fiocchi top one too much recoil for me, Eley Olympic used to be OK, but then they changed something and now they kick.

 

I sold my Blaser due to recoil problems then they brought out 21gm which would have been OK.

 

I am not in the CPSA now as there is not enough registered grounds to shoot at and I do not like cheats.

 

I did not really attack BASC and anyway they are big enough to look after themselves.

 

Steel does have more recoil and a few grounds up here have banned it, so what do you expect me to do roll over and give in?

[MC]

You can argue as much as you like, but you cannot argue with physics.

 

I believe it is Newtons third law of motion that states for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. 1oz of shot irrespective of what it is made from travelling at the same velocity will give the same recoil.

 

That is a FACT at cannot be argued with.

 

Steel cartridges tend not to have the spring section in the wad but the difference is neglible.

 

I shoot 1 9/16 through my extrema and do not notice the recoil.

 

Using a 24gr steel load through your semi auto would be no different to using the cartridges that you use now.

[Salopian]

Please do not lose sight of the fact that if we were forced to use soft iron (steel) shot, for an effective comparable performance to a 28gram lead loaded cartridge, we would effectively make the traditional English game gun SxS obsolete, effectively consigning the British guntrade literally to history, can you imagine how many traditional game guns in the public domain that are unusable with steel cartridges?

[anser2]

You have a very good point there Saloipan and it will be sad day if this happens. I suspect that most British gun makers will adapt , but that still leaves thousands of s\s game guns that cant handle steel shells. I have two 3 inch magnum wildfowling guns in my cabinet that cant be used to shoot 3 inch steel shells now. I do sometimes use tungsten or hevi- shot in them or standard 32 gr loads of steel in them , but the cost of most non – toxic shells is so steep than I mainly use my two 3.5 inch semi autos for wildfowling with high performance shells. It’s the guy who rough shoots with English guns who will be hardest hit. Those who shoot on keepered shoots on the whole will be less effected. If they can afford £25-£35 pounds a bird , plus a keepers tip ( that’s maybe £400 + for a days driven shooting ) , £ 40-£50 pounds for a couple of boxes of bismuth should not prove too expensive. After all its only the cost of shooting a couple of pheasants.

[Salopian]

anser2,

Thank you for your sensible understanding, in answer to the thread title 'Is anybody bothered' the answer is yes I am.

I have 32 guns that I have collected over many years and each one has a reason for my owning them, to have to go to high performance steel loads would render them obsolete and devalued instantly. Why ? If there is no justifiable reason to ban the use of lead shot.

If lead is such a bad thing why are the environmentalists spending millions promoting and refining electrically powered cars? They use lead derived power sources don't they?

If the Government of this country are so concerned about environmental pollution why do they allow Ministries to flout environmental laws, using tri-chlorethylene, depositing tritium into the water course, flouting recycling legislation, etc., etc.,? Need I go on? I am sure there are many people who frequent this site that can mention similar incidents. To do it does not make it right but it really is a case of getting our priorities in order.

Rather than worry about lead pollution we should all make a concerted effort to improve our social standards and social health legislation.

[BlaserF3]

I feel the thread was hijacked by the steel shot brigade, when it was all about banning lead for no reasonable reason.

 

But they do not seem to care about an individual's opinion, they just want to harass and browbeat you.

[David BASC]

I do not think the thread has been hijacked by anybody, it has simply evolved as many long threads do; nor do I think anyone is ‘browbeating’ or ‘belittling’ anyone, many of us will have different opinions and are will express them it is as simple as that.

 

The important thing is that shooting is being represented at the highest possible level with this consultation, by BASC and the GTA. The CA are there also (at BASC’s request as I remember) as many of their members shoot.

 

Also, importantly shooters are being kept up to speed with what is going on, I promise to do all I can to make sure the BASC web site is updated with the facts and findings as soon as they happen, I also promise that my colleagues at BASC will always be as open, factual and honest as possible as this evolves over the coming months.

 

David

[BlaserF3]

Just be careful when you fire an air rifle at an object David, you could end up hurting yourself :look:

[wymberley]

Hi,

I'm confused, can anyone put me straight?

I'd just picked up on another thread (you'll know the one) and was going to ask this but Zapp closed it. On the OP a list of additives was given which are designed to give steel certain properties. Although we've copied the American terminology, we know that "steel" shot is actually iron. The OP author, it seems to me usually talks sense, hence my confusion. Are those additives actually present in "steel" shot?

Cheers

 

Edit, PS, you may not, the one on clay shooting about steel/lead/pollution

Edited April 6, 2010 by wymberley

[BlaserF3]

This http://www.nrahuntersrights.org/LeadIssues.aspx is interesting.

 

But I've had enough.

Edited April 6, 2010 by BlaserF3

[David BASC]

Hi all,

 

As some may have seen, S Times are now trawling this (and other?) forums to see what I am up to and then quoting (some) of what I say - but by no means all, in S Times!

 

Well the forum members should be proud that S Times see PW as such a valuable source of information, but take care what you post on this forum as the next time you read what you write on here (or just the edited highlights maybe) will be in next weeks ST.

 

Best wishes to all at PW and S Times

 

David

 

P.S. Remember to keep up to speed on the facts about the lead issue or any other issue that BASC are involved with - go to the BASC web site, or ask me, Simon or Christopher.

[al4x]

I'll look forward to reading my copy when it drops on my doormat

[MC]

Hi all,

 

As some may have seen, S Times are now trawling this (and other?) forums to see what I am up to and then quoting (some) of what I say - but by no means all, in S Times!

 

Well the forum members should be proud that S Times see PW as such a valuable source of information, but take care what you post on this forum as the next time you read what you write on here (or just the edited highlights maybe) will be in next weeks ST.

 

Best wishes to all at PW and S Times

 

David

 

P.S. Remember to keep up to speed on the facts about the lead issue or any other issue that BASC are involved with - go to the BASC web site, or ask me, Simon or Christopher.

 

Maybe Mr Balmain would like to join the forum and give us his opinion. After all we already have at least one shooting mag editor on board.

[JRS]

David - it seems that BASC decides what its members are getting, then tries to convince them that is what they wanted all along. What is the official BASC policy - do you try to achieve what your members WANT, or what BASC thinks they should have?