Adding 2 x CF calibres to FAC - advice requested

[Raja Clavata]

Have land approval on 870 acres for .22-250 and .243, wanting fox included on .243 so a bit concrned the question will arise as to why a .22-250 as well; my justification is for longer range fox control.

 

The current draft of my letter to accompany the variation is along the lines of:

 

Please find enclosed application for addition of .22-250 and .243 calibres to my FAC along with signed land approval form and cheque covering the variation fee.

 

It is my understanding, based on previous discussions with PC Xxxxx, that only Muntjac and Chinese water deer can be added as suitable deer species without a DSC1. I will be completing the DSC1 course no later than October this year and therefore hope it will be acceptable to include additional deer species conditions onto the .243 portion of my certificate sometime thereafter.

 

To date I have completed two successful accompanied Muntjac stalks using an un-moderated .243 estate rifle.

 

Subject to approval of this application I am likely to purchase a .243 rifle first as this is the calibre I wish to use on the DSC1 course. As such it would be my preference if fox, Muntjac & Chinese Water Deer are included on the condition for .243 calibre. The primary purpose of the .22-250 calibre will be in long range fox control but if possible I would appreciate a condition for this calibre which also includes Muntjac Deer.

 

I would also like to request a home visit please to inspect and approve a second cabinet installation.

 

If you would like to discuss any aspects of this application in further detail then please feel free to call me in the first instance on 07770-xxxxxx.

 

I am dealing with a new FEO as my old one retired and I'm in Metropolitan area - any suggestions or modifications, or is it OK as is?

 

Thanks very much in advance

Raja

[codling99]

looks and sounds ok to me,the worst they can do is say why or no,then you can challenge their decision :(

[gixer1]

It is my understanding, based on previous discussions with PC Xxxxx, that only Muntjac and Chinese water deer can be added as suitable deer species without a DSC1.

 

 

Is this the legal stand point there or a suggestion? that sounds a bit unreasonable!

 

Otherwise the letter looks fine...

[Raja Clavata]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

The DSC1 is not a legal thing but an emerging trend it would seem (presumably someone is recommending it as "best practice").

 

I also heard that CWD are likely to get taken off conditions for rounds like .223, assume .243 would become minimum.

[al4x]

why do you want the .22-250 as well the .243 will out perform it as a long range fox gun. Couple that with only one rifle and one scope and you're better off just having one set of gear.

 

Personally I'd not worry with the letter and just put in for the variation and conditions as it will allbe discussed when the FEO comes round. That way you don't talk yourself into having to do the DSC etc, From memory you have plenty of rimfire experience and now want to move up to centrefire. You have land you've gained experience so really you shouldn't have a problem

[Raja Clavata]

Struggling with that a bit myself to be honest although I thought the .22-250 would be better as an out and out "no messing about just point and shoot" tool for doing a proper job on the foxes. I'll put a 8 x 56 S&B on the .243 and for the .22-250 I was thinking of something higher mag and variable too (so probably at least double the cost of the 8 x 56).

 

I've been through the buying as many shotties as there are days in the week mullarkey and don't want to do the same thing with the rifles, so your point is particularly valid. But there are places I could go onto shoot with a .223 / .22-250 that aren't cleared for .243.

 

I did think about just applying for the .243, perhaps that's all I should do for now, that way I don't get into the specifics of what species on what calibre first time around.

 

I previously spoke to the new FEO about a .223 and he told me to include an accompanying letter.

 

Thanks!

Raja

[al4x]

Personally there isn't enough difference between them to make it worthwhile. Obviously clearance is an issue but that should be possible to overcome and if it is a problem suggest you'll need another CF and that may well persuade them :(

I've an 8x56 on my .223 and really I'd be happy shooting to 300 yards with it at the moment in daylight and obviously foxing at night you won't be stretching that far. If you look at the ballistics on the .243 its pretty flat shooting much like the .22-250 so if you could get clearance for it then its probably better to have one rifle and use it more so when you go for deer you've already had plenty of practice on foxes and long range vermin.

 

Letter wise if he wants it I guess do it but there is no where on a variation form it says you need one.

Edited April 20, 2010 by al4x

[stirky]

Simple, you want your 22.250 for fox/vermin/cwd and muntjac

 

And you want a .243 for roe deer and larger species of deer.

[wild-fire]

22-250 for small deer species, fox control and zeroing and .243 for medium deer species, fox control and zeroing try that it worked for me. you could mention that you are studying for DMQ1 and have been actively stalking deer with a .243 cf on an estate rifle (if you have had this experience).

[Mr_Logic]

I think the letter is being too nice - ultimately if you have the land and the requirement you should be granted - that's the law for heaven's sake!

 

Re CWD - the law says a 22CF is OK, so long as it's powerful enough and has the right bullet, so not likely to get removed!

[Redgum]

I think the letter is being too nice - ultimately if you have the land and the requirement you should be granted - that's the law for heaven's sake!

 

Re CWD - the law says a 22CF is OK, so long as it's powerful enough and has the right bullet, so not likely to get removed!

 

Ha ha, you would think so but we all know that mostly aint the case. If its your first CF you'll prob get a mentoring clause. Its mentioned in the Home office guidelines that the use of 243 for fox can be considered if an area is particularly windy (extra bullet weight). Saying your studying for your DSC1 wont influence anyone unless you have proof you are booked on your course in which case you will probably have been sent supporting cd or correspondence. The munty stalks will be taken in to consideration though.

[Colster]

But there are places I could go onto shoot with a .223 / .22-250 that aren't cleared for .243.

 

There's your justification for applying for both rifles.

[al4x]

There's your justification for applying for both rifles.

 

 

its a lot cheaper to try and get them to clear the land for a .243, personally I wouldn't use a .223 etc anywhere I wouldn't use a .243. If the land has a backstop for a 22cf it will stop a .243 all it means is you don't have to lash out on 2 scopes, 2 rifles, 2 mods etc etc If you want to shoot deer it shouldn't be an issue and if you've had your FAC a while you may not need mentoring I know I had no problem having had my FAC 4 years getting a .223 with no conditions.

The main issue in this case is the new FEO and how green they are, a letter is one thing but I think more will come down to what you say when they come round. The facts are you've done some stalking accompanied and are looking to do more hence the requirement you also want to shoot foxes, one option is to put down both calibers after all you don't have to buy both and try and talk them into giving you all you need on the .243 pulling the you want a deer legal rifle but also want to shoot foxes etc with it and surely its better to have just the one gun hence you need either vermin on the conditions or the newer any legal quarry which would be the ideal

[Raja Clavata]

Thanks for all your help and suggestions guys

 

I have decided to just put in for a .243 and see how that goes.

 

Appreciate the help!

 

PS - The really frustrating thing is that this was all sorted with the previous FEO, had discussed in advance and he wasn't even going to visit me on the basis of the variation (although I was going to request he did so to approve the installation of a further cabinet). When I got my SGC he told me "I bet you'll be in touch shortly about a FAC" and when he issued me the FAC "Suspect I'll be speaking to you again soon enough about a CF" - talk about a contrast!

Edited April 22, 2010 by Raja Clavata

[Raja Clavata]

Got first call on this from my new FEO at 19:30 this evening.

 

Either I've confused him in what I've asked for or he is very inexperienced in these matters (OK perhaps both). He is going to refer my application to a more experienced colleague who also shoots (this guy doesn't) and has promised to get back to me again by the end of the week with a "decision".

 

He is saying they don't normally approve .243 for deer without DSC1 (which I'm doing in October), I said that's fine so what about fox and small deer (Muntjac and CWD); which is exactly what my variation / accompanying letter requested - he's not sure and needs to get back to me.

 

Time for me to call BASC me thinks, as suggested by MC and Bob300 who were with me at the time, as I have a feeling this ain't gonna go my way for some reason.

 

Just learnt that the same FEO visited my mate today for his first FAC application (.22LR & .17HMR) for whom I was a referee - no mentoring condition (the old FEO insisted on it) and said he can have an open cert in a years time.

 

So who knows, he may come back to me on Friday telling me all OK and I can have an open (as I've already been mentored and have had the rimmies for 15 months or so). Not holding my breath though

[Colster]

Hope it goes well for you mate, I'm in a similar situation.

 

I'm asking for HMR for long range rabbits, .223 for Fox and small deer and .243 for fox and deer.

 

The only one I may struggle with is the .223 as it sits kind of between the other two but I'm asking for it on the basis of land possibly not being cleared for .243 and over and to be honest it would probably be the one I bought last if at all.

 

Just waiting for the visit from the FEO now.

[Raja Clavata]

Many thanks to David BASC for confirming my application is sound and alleviating my concerns on this

 

Just waiting to hear back from the FEO again...

[Dougy]

Many thanks to David BASC for confirming my application is sound and alleviating my concerns on this

 

Just waiting to hear back from the FEO again...

 

Well worth the annual subscription IMO

 

You could have gone for 243 for fox and deer also a 30 calibre if you wanted for the larger deer plus anything else;- Wild Boar

 

Less meat damage too

 

all the best with your interview

[Raja Clavata]

Well I've only been a member for two years - started out on clays and nearly joined the CPSA but they messed an order up for the clay manual which put me off a bit - boy am I glad I plumped for BASC (for many reasons)

[Dekers]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

The DSC1 is not a legal thing but an emerging trend it would seem (presumably someone is recommending it as "best practice").

 

I also heard that CWD are likely to get taken off conditions for rounds like .223 , assume .243 would become minimum.

 

So where did you here this suggestion?

 

They were only put on the Amendment in 2007 and it will take another Act/Amendment to take them off it.

 

I can't help thinking the Government has other things on their mind at the moment.

[njc110381]

If they were going to change that rule I'd have said it would be much more sensible to add Roe to the .22 list!

 

I wouldn't go for both calibres either by the way. I think they are far too similar.

[Raja Clavata]

FEO just called again; recommending approval of .243 for Fox and Vermin only until such time that I complete DSC1 (which should be 8th October this year) - no deer of any kind apparently.

 

Happy with that (sort of) but then he said I'll have an accompanying / mentoring condition post DSC1 for deer until such time that I get someone experienced to sign me off.

 

I did query the point of doing the DSC1 but suggested perhaps we can discuss further in due course.

 

He will be visiting once certificate is ready to approve second cabinet installation so hoping to discuss then.

[al4x]

sounds like a load of bull to need DSC and mentoring rather than one or the other.

[Imperfection]

he said I'll have an accompanying / mentoring condition post DSC1 for deer until such time that I get someone experienced to sign me off.

 

eh? Whats the point of doing the DSC course then? It would be like someone passing their driving test and their instructor to carry on sitting beside them.

[Raja Clavata]

Yep, especially as I had a mentoring condition on the rimfires initially. My previous FEO expressly stated I would not have a further mentoring condition imposed.

 

I can't help but think I'm getting a hard time because this guy does not really know what he's doing ...