17 HMR for fox

[njc110381]

If you can get in close, are a good shot and hit the Fox in the right place then it will go down. Although people are saying that something like a .223 is better, it doesn't mean a Fox will never run when hit with a .223. They do sometimes. I've had (not far mind) runners with my 6.5x55!

 

Regarding the Deer there's a youtube video showing a Deer being shot with a .50BMG round, it runs! The only way to reliably stop an animal from running is to shoot it with something big enough to rip the muscles apart so the body can't function. Just because they're running doesn't mean they're alive. It's muscle memory and when the signals disappear they go into flight mode to try to get away.

 

With the HMR I've had Foxes run from the middle of a field through the hedge and away. It happens to the best of us when we hunt no matter how big the rifle or how good we are. Occasionally it just happens. The power is there, it's just the tiny little bullet that can cause a problem. Even hitting a rib or worse the shoulder can create a surface wound that doesn't go deep enough to do a good job. The only bullets available for the HMR are varmint bullets and for their size they just don't have the punch to do the job well. If you could get something like a Nosler Partition or Speer soft point that mushrooms and holds together it could possibly do the job better, but then it would be a seriously tiny hole.

 

You wouldn't load a .243 with 50 grain V-Max and go hunting Deer, it's the same thing really except there are no controlled expansion bullets available for the HMR.

[Mr_Logic]

Afraid that one is fact too, find me a headless rabbit from a HMR substantially over 125 yards. Remember that v-max tips need > 1600fps for reliable expansion.

[Evil Elvis]

Wheres the facts then?

 

I have shot many many rabbits at WAY over 125 yeards and I find the FURTHER away you shoot them the MORE chance you have of the round going ballistic!!

 

I shot one at 170+ last week that virtually had no head, witnessed.

 

How many rabbits have you ACTUALLY shot with the hmr? I have found that I get les fussy about head shots at ranges of 150+ and a lot of what i shoot at the longer ranges is only good for ferret food!

 

 

I have also shot foxes out to 240 with the hmr, all witnessed, single shot and very dead, I dont normally take them at this range buit this ****** was killing sheep and we couldnt get him in any closer, slight hold over Ie aimed at his neck, bullet smack bang in the engine room, FACT!! witnessed and measured by someone on here!

 

Why have i not printed this before? Fed up with people that rarely get out of thier armchairs sprouting tish!!!

 

This fellow was 225yards, aimed at top of ears...smack bang on the nose, are you seriously going to tell me that bullet didnt expand?

 

 

All this bull that people sprout about the hmrs effectiveness at 125 yards or dont go beyond 150 is utter rubbish....the only thing stopping you from shooting greater distances is YOU!

 

Im the wrong hands the hmr is can be inneffective on foxes and while i have shot many with the hmr...they were not in Essex and as Essex wont allow a hmr for foxes i now have a .222, which Im sure that once I get to grips with it and have had as much experince with it as I have the hmr then I will push the ditances with that, I have already shot a measured and witnessed 298 yard kill.

 

 

Remember that v-max tips need > 1600fps for reliable expansion.

 

Its pointless quoting ballistics at me, Im not an anorak, I just go out and DO!!!

Edited May 30, 2010 by Evil Elvis

[njc110381]

That's another thing the HMR isn't so great at. Batch consistency of ammunition and long range stability!

 

Sorry EE, I'm usually a fan of your posts and you come across as a decent bloke but 240 yards on a Fox with a HMR is really pushing the quarry respect thing! You're welcome to call me an armchair hunter if you wish but personally I feel you're asking a bit much from your rifle. I've had one myself and on paper even from prone with a butt bag the little bullets start to wander around at that range.

 

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this because I'm not going to argue. All I will say is in the year or just over that I had my HMR I put appoximately 4000 rounds through it and most were in the field. I'm quite happy that I've shot it enough to have mishaps and at those ranges it isn't going to be long before you get a few yourself.

[Mr_Logic]

I'm with njc here, 240 yards with HMR is really pushing things. And don't call me an anorak, my hatred of HMR is based solely on real world experience. I can shoot foxes at lon range too, but I use the right rifle, and I'd prefer to get them in closer.

 

Unfortunately you are talking rubbish about HMR expanding more at greater ranges, polymer tip rounds expand better when they hit something solid at great speed. You will some expansion with bone, but if you miss bone at long range, nothing solid present to expand the bullet.

 

I read this info from the bullet makers, iirc nosler in this case - minimum rated impact velocity.

 

I have seen HMR fail and I can shoot a bit, as those who know me will verify. I'll stick to Hornet, much better calibre with similar ballistics.

[njc110381]

It is right that the faster a bullet impacts the better it blows up. That works with all of them. Why do you think that some of the bullet manufacturers are fighting to develop more robust Deer bullets since the magnum cartridges have been on the scene? A bog standard Speer softpoint is great in a .308 but hit a Deer at under 100 yards with the same bullet from a .300 Win Mag and it will blow up like a Varmint Grenade.

[Dekers]

Wheres the facts then?

 

I have shot many many rabbits at WAY over 125 yeards and I find the FURTHER away you shoot them the MORE chance you have of the round going ballistic!!

 

I shot one at 170+ last week that virtually had no head, witnessed.

 

How many rabbits have you ACTUALLY shot with the hmr? I have found that I get les fussy about head shots at ranges of 150+ and a lot of what i shoot at the longer ranges is only good for ferret food!

 

 

I have also shot foxes out to 240 with the hmr, all witnessed, single shot and very dead, I dont normally take them at this range buit this ****** was killing sheep and we couldnt get him in any closer, slight hold over Ie aimed at his neck, bullet smack bang in the engine room, FACT!! witnessed and measured by someone on here!

 

Why have i not printed this before? Fed up with people that rarely get out of thier armchairs sprouting tish!!!

 

This fellow was 225yards, aimed at top of ears...smack bang on the nose, are you seriously going to tell me that bullet didnt expand?

 

 

All this bull that people sprout about the hmrs effectiveness at 125 yards or dont go beyond 150 is utter rubbish....the only thing stopping you from shooting greater distances is YOU!

 

Im the wrong hands the hmr is can be inneffective on foxes and while i have shot many with the hmr...they were not in Essex and as Essex wont allow a hmr for foxes i now have a .222, which Im sure that once I get to grips with it and have had as much experince with it as I have the hmr then I will push the ditances with that, I have already shot a measured and witnessed 298 yard kill.

 

 

 

 

Its pointless quoting ballistics at me, Im not an anorak, I just go out and DO!!!

 

I am not entering into any debate here.

 

But ANY bullet can expand, the fox round appears to have hit a very boney (HARD) area and because it didn't have the energy to penetrate had caused major surface damage.

 

We are all well aware that any bullet can have dramatically different effects on even the same quarry at the same distances. That wound on the Fox is NOT typical of a 17g Ballistic tip and shows massive surface disruption. The HMR would very rarely make a surface entry wound track like that, most commonly a very neat almost invisible small hole! I would also go as far as to say there is barely enough internal damage to stop it as well, the eyes appear firmy seated in their sockets, indicating little or no internal pressure. That shot worked and credit to you as that is what you intended, but on another day the fox may well have run off with half a face!!

 

These things happen from time to time and anyone with a bit of experience behind them has done this sort of thing, once or twice, circumstances and situations and ability vary enormously but you are talking exceptions and not the rule!

 

ATB!!

Edited May 30, 2010 by Dekers

[wymberley]

I have just opened July's Sporting Gun and noticed that George Wallace has done an article on this very topic. Haven't got a chance to read it yet but possible this evening.

Hi,

Read that and on finishing my immediate impression, rightly or wrongly, was that he'd taken two pages to say absolutely nothing.

Cheers

[Evil Elvis]

Sorry EE, I'm usually a fan of your posts and you come across as a decent bloke but 240 yards on a Fox with a HMR is really pushing the quarry respect thing! You're welcome to call me an armchair hunter if you wish but personally I feel you're asking a bit much from your rifle. I've had one myself and on paper even from prone with a butt bag the little bullets start to wander around at that range.

 

i did state that it was pushiing it, it was a fox that HAD to go, it had killed 3 ADULT sheep,( Im sure several self declared experts will say this isnt possible) it was a big male and id been chasing it for ages, and was the closest i had gotten to it and I grossly under estimated how far away it was in the lamp,it was just before i got my .222, it was a calculated shot that worked.

 

I have stated in the past that most of my foxes are taken in the 100-150 yard range with the hmr, but im cheesed off with being told it cant do this you cant do that blah blah blah,

 

I have only ever had to do coup de gras on ONE fox, and that was using the silly full metal jacket hmr ammo that really really doesnt expand!!!! Ive had runners....but invariable only 20-30 yards, ive seen them do the same with .222, .223 and .243!!! all much bigger harder hitting rounds.

 

I took a friend to the farm the other day...shot the 7mm plate that MC wouldnt believe was possible, the round went straight through it.....SO on saturday MC called us BOTH liars!!!! Charming eh?

 

 

Im fed up with so called self declared experts poo pooing things ive done in the field, most of the time now because of this I dont bother posting much any more.

 

 

i will do some experiments with the hmr at 300 yards etc once i have some time and post those, I have been challenged to hit a coke can at that range and im pretty confident that i can.

 

 

 

the eyes appear firmy seated in their sockets

 

there was only 1 eye left and a hole you could put a golf ball into.......................so waht then? another fluke shot....i seem to pull a lot of those off?

 

I agree generally with what you are saying, if you do an engine room shot its hard to even find an entry wound most times but head shots produce a lot more damage in my experience like this one:

 

Straight through the eye head mushed

 

Edited May 30, 2010 by Evil Elvis

[Mr_Logic]

Was that another 200+ yard fox with HMR? You really don't show your quarry enough respect if so.

[Evil Elvis]

Nope only done 2 past 200 ........................ instant death is regarded as disrespectful nowaday?

[MC]

i did state that it was pushiing it, it was a fox that HAD to go, it had killed 3 ADULT sheep,( Im sure several self declared experts will say this isnt possible) it was a big male and id been chasing it for ages, and was the closest i had gotten to it and I grossly under estimated how far away it was in the lamp,it was just before i got my .222, it was a calculated shot that worked.

 

I have stated in the past that most of my foxes are taken in the 100-150 yard range with the hmr, but im cheesed off with being told it cant do this you cant do that blah blah blah,

 

I have only ever had to do coup de gras on ONE fox, and that was using the silly full metal jacket hmr ammo that really really doesnt expand!!!! Ive had runners....but invariable only 20-30 yards, ive seen them do the same with .222, .223 and .243!!! all much bigger harder hitting rounds.

 

I took a friend to the farm the other day...shot the 7mm plate that MC wouldnt believe was possible, the round went straight through it.....SO on saturday MC called us BOTH liars!!!! Charming eh?

 

 

Im fed up with so called self declared experts poo pooing things ive done in the field, most of the time now because of this I dont bother posting much any more.

 

 

i will do some experiments with the hmr at 300 yards etc once i have some time and post those, I have been challenged to hit a coke can at that range and im pretty confident that i can.

 

 

 

 

 

there was only 1 eye left and a hole you could put a golf ball into.......................so waht then? another fluke shot....i seem to pull a lot of those off?

 

I agree generally with what you are saying, if you do an engine room shot its hard to even find an entry wound most times but head shots produce a lot more damage in my experience like this one:

 

Straight through the eye head mushed

 

 

I don't recall calling you a liar on saturday, although however I do notice that you plate has got thinner.

 

20mm, my Hmr will go through 10mm at close range.!!

 

 

I will have a tenner bet that you cannot hit the base of a coke can at 300 yards with two consecutive shots. I have a range that you can do it on whenever you want to try.

[derek.snr]

done a few with the 17 because i had nothing else at the time ,now use the 243 would not use a 17 on fox again .

[njc110381]

I guess the steel thickness thing really depends on the temper of the metal, but 10mm is pretty thick for a HMR! I can't see it going through. Even 5mm would be a challenge for it I'd have thought?

 

http://varmintal.com/17hmr.htm

 

In fact if you look at this link just over half way down the page it wouldn't go through 3/16" steel, which is about 4.8mm.

[Evil Elvis]

I don't recall calling you a liar on saturday, although however I do notice that you plate has got thinner.

 

No you have miss quoted me I told Matt to double the thickness for safety on the truck, as i have shot through 7 mm, where did i say i had shot through 10mm?

 

 

On saturday you actually called fatcat a liar by saying you didnt believe him??? so if your not calling us liars what are you saying?

[magman]

done a few with the 17 because i had nothing else at the time ,now use the 243 would not use a 17 on fox again .

 

Bet you would if you were sitting waiting for rabbits and charlie popped out 20 yrds up the hedge your telling me you would not bother ?

[Mr_Logic]

The fact that you managed a hit doesn't make the shot respectful - HMR is not a tool to do that, I know you think otherwise but really, honestly, truly, you're wrong. If you want to respect the animal, use your new 222 - that is what it's there for!

[magman]

No you have miss quoted me I told Matt to double the thickness for safety on the truck, as i have shot through 7 mm, where did i say i had shot through 10mm?

 

 

On saturday you actually called fatcat a liar by saying you didnt believe him??? so if your not calling us liars what are you saying?

 

Thought you said he did you southern boys

[MC]

No you have miss quoted me I told Matt to double the thickness for safety on the truck, as i have shot through 7 mm, where did i say i had shot through 10mm?

 

 

On saturday you actually called fatcat a liar by saying you didnt believe him??? so if your not calling us liars what are you saying?

 

 

I give up,

 

You quite obviously have the most powerful .17 HMR in the world that also defies gravity,

 

If you read your quote on my last post you will see where YOU said "My hmr will go through 10mm at close range" It was not a misquote it was taken DIRECTLY from your post. I can also go back back and find your posts about shooting 298 yards with no holdover. Something else that is IMPOSSIBLE

 

If you want to believe that I called you a liar then so be it, As I don't believe your HMR will go through 10mm Plate steel, and I also don't believe you can hit a coke can base at 300 yards. If you can consistently I suggest you contact the olympic selection squad as you are obviously some kind of Marksman.

[MC]

I guess the steel thickness thing really depends on the temper of the metal, but 10mm is pretty thick for a HMR! I can't see it going through. Even 5mm would be a challenge for it I'd have thought?

 

http://varmintal.com/17hmr.htm

 

In fact if you look at this link just over half way down the page it wouldn't go through 3/16" steel, which is about 4.8mm.

 

 

NJC,

 

What you are forgetting is the EE's .17 has also gone through 16 inches of solid oak, also a feat I would like to witness as I seriously doubt my 7.62 would do that.

[Evil Elvis]

I wasnt talking about 10mm, I was talking about 7mm...witnessed by Matt and you still dont believe me. OK so Im a liar..lets leave it at that

[Paddy Galore!]

Hold on guys, i reckon it's got more to do with ammo manufacture, they're not all alike, i use federal, and i think it's quite low powered compared to remington. i tried some rounds out for comparison last week, hornady blue tip were the softest, followed by federal v max, the remingtons were the hardest hitting and were the only round to go through a 3mm stainless plate at 75 metres, they all went through at 25 metres. i didn't try them any closer or with thicker material, at a guess i would say 3mm S/S is equivalent to 6mm mild steel. However, i would struggle to believe that any hmr round would go through 10mm of steel, my 22/250 wont do that at 10m with remi 50gr soft points, norma 50gr hornady, winchester 55gr sx3's, or remi 55gr core loct.

Edited May 30, 2010 by GRAM71

[Raja Clavata]

Looks like the Op got his wish; aren't you two shooting in the same team tomorrow?

[jamie g]

i think shooting at foxes with hmr at the ranges people have said on here is abit wrong to be fair. 240 yards is a long way and not much room for error.

 

that little bullet drops alot at that range. so inless you no the drop you would have had to GUESS THE HOLD OVER. this then makes it to much of a gamble

 

and imo isnt being fair on the fox. weather it has killed sheep or not you ! still have to show it respect. lucky this time you killed it outright

 

but in the future please show abit more respect for foxes. as no one wants to see them get injuired and die in some bush somewhere a slow and painfull death

Edited May 31, 2010 by jamie g

[Evil Elvis]

I have a .222 now so i wont need to.....................