Leopard attacks hunter.

[docholiday]

you get a lot of ignorance on here at times and big game hunting is up there with the best topics for the keyboard warriors to spout rubbish.

The facts are hunting helps these kind of animals, they have no predator other than man and the locals obviously don't like things that can eat them. The big carnivores are a bit different to other game as they aren't eaten but its not a lot different to us shooting foxes, and you see how many people prodly photograph their trophies to post up on here.

To have a population of them healthy eough to hunt you have to look after the natural population and that is fact, all the areas where they hunt clamp down on poachers hard and the numbers taken are pretty carefully controlled. With elephants and the likes you'll find protection in the parks has helped them out too well and they are causing a real problem as they will deforest the whole area at which point it will just turn into desert. When they get an elephant shot you'll find a whole local village turns out to harvest the meat. So you have a rich yank paying a bucket load into the local economy and the locals getting a feed out of it doesn't get much more sustainable to me

 

 

well said Alex, some people just dont think before they leap on their keyboards, usually with no idea of what they are talking about, having worked in Kenya for 7 years, and being an avid reader of big game hunting, I have no real desire to do it myself but understand that well managed hunting in Africa is a big source of income for the locals, trackers, skiners, cooks and all the people associated with the safari buisness. where it has been banned they are having real problems with poachers. so please people, get some knowledge or understanding of what you are talking about before you start on about cuddly good looking animals. it does you no credit

doc

[berties]

well said Alex, some people just dont think before they leap on their keyboards, usually with no idea of what they are talking about, having worked in Kenya for 7 years, and being an avid reader of big game hunting, I have no real desire to do it myself but understand that well managed hunting in Africa is a big source of income for the locals, trackers, skiners, cooks and all the people associated with the safari buisness. where it has been banned they are having real problems with poachers. so please people, get some knowledge or understanding of what you are talking about before you start on about cuddly good looking animals. it does you no credit

doc

its the good old social conditioning if you were bought up on using safari game hunting as your source of income and survival,and another chap survives on breeding 10,000 phesants and releasing them to be shot for sport,another chap goes fishing for 50 lobsters and pops them in boiling wateranother raises 100 cows and slaughters them whos the cruelist,some animals are bread for food,some animals need to culled and man needs to live,safari hunting is better being controlled with many taking from the purse or it could be driven underground with the purse being shared by gang leaders

[al4x]

its not like it gets driven underground as you could stop it straight away, however then the locals would have no need for these animals to be about so would resort to their own techniques of killing them which aren't pleasant, poisoning and snaring soon sort them out and lets face it they live a subsistence life and big cats eat them and their animals. While they have a value to the local area and people who run poaching patrols etc they stand more of a chance

[davesw]

what a drip

[gsm1968]

you get a lot of ignorance on here at times and big game hunting is up there with the best topics for the keyboard warriors to spout rubbish.

The facts are hunting helps these kind of animals, they have no predator other than man and the locals obviously don't like things that can eat them. The big carnivores are a bit different to other game as they aren't eaten but its not a lot different to us shooting foxes, and you see how many people prodly photograph their trophies to post up on here.

To have a population of them healthy eough to hunt you have to look after the natural population and that is fact, all the areas where they hunt clamp down on poachers hard and the numbers taken are pretty carefully controlled. With elephants and the likes you'll find protection in the parks has helped them out too well and they are causing a real problem as they will deforest the whole area at which point it will just turn into desert. When they get an elephant shot you'll find a whole local village turns out to harvest the meat. So you have a rich yank paying a bucket load into the local economy and the locals getting a feed out of it doesn't get much more sustainable to me

 

 

I have to have a say here:

 

Personaly I would not want to shoot any big cat, but..................

 

The guy who was mauled was not german, he was a local, employed by the outfitter. You can tell by the accent and the fact he is wearing a shirt indicating it!!

Leopards are not hunted in big groups of blokes walking through the veld, they're smarter than that!!!

He was assisting with the follow up on a wounded Leopard, as were the rest of the team. The gobby yank at the end of the clip is the origional shooter who, shot ******

The rest had been called out after the fact, and were putting themselves at risk to follow up on the wounded animal. Ethicaly and lawfully the right thing to do.

These animals are not hunted indiscriminately on some sort of "general licence", but on a 5 tier system. Leopards are right at the top of the classifications, as "Specialy protected game". A licence to shoot a leopard is an expensive thing to buy, and cane only be used against a lawfull permit where it has been issued after identifying that there is an excess animal in that area. Foreign hunters can only hunt with a local PH,(profesional hunter) who has done courses that make DSC look like boy scouts. Dangerous game minimum calibre is 375H&H. The fact that the PH shot the leopard off of his mate in those conditions, says something about his skill and nerve. I wouldn't like to have had to take that shot, and don't know many who I would trust to do it either.

 

It is part of a game mannagement program, and puts millions into consevation every year. There is a lot of employment in conservation, and a spin off of tourism. Most Hunting takes place in the poorest parts, so the poorest benefit.

 

The idea of some one getting rich selling endangered game to rich foreigners is just laughable. Game has been looked after for years, and it's only the value of the game that keeps them being looked after. Not many have got rich on it yet, It is a life style for these people. They put more back into the system than meets the eye.

 

Most comments here are from people who have never set foot in the Bush veld, possibly not even Africa.

 

Part of ethical hunting is being prepared.This PH had a whole team on stand by who were willing to endanger themselves if need be. He had the skill to follow up and had provided his client with an exellent opportunity. The client caused it to all go wrong, but he sorted it in the end.

Local conservation benefitted by $$$$$$, and the remaining leopards don't fight for teritory and wander into areas where locals will end up killing them.

All mannaged by multiple conservation organisations, and hunting assosiations.

 

 

Yet some "professional" pigeon shooters still feel they are qualified to comment.

As I said "I wouldn't", but don't knock those who do!!

 

Rant over..........................

[Albertan_J]

The poorest benefit lol come on!!!

[carlosdesilva]

The poorest benefit lol come on!!!

The locals get a new fur rug and a load of leopard steaks what more do they want?

[gsm1968]

The poorest benefit lol come on!!!

 

 

 

http://www.kznhunters.co.za/pages/22872

 

 

Just one example of many through out Africa............

[Vipa]

http://www.kznhunters.co.za/pages/22872

 

 

Just one example of many through out Africa............

 

So when some American (or whoever) with more money than sense, spends a quarter of a million dollars on a week long big game hunt.... where does that quarter of a million dollars go?

[A bolt 22.250]

I would love to think that it goes to the comunity but realisticly i think there are a lot off out fitter's and agents lineing there pockets.

[mick miller]

I had a rabbit do that to me once...

 

Nasty.

[Heilan Coo]

you get a lot of ignorance on here at times and big game hunting is up there with the best topics for the keyboard warriors to spout rubbish.

The facts are hunting helps these kind of animals, they have no predator other than man and the locals obviously don't like things that can eat them. The big carnivores are a bit different to other game as they aren't eaten but its not a lot different to us shooting foxes, and you see how many people prodly photograph their trophies to post up on here.

To have a population of them healthy eough to hunt you have to look after the natural population and that is fact, all the areas where they hunt clamp down on poachers hard and the numbers taken are pretty carefully controlled. With elephants and the likes you'll find protection in the parks has helped them out too well and they are causing a real problem as they will deforest the whole area at which point it will just turn into desert. When they get an elephant shot you'll find a whole local village turns out to harvest the meat. So you have a rich yank paying a bucket load into the local economy and the locals getting a feed out of it doesn't get much more sustainable to me

 

I wouldn't dispute that hunting wild big cats is any different to us shooting foxes over here, but what about the thousands of lions bred in captivity for so called "canned hunting". Can't say I've seen any fox farms around here for toffs to come and pay big money to shoot.

[gsm1968]

So when some American (or whoever) with more money than sense, spends a quarter of a million dollars on a week long big game hunt.... where does that quarter of a million dollars go?

 

 

Every one he comes in to contact benefits, weather it's travel, accomodation or just curiosity sellers.

 

I would love to think that it goes to the comunity but realisticly i think there are a lot off out fitter's and agents lineing there pockets.

 

The out fitters are doing it for a living, they are entitled to earn a wage, some make good money and some just get by.

 

 

http://www.kznwildlife.com/index.php?/KZN-...on-Results.html

 

This is a link to the auction results of the conservation body in KZN, where they state how locals benefit by the sale. The animals sold at auction go into private ownership for hunting, breeding stock and eco-tourism. Feel free to browse the rest of their site, as working with poor rural comunities is high on the agenda.

They only sell what they have too many of, or endangered species that need to be bred more. All well mannaged.

 

 

 

 

We would not have endangered species if we had the capability of breeding "thousands for canned shooting"

Where do you get your info?

 

 

Putting some money into a charity employing overpaid fat cats supporting wild life/starving rural africans, and going to bed all warm and fuzzy hasn't helped yet. These people are making a difference.

[docholiday]

Well said gsm,

I can not understand how people who shoot in this country come on here like tree huggers saying that its naughty to shoot big cats, If they want to join the anti brigade so be it but please stop being so hypocritical. Get your facts correct then have a meaningfull debate, otherwise please..... you sound no different than those who managed to ban fox hunting.. ie ill informed and anti the sport we all enjoy.

doc

[Vipa]

Well said gsm,

I can not understand how people who shoot in this country come on here like tree huggers saying that its naughty to shoot big cats, If they want to join the anti brigade so be it but please stop being so hypocritical. Get your facts correct then have a meaningfull debate, otherwise please..... you sound no different than those who managed to ban fox hunting.. ie ill informed and anti the sport we all enjoy.

doc

 

No Doc.... not the sport we all enjoy..... If you enjoy killing animals because it's fun then that is just blood thirsty and barbaric, nothing more nothing less..... No one eats leopard, I don't believe for one minute that it poses any real threat to livestock in African communities... Irrespective as to whether or not it brings money into African communities (which I am highly dubious about) Big cats in particular as well as Rhino are shot at HUGE cost by wealthy westerners just so they can say "I killed one of those" and then hang the stuffed head on their living room wall! That's if their country's government will actually allow them to bring it into the country in the first place!

 

There is absolutely NO hypocritiscism im my attitude towards this..... I love shooting and I gain pleasure from shooting clays with my shottie and targets with my rifle, I shoot live quarry because I am trying to get away from factory farmed meat and find the whole abatoir system heinous, I want to eat free range meat, whose dispatch I was in control of.... If the freezer is full, I stick to targets and clays AND I FEEL GUILTY EVERYTIME I TAKE A DEER OR A PIGEON! I do not keep trophies, in fact I find the whole trophy thing a little sinister and sick.... I take no pleasure in killing anything and this is the difference....... most of the hunting undertaken in Africa is purely for the bragging rights, the trophy and the pleasure of the kill....... nothing else!

 

If that makes me a tree hugging hippy then fine..... that's what I'll be!

[docholiday]

Here what you are saying Vipa, but maybe we should be honest, I shoot because I enjoy it, same reason as the those who can afford to do in Africa, yes I enjoy eating a lot that I shoot and yes it often helps the farmers... but I could go to the butchers etc if I wanted to and buy good quality free range meat without shooting it myself

 

I shoot for enjoyment, for the friends i spend time with and for the fun of being outdoors

 

I do not shoot to put food on the table.

 

and i suspect 99% of us are the same

doc

Edited June 29, 2010 by docholiday

[Highlander]

As usual a load of **** talked about stuff people know nothing about . The following is not intended to justify killing any animals but rather to educate the blind. Rural Africa (as opposed to the cities and towns you see on the football) is NOT like you see on today’s chocolate box animal world depicted on TV, it’s raw, dangerous and B***** BIG!

 

The chap in this DVD clip will need serious hospital treatment as those wounds will go septic within an hour. Leopards kill men by leaping on them, holding onto their shoulders/heads with their teeth and claws whilst slashing down with their back legs to disembowel their prey. This guy was lucky, it looks like he managed to kick the cat off before it managed to do him too much damage. I wouldn’t like to say how I‘d react if attacked by that animal but scream I well might, it’s often an involuntary response in the face of fear.

 

The comments regarding American hunters do have some merit as in general they are not the most ‘sporting’ of huntsmen but they are in the majority of Big Game hunters ‘cause they’re the ones with the money. However there are others of all nationalities who haven’t a ‘hunters’ heart only plenty of money. Many PHs take them as they pay well but others are a bit more particular. However the same could also be said of some British hunters I’ve come across. B)

 

Without the vast amounts of money generated by Big Game hunting many areas of Africa would be devoid of game. Leopard are numerous and certainly not an endangered species, in fact like all Big Game, they are an asset to be conserved as they bring much needed currency to the country. In areas where they are not numerous it’s usually down to the fact that they have little value and are considered pests. If you’re a cattle rancher or a Game rancher then you’ll always have to deal with leopard. You provide the habitat and the food and they take advantage.

 

Hunting Big game especially a dangerous animal such as leopard in thick bush is a very dangerous game. Firstly in most cases the animal is hunting you (especially if it’s wounded). My PH has government licences to hunt some 12 leopard a year and any he hunts personally (usually a wounded or rogue animal) he hunts with a shotgun (at short range and with damn BIG cartridges) as in thick bush a rifle is no good. His ranch is very remote, so much so that he his wife(who’s also a qualified PH) and his teenage kids attend annual military training in case they have to defend their ranch against marauders. We’re talking serious remoteness here, their ranch is some 60000 (sixty thousand) acres surrounded by miles of nothing but bush.

[Heilan Coo]

We would not have endangered species if we had the capability of breeding "thousands for canned shooting"

Where do you get your info?

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009...ng-south-africa

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/featu...uth-Africa.html

 

 

There is a few other sites with reports on it, just use google.

By the way, I'm just pointing out that it happens, I'm not some anti or tree hugger and I do indeed enjoy shooting. Just that releasing a lion into say 100 acres to track down isn't exactly giving it a sporting chance and even less so in more extreme cases where the lion is shot with a tranquiliser first.

[Richie10]

Can't understand the strange attitude on here. These companies that offer these trips bring local employment and conserve local wildlife.

How can people call that blood thirsty?

I hunt because I enjoy what I get to take home and the excitement it gives me. This is perfectly natural for humans and animals.

 

We should set up an anti forum on here so people can express their views.

 

If wealthy people want to pay money to do this then it's upto them as it helps the economy, the local people and the quarry.

There really isn't much difference in this to paying to shoot pheasants, pigeons, deer or boar. But because it looks good makes a difference, exactly the same argument from the anti fox hunting brigade.

[Vipa]

Can't understand the strange attitude on here. These companies that offer these trips bring local employment and conserve local wildlife.

How can people call that blood thirsty?

I hunt because I enjoy what I get to take home and the excitement it gives me. This is perfectly natural for humans and animals.

 

We should set up an anti forum on here so people can express their views.

 

If wealthy people want to pay money to do this then it's upto them as it helps the economy, the local people and the quarry.

There really isn't much difference in this to paying to shoot pheasants, pigeons, deer or boar. But because it looks good makes a difference, exactly the same argument from the anti fox hunting brigade.

 

 

I think you have missunderstood me.....

 

Game animals such as Elephant and even Giraffe (although I find this one a little difficult to swllow as they tend to be so docile... to see an American (nationality used as he was American) whooping and jumping round because he just bagged a Giraffe that was minding it's own business and was more likely to come over to say hello than try and run..... Anyhoo.... Elephants cause untold damage and are a food source, Giraffes are a food source, both are in plentiful supply, in a lot of areas verging on plague proportions... A little like Deer over here, good eating, reaching pest proportions and damaging property and crops..... I fully understand that and as you say... if someone is stupid enough to blow $50,000 to shoot an Elephant, who am I to critiscise, I will gladly pay £100 to shoot a deer, however, I do that in the knowledge that by doing so, I am helping to control an otherwise uncontrolled population, I am putting meat on mine or anothers table, I am helping to prevent damage to property and crops and most importantly for me, I am ensuring that my meat is completely free range and I have controlled its demise.

 

Big cats however are not a staple food source although I would assume that some of the hunter, gatherer tribes in central Africa would look upon Lion, Leopard or Cheetah as manna from heaven as they do with ANY food they can eat...

 

The wealthy westerner is not putting meat on his or anyone elses table by shooting big cats, as I said earlier, he is doing it for the bragging rights and to be able to nail a severed and stuffed head to the wall, the pleasure derived here is purely in killing something, not achieving an outcome, sure, the stalk is exciting, probably terrifying but the end act, in this case, is not justifiable!! Big cats are not a big enough threat to livestock and crops to warrant culling on the scale it is and indeed, the fact that they see the need to 'manufacture' cats for hunting is testament to that!

 

There is a difference between this and Boar, Deer, pheasant shooting in this country, at least pheasants go into the food chain and again provide (almost) free range meat even if they do not fall into the same catagory as the other quarry in that they need managing to prevent damage etc...

[docholiday]

I think you have missunderstood me.....

 

Game animals such as Elephant and even Giraffe (although I find this one a little difficult to swllow as they tend to be so docile... to see an American (nationality used as he was American) whooping and jumping round because he just bagged a Giraffe that was minding it's own business and was more likely to come over to say hello than try and run..... Anyhoo.... Elephants cause untold damage and are a food source, Giraffes are a food source, both are in plentiful supply, in a lot of areas verging on plague proportions... A little like Deer over here, good eating, reaching pest proportions and damaging property and crops..... I fully understand that and as you say... if someone is stupid enough to blow $50,000 to shoot an Elephant, who am I to critiscise, I will gladly pay £100 to shoot a deer, however, I do that in the knowledge that by doing so, I am helping to control an otherwise uncontrolled population, I am putting meat on mine or anothers table, I am helping to prevent damage to property and crops and most importantly for me, I am ensuring that my meat is completely free range and I have controlled its demise.

 

Thats all they are doing in Africa

 

Big cats however are not a staple food source although I would assume that some of the hunter, gatherer tribes in central Africa would look upon Lion, Leopard or Cheetah as manna from heaven as they do with ANY food they can eat...

 

If you had a meagre heard or a few goats, then a big cat is a very real threat to your ability to survive. more so could i suggest than a few pigeons or a fox.

 

 

The wealthy westerner is not putting meat on his or anyone elses table by shooting big cats,

 

A lot of things i shoot dont end up on anybodies table.. foxes, a lot of rabbit are to badly damaged etc.

 

as I said earlier, he is doing it for the bragging rights and to be able to nail a severed and stuffed head to the wall, the pleasure derived here is purely in killing something, not achieving an outcome, sure, the stalk is exciting, probably terrifying but the end act, in this case, is not justifiable!! Big cats are not a big enough threat to livestock and crops to warrant culling on the scale it is and indeed, the fact that they see the need to 'manufacture' cats for hunting is testament to that!

This is a minority and happens on a very limitted basis, but how different is it to pheasant shooting ??

 

 

There is a difference between this and Boar, Deer, pheasant shooting in this country, at least pheasants go into the food chain and again provide (almost) free range meat even if they do not fall into the same catagory as the other quarry in that they need managing to prevent damage etc...

disagree it is no different at all

 

The only argument you seem to put forward is that it is wrong to shoot them because they are cute or cuddley. I am afraid a lot of Does and fox cubs I shoot look just as cute. I also maintain they do far less damage than the big cats Giraffe etc who have to eat huge amounts to maintain themselves. If you saw the damage a few elephant can cause you might understand

doc

doc

Edited June 29, 2010 by docholiday

[Richie10]

Fair enough.

 

However you would be proud of putting a good deer head on your wall as a trophy and I guess you photograph some of the stuff you have shot as a trophy.

 

It seems to be that in this country we have to justify why we enjoy country pursuits, it's because we want to put food on the table, because we are controlling populations....fact is we enjoy it.

The antis have the population wrapped round their little fingers, only serial killers and saddists enjoy these sports if you would believe it all.

 

Anyway good vid, certainly needs some balls to do this. Not quite shooting bunnies.

[Vipa]

Fair enough.

 

However you would be proud of putting a good deer head on your wall as a trophy and I guess you photograph some of the stuff you have shot as a trophy.

 

Please re-read my posts re this! you will not find a photo of me anywhere standing 'proudly' over what I have killed!

 

Doc... I have already agreed that Elephants need controlling and Giraffe provide food although I am unsure of the extent of damage they do, IFAIK not a great deal (giraffe that is). Nothing to do with cute and cuddly, Leopards, whilst not currently an endangered species are classified as 'near endangered,' Lion is endangered and is classified as 'vulnerable,' White Rhino is 'near threatened,' Hippopotamus is threatened and 'vulnerable,' What harm do hippos cause to crops and livestock?

 

They are killed to put a tick in a box and put a trophy on a wall!!

 

My point is here that the poulations of these creatures are not finite. If there are localised problems with them then yes, deal with them. A lot of farmers would disagree with the wholesale slaughter of fox, just because of what it 'might' do, they take action if it becomes necessary, I am not advocating the rights or wrongs of this but then foxes aren't exectly an endangered species.

 

We all have differing views especially on a subject as emotive as this but please..... do not try to justify the unnecessary slaughter of endangered species for pleasure without the damage statistics to back up that justification... show me those and I'll shut the **** up!

Edited June 29, 2010 by Vipa

[pavman]

silly silly boys, big cats should be left alone unless they are a problem

[al4x]

so Vipa you don't agree that by them having a financial worth its actually good for their survival? I'll say it again Shooting and conservation go hand in hand and this is no different. As for the financial impact of big cats it matters not, all they do is eat locals goats and cows and their children, no biggie as they are all pretty worthless. However if the cats aren't worth anything and the hunting areas aren't policed the locals will do a good job of killing them themselves by whatever means. When you live in a hut and depend on your animals for food protecting them so nice foreigners can come and look at them doesn't come into it.

As for the rhinos I don't think you'll find they are hunted