wymberley Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 We certainly have looked into patterning - We use the standard of at least 100 pellets in the 30in circle, which is the current minimum for clean kills of pheasant, based on US research. Smaller quary like pigenn needs a higher density? Maybe BASC’s steel pattern counts for UK no. 4 steel (32g Hull Steel Game) start at an average 148 through cylinder choke at 30yd. At 40yd the average is 171 through half choke, but only 90 through cylinder. Larger no.3 (3.3mm) shot patterns start at an average of 127 at 30yd through cylinder choke and, at 40yd, 156 through half choke, again falling below the 100 threshold (88) through cylinder. More research to be done by our boys and girls in the research team no doubt. Regards David David, hi. Sorry about my last post(#74), tripped over your post while trying to work out how to word this one and couldn't resist it. With about half the body mass, I think we can safely say that a pigeon is going to need a fair few more pellets in the 30" circle than that of a pheasant. With regard to this 30" circle, does the American research that you mention and which BASC utilises regarding patterns take into account the phenomenon that they call "central thickening"? David, I do not expect an immediate answer, appreciating that you may need a word with Dr. JH or his boys and girls. Even a reference that I can access would suffice. Many thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 Uk Fowler the number of pellets in a lead or steel shell is not that important its the number of pellets in the killing circle thats important. Steel paterns are not the same as lead patterns. For a given number of pellets there will be more in the 30 in circle with steel that lead of the same load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK fowler Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 answer2 totaly agree on the steel patterns they do hold together much better than lead but that is not the point of the post.its the shot size in mm I was trying to highlight look again at davidbasc's post he quotes "steel shot size 3#(3.3mm)"which is not the case steel shot in size 3# is 3.5mm check gamebores web site they dont list all the sizes now but they do list two of them steel shot size4#3.25mm and steel shot size 71/2# 2.5mm a uk lead 71/2# is 2.3mm I take it you reload also and you say you shoot widgeon with steel 3# what do these 3# measure in mm ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 the interesting thing with pricing is no doubt the manufacturers are pricing them to compete with lead yet using a far cheaper raw material so must be making a better profit margin. Its interesting seeing people using anything up to 3's on pigeons, look laterally and what are you meant to use for game you traditionally would use 3's on? are we to resort to BB's or bigger on hare days etc let me say that is a serious accident in the making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 Good evening Wymberley, The short answer is I dont know by will speak with Dr J next week ATB David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 23, 2010 Report Share Posted July 23, 2010 Good evening Wymberley, The short answer is I dont know by will speak with Dr J next week ATB David David, good evening. Thankyou, as and when you can, please do not put yourself out Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilo17 Posted July 25, 2010 Report Share Posted July 25, 2010 (edited) Does anyone know the price of Gamebore silver steel? Just been quoted £340 for a 1000 silver steel! and £294 for steel fibre! Think I will be sticking to lead till they come down! Edited July 28, 2010 by gilo17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 25, 2010 Report Share Posted July 25, 2010 i wish the silver steel were more available than they are. i think they would be ok. not really any alternates... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 Wymberley, Patterns typically are centre-weighted but the 30in count takes that into account - as long as the actual distribution from a given gun/cartridge combination is not over centre-weighted. We use an inner 20in circle to check for undue departure from the typical distribution. Best wishes David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 (edited) Wymberley, Patterns typically are centre-weighted but the 30in count takes that into account - as long as the actual distribution from a given gun/cartridge combination is not over centre-weighted. We use an inner 20in circle to check for undue departure from the typical distribution. Best wishes David David, That was quick, especially after what must have been a hectic weekend for everyone. Thankyou. Could I ask you to go one step further? The "over centre- weighted" and "undue departure" bits have got me. Would you expect for, say, a 30" pattern of 60% (that would be, for example, 1/2 choke at 40 yards) to have 33.5% (sorry for the pedantic .5 but I have quoted from my source (Ed Lowry)) of that overall percentage in the 20" circle or would that be "undue departure"? David, again many thanks and again, please do not put yourself out. Cheers Edit: David, my omission was pure bad manners, please thank Dr J for me. Edited July 27, 2010 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 Hi, Maybe the best bet is to give Dr John a call and chat it through with him? The research depts. telephone number is 01244 573 016, The undue departure, I suspect, is looking at how far away from the expected distribution -( Standard deviation?) the pattern presents. ie. there will always be some degree of variation shot to shot, but most may not be large enough variations to be statistically significant. However I could be wrong! D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 (edited) i think he`s talking about "hot core" patterns, where the distribution isnt uniform. its way tighter at the centre, hence hot core. the smaller cartridges would be more responsive to chokes, as the shotcolumn is shorter. (although the lower shotcount will have a major impact.) incidently shouldnt really alter the way you shoot, just make you more spot on. Edited July 27, 2010 by cookoff013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 (edited) i think he`s talking about "hot core" patterns, where the distribution isnt uniform. its way tighter at the centre, hence hot core. the smaller cartridges would be more responsive to chokes, as the shotcolumn is shorter. (although the lower shotcount will have a major impact.) incidently shouldnt really alter the way you shoot, just make you more spot on. Hi, thanks for your input. Apart from the term I used above and one other, I have not heard of "hot core" before. Please could you tell me is it a purposely designed load or load fired through very tight chokes to give that distribution or is it another term for the standard pattern spread which we know is not regular throughout the 30" circle apart from, perhaps, TC. Thanks in advance. Edited July 27, 2010 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 skeet chokes are supposed to be open, and uniform. tighter chokes are supposed to be more uniform with a higher %. but often end up with a very dense centre, a hot core. this could be your point of impact, it also should be your point of aim ! turkey chokes and turkey cartridges are supposed to reduce meat damage. they are the most hot centre patterns, but they are also the biggest cartridges with a very tall shotcolumn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted July 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 Well, I gave the Gamebore Super Steel 32g #4's a try today in the old Benelli and to the surprise of the 'Flat Earth Society' members on here my barrel didn't burst, split or show any damage at all. Only shot one box so it's too early to form an opinon, but I maintained my usual average of 3:1 shots to kill (picked birds) and most of those died in the air. If it hadn't been for them being slightly noisier than the Gamebore Pigeon Special 30g #6's I have been using I wouldn't have noticed the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 Hi, Maybe the best bet is to give Dr John a call and chat it through with him? The research depts. telephone number is 01244 573 016, The undue departure, I suspect, is looking at how far away from the expected distribution -( Standard deviation?) the pattern presents. ie. there will always be some degree of variation shot to shot, but most may not be large enough variations to be statistically significant. However I could be wrong! D Good idea, David. Thankyou. So I did and it was well worth it. The information I have on central thickening is largely valid and as it turned out the information I have about average pellet strikes is also considered valid. However, more importantly Dr. J was able to explain what his department is currently doing with regard to shotgun ballistics. Everything is in the melting pot and although inevitably the work will take a while the results should be of far more benefit to we shooters as the work revolves around real shooting and real numbers and not percentages and "models" which sometimes appear to be plucked from the ether. When I put the 'phone down, in this regard one thought did cross my mind and which was the one "crime" that BASC could legitimately be accused of. To find it, re-arrange the following words into a well known phrase or saying; light bushel one's hiding a under. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 It's all here http://shotshell.drundel.com/steel.htm From a member of The Flat Earth Society Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bakerboy Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 What's the opinions on the increasing number of non-toxic options for pigeon cartridges? I've seen some reasonably priced 28g - 30g ones in size 4 & 5 shot and was wondering if anyone has any experience of using them especially whether they aresuited to older guns with more open chokes. I will be giving them a try this weekend. I have been asked to supplier pigeons to a Falcon breeder, and lead shot is a no no. I will let you know how I get on, next week sometime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Elvis Posted July 28, 2010 Report Share Posted July 28, 2010 I dont suppose steel shot would do it a lot of good?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted August 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 Well I've just finished the first 100 cartridges of Gamebore 32g #4 steel and formed an opinion. In the last couple of days steel shot was used side by side with Gamebore Clear Pigeon 30g #6's in the same hide / conditions / etc. in my old quarter choked Benelli 121 semi-auto (not steel proofed). I was collecting pigeons for hawk food and so kept the steel shot pigeons seperate. I started off with lead and then interchanged. The steel cartridges kick more and are noticibly louder even with ear plugs in. At first I had a few wounded birds with both types, then once I got my eye in the steel killed virtually every bird that dropped. Yes, I plucked a few with both types of shot, but of the ones that hit the deck the steel shot birds were invariably dead whilst the lead shot ones were mostly dead. Too small a sample to form a definitive opinion, but it mirrors other's comments and certainly gives me confidence in them, especially as some of the shots that killed birds in the air were 30 - 40 yard fast crossing birds. And the gun? No marks on the barrel, no internal scoring. Nothing to show that steel had been used. I've just bought a slab. I would have preferred to try #5's rather than #4's for pigeon at any rate, but the shop only had the larger size in stock. #4's will probably be better for duck next month. £47.50 for the slab means there is nothing in the cost against the Clear Pigeons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 32g #4's should be ok for pigeon. How do you think 28g of 7.5's in steel would've faired? Serious question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 One of the farmers I shoot for will not stock wood pigeons in his farm shop because of the lead shot. If I used steel he would buy them from me. Hence the question. And why on earth would a farmer NOT sell lead shot pigeons (or for that matter any other game meat) in his farm shop? Nobody ever died from ingesting lead whilst eating (as oppossed to just 'ingesting' it) but I'm willing to bet that should steel shot become the norm there'll be a lot of people suing for their dentistry bills! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/ind...howtopic=135196 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Remember that Steel 7.5 is NOT the same size as lead 7.5. Lead is 2.3mm, steel is 2.5mm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Remember that Steel 7.5 is NOT the same size as lead 7.5. Lead is 2.3mm, steel is 2.5mm. also i`m finding a differential between american and uk shotsizes. this was done using the pellets per oz. no-onder reloading is minefield. uk steel 4 worked out to be us 5 in steel. ! i couldnt believe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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