Advice on caliber please.....

[njc110381]

Kent, Dekers - I think you're arguing over something you're agreeing on, or pretty much. Some Deer run, some don't. I think a lot of it is down to how relaxed they are before they're shot and how jumpy they are, and then perhaps a bit of luck thrown in?! I've had them run, I've had them just fall over - they're wild animals and you can never really be sure what they'll do!

 

There's a video somewhere on Youtube of someone shooting a Deer with a .50BMG round. It runs off even though it's hit well! Then there's another of a Red stag that drops on the spot with a single round from a .243?

 

I think the best answer, and this is the way I work, is to use the biggest gun practical for the job that you can shoot properly. There's no point having a .308 if it scares you into pulling your shots but at the same time if you can handle it why restrict yourself to the .243? Whatever the answer, the first and foremost consideration has to be that you can shoot accurately with whatever it is that you have.

 

For an all rounder I'm still a fan of the 6.5/7mm. They're not too huge so they're mild on the shoulder but they're big enough to launch a Scottish legal bullet weight with room to spare. That's the only down side I can see for the .243, it just can't throw the weight needed without being pushed to the limit and many short barrelled rifles in the calibre can't even reach the minimum energy requirement with factory ammo and a 100 grain bullet!

[Mungler]

Don't waste your time on a .223 - you'll probably never take one to a deer in Scotland or a Munty down here. It's a real case of falling between two stools. Much the same for the .243 - too much for fox, maybe not enough for deer.

 

If you want a dedicated foxing gun get something like a .22 Hornet - much fun.

 

.25-06 or .308 does everything mentioned on here and more.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Mungler

[kent]

Kent, Dekers - I think you're arguing over something you're agreeing on, or pretty much. Some Deer run, some don't. I think a lot of it is down to how relaxed they are before they're shot and how jumpy they are, and then perhaps a bit of luck thrown in?! I've had them run, I've had them just fall over - they're wild animals and you can never really be sure what they'll do!

 

There's a video somewhere on Youtube of someone shooting a Deer with a .50BMG round. It runs off even though it's hit well! Then there's another of a Red stag that drops on the spot with a single round from a .243?

 

I think the best answer, and this is the way I work, is to use the biggest gun practical for the job that you can shoot properly. There's no point having a .308 if it scares you into pulling your shots but at the same time if you can handle it why restrict yourself to the .243? Whatever the answer, the first and foremost consideration has to be that you can shoot accurately with whatever it is that you have.

 

For an all rounder I'm still a fan of the 6.5/7mm. They're not too huge so they're mild on the shoulder but they're big enough to launch a Scottish legal bullet weight with room to spare. That's the only down side I can see for the .243, it just can't throw the weight needed without being pushed to the limit and many short barrelled rifles in the calibre can't even reach the minimum energy requirement with factory ammo and a 100 grain bullet!

 

You might be right, but i do feel willy wafting about 20yds leads to unrecoverd deer and a faulse impression. I too use a 7mm regulary 7-08 rem actually, issue is it won't shoot well with bullets lighter than 140 grns although i also have it on ticket for fox it is of use to me only when stalking. If the shooter is not a hand loader he is going to seriously struggle to get varmint type bullets easy with 6.5 upwards though. Ammo availability is a big issue for those who don't home load

[henry d]

Why mess around with different load weights? it only means re zeroing every time you change the ammo, currently using 140gr remmi corelokt thru my 6.5x55 (too lazy to reload), and admittedly, it'll go thru a fox front to back, but dead is dead, so long as there's a safe backdrop you'll be ok.

 

140 is more than man enough for large deer and not meat damaging with roe. 156 is too loopy(some would say so is the 140) and to add 120`s into the equation is nonsense IMHO unless you are paper punching.

[groach1234]

Kent, Dekers - I think you're arguing over something you're agreeing on, or pretty much. Some Deer run, some don't. I think a lot of it is down to how relaxed they are before they're shot and how jumpy they are, and then perhaps a bit of luck thrown in?! I've had them run, I've had them just fall over - they're wild animals and you can never really be sure what they'll do!

 

There's a video somewhere on Youtube of someone shooting a Deer with a .50BMG round. It runs off even though it's hit well! Then there's another of a Red stag that drops on the spot with a single round from a .243?

 

I was going to say the exact same thing about the BMG deer on youtube. All deer can run but whether or not they do is a very different matter.

 

With reference to the comment made earlier about the fallow that was dead but didn't look it, I shot a roe and it looked as if it was about to run so cambered another round, and fired and the deer fell on the spot. Second shot never touched it the first shot took out both lungs and clipped the heart so it was going no where but moved about 5-10 paces.

 

George

[palombier]

Mungler

 

'.243 - too much for fox, maybe not enough for deer'

 

Coudn't disagree more.

 

I've shot many foxes and every uk deer species with my .243 altho' I don't use it for red or sika stags (I use the .275 for them.) Brilliant versatile calibre IMO.

 

Rememeber it was originally designed to shoot foxes

 

P

[Dekers]

I was making the point ALL deer do not run!!!

 

....and...as you have now elaborated.......Actually VERY few when you hit them right after stalking them right, if I have to walk 20 yards from impact point to recover a deer (very rare) I am ****** off and look at what I did wrong.. calm deer well shot fall down! And strange as it may seem they also fall down for all my deer shooting buddies, I have never been out with any of them and had to chase a shot deer more than a few yards, the vast majority drop on the spot!

 

I always find it strange that many on forums seem to expect to chase deer all round the fields after they shoot them. Lets not get into a debate about deer running into the next county with no heart, mine fall down, if others peoples don't please ask them why not, not me!

 

ATB!!

 

 

This sort of think gives new stalkers the wrong idea and leads to a lot of unrecovered dead deer. The BDS published some info on this as part of thier wounding rate research, at a guess 6-7 yrs back i will see if i can find it. As stated previously i have stalked with 30 cal, 7mm, 6.5mm, and .243" there is nil difference in how far they run in relation to calibre. Park deer will tend not to run much but Generally expect most deer to run on chest shots, even things like the bullet striking the background or the report of the gun scares truely wild deer. Totally have to disagree with you that very few run when you stalk them right and shoot them in the chest, this is only twisting my explaination of my poor wording- then again perhaps you shoot Park deer. Ok 100 yds is not that common unless we are talking Sika stags but is perfectly normal for them to take a death dash nothing you can do to improve that. I have witnessed some strange stuff with shot deer once seen a fallow doe chest shot go down then get up and run maybee 60yds as if wounded my companion at the time shot it again on the leg before it reached the wood (congradulating him on what seemed an exellent finishing shot ) on inspection only one hole demolishing the top of the heart his finishing shot was a total miss! Seen deer stand stock still as if missed that were totally dead on thier feet, bad shots drop them on the spot for no obvious reason and quite a few disapear for the horizon looking like a front leg wound with one leg flailing away then go down after more than the 100yds with a hole the size of a mans fist through thier vitals.

Fact is only way to drop them on the spot is neck shoot them behind the lughole i am not a big fan of the practice but it sure works even with a 55grn bullet and a .222. OR pin them definatly not a fan of that!

 

 

I'm really not sure what you are talking about, I have no interest in calibre in these recent responses, I am suggesting ALL deer NO NOT RUN, and what is this about...

 

"This sort of think gives new stalkers the wrong idea and leads to a lot of unrecovered dead deer"

I take it you mean..... accept you are a useless shot and useless stalker with the wrong calibre, wrong ammo and wrong gun, so take a dog out as you are going to do a lot of walking chasing your shot deer!

 

and I hold firm with ...

 

VERY few (run) when you hit them right after stalking them right.....

 

....calm deer well shot fall down

 

seems to me you agree with that!

 

Mine don't run..I don't care what all the BDS members surveys etc say, if they suggest they ALL run, then I suggest a retraining program!

 

ATB!

Edited August 7, 2010 by Dekers

[al4x]

Don't waste your time on a .223 - you'll probably never take one to a deer in Scotland or a Munty down here. It's a real case of falling between two stools. Much the same for the .243 - too much for fox, maybe not enough for deer.

 

If you want a dedicated foxing gun get something like a .22 Hornet - much fun.

 

.25-06 or .308 does everything mentioned on here and more.

 

 

you can keep your hornet Mungler personally its not a proper fox gun, the .243 isn't much more harsh then a .223 to shoot and has a large range of bullet weights to suit most things. Its definitely not too much gun for foxes and throwing a ballistic tip fast helps with reassurance the bullet won't end up in the next county. I'm half regretting buying a .223 simply because though its a great fox gun its not deer legal except for munties so if I want deer then I need something bigger. For me a .243 will do pretty much all I want to, its unlikely I'll have the funds to go and play with big red stags and on the very rare occasion it happens I could just borrow an estate gun. For me the bigger is better brigade seem to forget that foxes are on the menu as well and personally I'd envisage at least 80-90% of my shooting will be on foxes anything from 20 yards to 300 and for that the .243 is perfect with the added bonus that I can take most deer with it. The only dilema of course is do I keep the .223 and get something quite a bit bigger for deer, the only thing putting me off is that I like to have a gun I use regularly, at the moment my .223 very very rarely misses and gets used a lot, a dedicated deer gun I bring out a handful of times a year will I shoot as well with it?

[njc110381]

You have to admit that it's better to train a newbie to expect a runner though surely? Some Deer do run, that's just the nature of the sport. If you train a stalker to track a Deer then he can deal with it if it happens. If it falls down to the shot then it just saves walking. However train them to think that they'll all fall down and one runs... What then?

[Dekers]

you can keep your hornet Mungler personally its not a proper fox gun, the .243 isn't much more harsh then a .223 to shoot and has a large range of bullet weights to suit most things. Its definitely not too much gun for foxes and throwing a ballistic tip fast helps with reassurance the bullet won't end up in the next county. I'm half regretting buying a .223 simply because though its a great fox gun its not deer legal except for munties so if I want deer then I need something bigger. For me a .243 will do pretty much all I want to, its unlikely I'll have the funds to go and play with big red stags and on the very rare occasion it happens I could just borrow an estate gun. For me the bigger is better brigade seem to forget that foxes are on the menu as well and personally I'd envisage at least 80-90% of my shooting will be on foxes anything from 20 yards to 300 and for that the .243 is perfect with the added bonus that I can take most deer with it. The only dilema of course is do I keep the .223 and get something quite a bit bigger for deer, the only thing putting me off is that I like to have a gun I use regularly, at the moment my .223 very very rarely misses and gets used a lot, a dedicated deer gun I bring out a handful of times a year will I shoot as well with it?

 

 

This debate often emerges, thats why there are a lot of different guns, calibres and bullets, just like there are motorbikes, go carts, cars, vans, lorry's, formula one, etc, etc, etc, you will find it difficult to select one of those that does all the other jobs well, same with guns.

 

You need lots!!

 

ATB!!

[njc110381]

a dedicated deer gun I bring out a handful of times a year will I shoot as well with it?

 

 

No, but I'd bet I could hit a Deers vitals with any rifle that anyone hands me as long as I understand the calibre and know it's been set up correctly (which would be pretty much anything from .223 to .375H&H). You don't need to place bullet on bullet for Deer, especially large ones!

[Dekers]

You have to admit that it's better to train a newbie to expect a runner though surely? Some Deer do run, that's just the nature of the sport. If you train a stalker to track a Deer then he can deal with it if it happens. If it falls down to the shot then it just saves walking. However train them to think that they'll all fall down and one runs... What then?

 

 

I believe the principle of what you say is correct, but it is the wording I have issue with!

 

I think you should take the stance of excellance rather than failure, and train people to drop deer, by all means then explain what to do when they get it wrong. Training them to Expect runners and suggesting it is just the nature of the sport, is admitting defeat before you start! Yes it happens, but it is ALWAYS the fault of the shooter, they made a wrong call somewhere.

 

It isn't chance some deer drop and others run, despite what some may suggest, do everything right and they fall down!

 

ATB!!

[Dekers]

Guys

 

This thread is wandering a bit but can we please all get out of our heads some deer just run and some fall down.

 

Some rabbits run too and some fox etc, etc, and some fall down...and why is that, because the shooter did something wrong, accept it, learn and move on.

 

If you drop a deer with a shot, and if it was possible to replicate that shot identically in all respects on another identical deer that would drop too, it would not run off!

 

It isn't though, and small problems of placement, angle, distance, stress, wind, etc, etc, etc all make for different shots even though they may seem identical!

 

Do it wrong somewhere and the deer can run off, do it right and they fall down, please do not kid yourselves you did it right and they just ran off, you didn't!

 

ATB!!

 

 

EDIT

Why is it I already know that some of you are perfect in every respect and you still get runners

Edited August 7, 2010 by Dekers

[Harnser]

I have said it before and I will say it again . Deer do not survive a hit from a centre fire rifle they will all die ...... eventually . A proper placed bullet will kill them instantly ,unless you call going around in circles for a few seconds before dropping running on . Any deer that drops down dead within 100 yards of the spot it was shot is in my book cleanly and humanely killed and suffererd very little pain or trauma . Yes deer are a very tough and resilient beast and if not shot properply can run on for quite a distant and some times not seen again . I can put my hand on my heart and say that I have never had to track a shot deer for more than 100 yards . Most of the deer I have shot have died on the spot with out even twitching .

 

If you do shoot a deer and it runs on and looks as if it will go on for a while dont go after it straight away ,watch were it is going and pick up the spoor and wait for 20 minutes before tracking . This shot deer will be ful of adrenalin and if it is aware of you tracking it it will carry on running . Give it twenty minutes and it will lay down to lick its wounds . Once it has laid down it wont have the strenght to get on its feet again as it will tighten up and be unable to move . If you have to shoot it again now is your chance ,then you can ponder as to why the shot did not kill it outright and I will bet you have gut shot it .

 

Harnser .

[kent]

Guys

 

This thread is wandering a bit but can we please all get out of our heads some deer just run and some fall down.

 

Some rabbits run too and some fox etc, etc, and some fall down...and why is that, because the shooter did something wrong, accept it, learn and move on.

 

If you drop a deer with a shot, and if it was possible to replicate that shot identically in all respects on another identical deer that would drop too, it would not run off!

 

It isn't though, and small problems of placement, angle, distance, stress, wind, etc, etc, etc all make for different shots even though they may seem identical!

 

Do it wrong somewhere and the deer can run off, do it right and they fall down, please do not kid yourselves you did it right and they just ran off, you didn't!

 

ATB!!

 

 

EDIT

 

 

 

 

Why is it I already know that some of you are perfect in every respect and you still get runners

 

 

 

I think all experianced stalkers know this is not correct and i will leave the subject there is no point in discussing it with you, only way to garantee they go down on the spot is neck shots and pinning, are these exepted as good practice? definatly not pinning and neck shot carry a much greater risk of wounding and one of the very lowest recovery rates even with dogs when it occurs

[Dekers]

I think all experianced stalkers know this is not correct and i will leave the subject there is no point in discussing it with you, only way to garantee they go down on the spot is neck shots and pinning, are these exepted as good practice? definatly not pinning and neck shot carry a much greater risk of wounding and one of the very lowest recovery rates even with dogs when it occurs

 

My friend, your experiences with deer are at odds with mine, I really have no issue if yours go for a stroll round the countryside after you shoot them but mine don't, and I think you will find every experienced deer stalker knows fully well in their heart IF you do your part properly in all respects they fall down!!

 

If you have a problem with your deer I would be happy to come over and demonstrate! If I can't put one straight down then I will apologize and buy you a pint!

 

It's very simple, do it right and they drop, and if you can't/don't, for whatever reason, then expect runners!

 

Look very carefully and honestly at all aspects of your next one that runs, odds are you will find a reason why!

 

ATB!!

[malkiserow]

There is some very good food for thought lads, thank you.

 

Which caliber will do with job with the least meat damage? My limited understanding needs your experience to be sure I am on the right track with this ..... a slower heavier round like the 6.5 55 will do less damage than a .243? But where does the .308 fit in the equation?

[Harnser]

The age old question of meat damage . My view on meat damage on shot deer is that it is minimal and dosent vary from one calibre to another to make a jot of differance . How much meat damage is there when you shoot a deer ,1 0unce ,2 0unces ,3 ounces ? you tell me I have never measured it . I can assure you that more meat is damaged and wasted on deer by poor butchering than by shooting .

Harnser .

[Dekers]

There is some very good food for thought lads, thank you.

 

Which caliber will do with job with the least meat damage? My limited understanding needs your experience to be sure I am on the right track with this ..... a slower heavier round like the 6.5 55 will do less damage than a .243? But where does the .308 fit in the equation?

 

 

It is more to do with the type of ammo and shot placement than just calibre.

 

A light, fast .243 ballistic tip hitting bone is likely to cause a massive crater and lots of meat damage. A heavy .308 with SP ammo may go straight through leaving a relatively small wound channel if it only hits soft tissue.

 

Remember the trajectory and power of these different ammos will also be pretty different as well!

[Harnser]

It is more to do with the type of ammo and shot placement than just calibre.

 

A light, fast .243 ballistic tip hitting bone is likely to cause a massive crater and lots of meat damage. A heavy .308 with SP ammo may go straight through leaving a relatively small wound channel if it only hits soft tissue.

 

Remember the trajectory and power of these different ammos will also be pretty different as well!

How much is lots of meat damage .?

Harnser .

Edited August 7, 2010 by Harnser

[Dekers]

How much is lots of meat damage .?

Harnser .

 

Pest Control Work ok, and not me, my shooting partner that day!

 

Heart shot Roe at 258 Yards with .243 58g V Max left nothing but 4 legs edible!

 

The deer was literally dead on its feet, we had time to look at each other and couldn't work out what had happened, then it simply fell over just like in the cartoons!

 

Never seen such a mess, but no pain, no twitching, no running, an instant a death as possible!

[Raja Clavata]

Unless you get an open cert it may be worth considering if all the land you intend to shoot over is cleared for .308?

 

I think if you asked most people, without qualification, for their opinion of the most flexible CF calibre they'd likely respond with .243.

 

Most people seem to find it hard to recommend something they don't own themselves and there's evidence of that in this thread. I'm afraid I'm no different.

 

Personally my thinking would be along the lines of:

fox & majority of UK deer = .243 (everything bar large Red & Sika stags)

All UK deer = 6.5 x 55 (but I think some estates prefer bigger still on large Red & Sika stags!?)

Anything up to and including wild boar = .308 (although 6.5 x 55 is also an adequate calibre but again some places will demand bigger)

 

All options are flexible but there is not really one perfect fits all across the spectrum, each has trade-offs / constraints. Ask yourself where your sweet spot lies and you probably have your answer. Personally I'm likely to go the old fashioned route: .243 for everything up to 100grn and .308 100grn up. If something needs more than 180 - 200 grn's then I probably don't want to be in the same county as it.

[Harnser]

Malki , just a couple of bits of advice . You shouldnt be contemplating what calibre to use for deer stalking by the amount of meat damage it will or wont do on the beast . The meat damage is minimal . Go for a .308 winchester and you will have the choise of from 100 grain bullets up to 240 grain . If you are worried about meat damage then you could try to take them with a stick cut out of the hedgerow . Kill them clean and worry about meat damage afterwards .

 

Harnser .

[malkiserow]

Unless you get an open cert it may be worth considering if all the land you intend to shoot over is cleared for .308?

 

I think if you asked most people, without qualification, for their opinion of the most flexible CF calibre they'd likely respond with .243.

 

Most people seem to find it hard to recommend something they don't own themselves and there's evidence of that in this thread. I'm afraid I'm no different.

 

Personally my thinking would be along the lines of:

fox & majority of UK deer = .243 (everything bar large Red & Sika stags)

All UK deer = 6.5 x 55 (but I think some estates prefer bigger still on large Red & Sika stags!?)

Anything up to and including wild boar = .308 (although 6.5 x 55 is also an adequate calibre but again some places will demand bigger)

 

All options are flexible but there is not really one perfect fits all across the spectrum, each has trade-offs / constraints. Ask yourself where your sweet spot lies and you probably have your answer. Personally I'm likely to go the old fashioned route: .243 for everything up to 100grn and .308 100grn up. If something needs more than 180 - 200 grn's then I probably don't want to be in the same county as it.

 

It is mixed - some cleared for .308 and some .243

 

The advice is good and certainly mixed.

 

Which of these 3 clibers is generaly the flatest shooting?

[al4x]

.243 would be my guess but as ever depends on bullet weight and speed etc

 

I'm going through this at the moment, got a renewal coming up so need to decide whether to keep the .223 and go much bigger or just get a .243. Think its coming down to just a .243 as I can get one much better gun and glass rather than two,