G.I. countrysports U.K. GARY Posted March 27, 2003 Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 Please could someone give me advice about stop whistle training... I am not a novice in training gundogs but I do admit that this is one area of training where I don't get it right... Please allow me to explain this particular problem... Young lab, very well bred bitch, 14 months old, performs very well in all of the aspects of gundog training what she has been show so far... Appart from the stop whistle... She is fine on the whistle at heel and at a distance up to 100yds off the lead. She obeys the command to sit on the whistle and hand signal well. The problems start when I throw a retreive or a simple blind. She ignores the stop whistle completely. It seems that she panicks at the sound of the stop whistle, hunts faster, and I am sure she thinks that she is in trouble for not finding the dummy quicker, she certainly gives me that impression on her return, ears back, submissive ect. How can I reassure the dog that I am trying to help her find the dummy and not telling her off for taking too long? I am concious of trying not to blow the whistle too hard. But as I said earlier this is one area of training that has always been a struggle for me... I would really appreciate any tips and advice... All the very best... Gary Wilson G.I. country sports U.K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted March 27, 2003 Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 Go back to the start. Get her stopping when you shout NO! with a jirk on the long lead. Then when she will stop at a distance when you shout NO without the lead, blow the stop whistle directly after shouting, so that she associates the stop whistle with the NO command. I dare say NTTF will have some advice on this! You might want to use the stop whistle with the long lead without going through the shouting bit, but what if you don't have the whistle with you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
columbus Posted March 27, 2003 Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 Gary im no expert when it comes to training dogs but, one thing i have learnt is that if you have a problem with a dog, step back and try to see it through the dogs eyes. You may be right that the bitch is so eager to please that she is fretting that she is getting it wrong, if that is the case. Personaly i would make things a bit easier for her, give her stop signals on simple retrives where the dummy is only 20 mtrs away from her in the open, that way she would see the stop whistle as part of the retrive not as a failure to complete the retrive on her own. As i have said im no expert but that is the way i would go. It will be intresting to see what nttf has to say, the experts oppinion so to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted March 28, 2003 Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 To all; The only thing being a professional means is that you make a living at it by getting paid. Gary; The first thing I would do with this bitch is stop blind retrieves and whistle sits off lead on straight retrieves. It sounds to me that she is becoming confused and does not understand what is being asked. My training plan for the next three weeks would be as follows; Week 1 1. Bring her out on lead for 10 to 15 min of heeling, sits on whistle and recalls. At the finish of the recall, I would add a sit on whistle while she is in front of me. Lots of praise through this whole routine. Assuming she is steady to the stop whistle continue to step 2. 2. Place her in a sit stay and place 5 to 6 bumpers around her in a 12 metre circle. Walk these bumpers into position do not throw them. If at any time she breaks her sit, walk her back into place very calmly, resit her and praise. Then continue to place bumpers resitting her as needed. 3. Keeping her on lead, heel her towards the first bumper to be retrieved sitting her half way with the whistle then continue to the bumper in the heel position. Once she has picked up the bumper, have her sit on the whistle then continue to heel back to the starting position carrying the bumper. Stop on the whistle at the halfway mark and then finish the retrieve to the starting point sitting again on the whistle. Remember to praise her constantly, reassuring her she is doing it correctly. Repeat until all 6 bumpers have been retrieved. 4. Finish with some play time; 5 to 6 play retrieves no whistle sits or stays required. Week 2 1. Remains the same. 2. Remains the same. 3. Assuming this exercise has progressed smoothly for the past week, I would repeat with the following changes; 1. Work off lead. 2. When she has picked the bumper up and sat have her stay while you walk back to the starting point. When you call her, stop her on the whistle at the midway point. If she does not stop, calmly return her to the mid point, sit her with the whistle, return to the starting point and finish the recall. Remember to keep your cool no matter how frustrated you become. Your body language and attitude will travel directly to the dog affecting her performance. NO YELLING!!!!! 4. Remains the same. Week 3 1. Progress to retriever baseball. If you are not familiar with this exercise, let me know and I will explain it in more detail. Basically; you are home plate, the dog is on the pitcher's mound, there are bumpers placed (not thrown) on first, second and third bases. From these positions, you can send your dog R, L, or back. You can also put a sit whistle in on the cast. If she ignores the whistle, walk out and take her back to the point she was at when the whistle was blown. Sit her with the whistle and praise her when she sits. Walk back to home plate and continue the cast or retrieve. I'm sure you get the picture. Remember to Praise Praise Praise. You are building her self confidence. Once this exercise has been mastered, start her on short retrieves lengthening out as the exercises are completed. !!!! Keep it simple, short and fun !!!!!! No trainer has all the answers and if they say they do they are not worth the lead they are holding. Every training program must be molded to each individual dog. If at any point the dog becomes confused, back up a step and repeat what she has already learned for one or two lessons. Hope this helps. If you have any questions, post me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.I. countrysports U.K. GARY Posted March 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 Thanks for all the advice... I will start with the training program given by NTTF today, it sounds great, I have already learned a new approach to what is one of the harder aspects of gun dog training... I will keep you all informed STEP BY STEP on how the bitch is progressing through the program... Once again, thanks for the advice, I look forward to starting this evening... All the very best... GARY... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted April 4, 2003 Report Share Posted April 4, 2003 Gary; How did week #1 go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.I. countrysports U.K. GARY Posted April 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2003 WEEK 1 WENT FINE. IN FACT NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER... THE YOUNG BITCH SEEMS FINE WITH THE TRAINING PROGRAMME SO FAR... I MUST ADMIT I WAS A BIT CONCERNED ASKING THE DOG TO PICK UP THE DUMMY WHILE ON THE LEAD, BUT SHE WAS OK WITH IT... PROGRESSING TO STAGE 2 THIS EVENING... I CAN SEE THE METHOD BEHIND THE PROGRAMME THAT YOU GAVE ME, AND I DO THINK THAT IT WILL WORK VERY WELL... PROGRESS REPORT... DOG PERFORMED ALL THE TASKS ASKED OF HER WELL, WITH ENTHUSIASM. Thanks so much... Will keep you all updated... All the very best... GARY... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted April 13, 2003 Report Share Posted April 13, 2003 Gary: How has week two progressed, any problems? Are you moving onto week three ? Remember they don't always learn by a set number of days, some times it takes longer than a week if there is any confusion on the dogs part. Gary I am sure you know this its more a reminder for others who may be following this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 Gary: How has the training been going? Is your bitch coming around to the stop whistle? Hope all is well . NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.I. countrysports U.K. GARY Posted May 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 It is now 5 weeks since I started the training programme with my young labrador (JUBA) which was kindly posted by NTTF... I stuck rigidly to the programme accepting from the outset that NTTF is a full time professional and has no doubt encountered loads of problems with young dogs in the past... I had elements of doubt regarding some parts of his given training regime, in fact some things that I would have never previously dreamed of doing... ASKING THE DOG TO PICK UP A DUMMY WHILE SHE WAS ON THE LEAD. SITTING THE DOG UP WHEN RETURNING WITH A DUMMY. As I said before I stuck with it... Early on It became clear to me that the programme was a gradual build up, starting with extremely easy exercises, getting progressively harder. The young dog responded well right from the start. I resisted the temptation to skip some of the lessons and stuck with the stages for at least 1 week before moving on to the next stage... I made each training session short and lots of fun, as some parts could have easily bored the dog and the whole thing would have become a chore and not very enjoyable for her... To say she passed with flying colours would be an understatement. She is now extremely responsive to the whistle and sits very sharply. She looks straight back at me for the next command. I can hold her tight on the fall untill the dummy is picked by her... We both learned a great deal and I am indebted to NTTF for his assistance. The dog has now progressed to long launched retrieves 3 - 4 at a time (retriever baseball style) The dog marks well and sits patiently untill sent for whatever dummy I ask her to pick first. She will stop instantly when asked, and can be directed to another dummy with ease. The last few training sessions she has not put a single foot wrong and she goes from strength to strength... This has me walking home (Juba tight at my heel) with a big beaming smile on my face, feeling well chuffed with myself. I am sure the dog feels the same. As yet I have not given her any blinds. I would appreciate your thoughts on this subject NTTF, before I move her forward. I have no doubt that she is going to turn out a model of what a labrador should be. I have trained many dogs to a high standard in the past, only this time I will have one that is absolutely spot on as far as stop whistle and further direction is concerned... Thanks for your advice NTTF it was spot on... AND THEY SAY YOU CAN'T TEACH AN OLD DOG NEW TRICKS!!!!! THIS IS ONE OLD DOG THAT LEARNED MANY.... I look forward to your reply... All the very best... GARY... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzer Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 Went and looked at my new lab pup yesterday...young fella is looking well ....two more weeks and he will be able to come home with me So I will be asking ya for advice as well NTTF All the best Buzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 Gary; Just read your post, I am ecstatic that Juba is doing so well. As to moving her into blinds, I would run a week of long retreives with fresh dead birds first. Start the sessions simple with a single bird at about 30 yards. If Juba gets three of four of these correct, move on to doubles. If she completes four to six of these correct, move on to triples. Over the course of the week lengthen her out to 80 yds. These birds should land in the open where she can see them. Use this exercise to test your whistle response on the sit. If she has a problem on the sit whistle, go back and repeat weeks two and three of our original training program using birds. If at the end of the week she has not had any problems, move her on to a "sight blind". A "sight blind" consists of the following; sit Juba beside you, at the sound of a gun have a bird thrown into fairly heavy cover (where the bird can not be seen laying on the ground, but where Juba can see you for handling). It is best if the bird lands behind some small shrub bushes or small rise. Remember to start this exercise at about 40 yrds and to lengthen out over the course of several days. When you send Juba, use the stop whistle at about the half way mark. When she sits and looks at you, send her off course by several feet. Stop her at the 3/4 mark, when she sits and looks at you send her back to the mark. When Juba returns to you with the bird, have her sit beside you, take the bird from her and then praise her heavily. This test/exercise not only allows you to evaluate the willingness to handle and her trust in you to handle her to the mark but allows Juba to use her nose in the final search for the bird. If Juba can complete this test four or six times over two to three days, I would be comfortable moving her on to true blinds. I am suggesting you use birds for this stage of the training as you will be getting her used to them in a controlled situation, where she can acquire the scent and feel of the feathers. The scent will also play an important role as she starts to move on to blinds. Remember when you start true blinds to keep them short and fairly simple in the beginning. I had a young male Lab under my training by the name of Ben who at seven months understood the handling games so well that when he was having trouble with the mark, he would take it upon himself to sit down facing me and wait for direction. He not only did this with bumpers and training exercises but carried it over into the field if he had a difficult mark on a downed bird. He also handled to the whistle flawlessly. This dog showed complete trust in my ability to handle him to a mark and confidance enough in himself to find any and all birds that hit the ground. NTTF P.S. Let me know if there are any problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.I. countrysports U.K. GARY Posted May 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 Thanks NTTF, looks like a great program.... Will start this evening and report back with progress.... all the very best Gary... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 Gary: Think you'll be able to find any fresh killed birds? Cheers mate......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernyha Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 Gary: Think you'll be able to find any fresh killed birds? NTTF i,m sure Deako would let him have a few if he is stuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted May 22, 2003 Report Share Posted May 22, 2003 Gary: How is Juba doing? Are there any Problems? How far have you gotten with her and the birds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.I. countrysports U.K. GARY Posted June 8, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Four weeks have now gone by since I started on the (further advice, blind retrieves) given to me by NTTF (please see earlier post's page 1) Juba is now at the stage where you would consider she is a finished dog... Basicly, she has passed her test, and now needs experience in the field to make her a fully rounded gundog... NTTF's adivce has been a great help and inspiration to me, I have learned new approaches to gun dog training, things that I have never done before... I would consider NTTF's advice a modern approach having never read nor seen other trainers using some of the tricks that he has willingly passed on to us all... I would encourage NTTF to put his obvious expertise down in writing and publish a book, I for one would be the first to put my name down for a copy... Thank you so much NTTF for all of your expert help... By the way, Juba was the result of a mating of my older bitch Molly and a good local stud dog. The litter has been such a success that I have mated Molly again to the same dog. This type of Labrador that I breed are a joy to own. They have superb temperaments and are easy to train being sensible and placid, and to top it all off they are fantastic lookers as well. The pups will be born mid July and will be available to view at the end of August. Should interested parties like to come and have a look at the litter with a view to buying a pup please PM me or contact me on 07980 071192.... Once again thank you very much NTTF for your help... all the very best... GARY... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted June 8, 2003 Report Share Posted June 8, 2003 Gary: Thank you for the kind words...but it was your dedication to Jubas education that has brought all of this together. I can give you the steps, and that is all training really is, a number of steps that when completed you have a trained dog, but unless you put the time and commitment to them this will not happen. So Gary thanks for having the faith in me to follow the program through and the dedication to Juba to get out there to do the training. I hope you have years of enjoyment to come. NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer69 Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 if you go back to basics, but use hand signals as well as the wistle so she is looking at you for commands aswell as working to the wistle. this should help, as this is what i did with my lab as she used to charge straight passed me when i called now i just raise my hand sharply she stops (usually sits aswell!) hope this is as successfull as it was with my dog. good luck!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decoyboy Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 i am taking a four year old rescue springer back to basics . this is one thing the dog struggles with . i have started gundog training courses with him and last week the instructor had us walking on the lead and stopping at one whistle . very trying i know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigoak Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) I just read this. It goes to show how adherence to good advice pays dividends. Well done to Gary,Juba and NTTF. I just have one question, is a stop whistle just a **** whistle? I just get my dog to sit at distance with the single blast. Edited April 15, 2015 by bigoak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rimfire4969 Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 Some great advise, but. That must be a record topic revival 2003. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgguinness Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Great topic. I have just been reading this with great interest. I have just acquired my first dog, an ESS. Gwyn is just over 2 years old. A friend bought her as a pup, paid good money for her as she has good lines (from what I am told, have a 5th gen FT champion cert). She has settled in nicely and has had some basic training. So far she will return on the whistle (5 pips), give a ball back no probs, stay when told (only when im by her side to give the instruction, then I can walk off, and she will return to me when instructed). This week I have been practicing short throws and getting her to stay until told to move. Sorry for the basic description but as far as terminology goes I am unsure. Getting her to walk to heal is tricky at the mo, both on and off the lead. On the lead she pulls on quite a bit. Off the lead she stays 10-15 yards out zig zagging. Any tips on how to resolve this? Kind regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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