Met Police FET Dialogue on FAC Variations

[Redgum]

We are only hearing one side of this story Raja,you have had your DSC1 since August and had deer put on your ticket. How many deer have you shot on your own since then, could it be your Firearm dept think your trying to climb the calibre charts alittle to quickly and maybe are just trying to keep you in check, after all, they havent refused you have they. And after all you have a legal calibre for any deer you will need to shoot on this island,maybe they want to make sure you know how to shoot a boar, isnt a boar classed a dangerous species.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Redgum

[Mungler]

The problem is just how many deer can you shoot when there are quite so many restrictions on where you can shoot, what with and who needs to be with you.

 

It's not like he's ever really had the chance to jump in his car, pick up a rifle and go shooting

 

He's got permissions, into the sport, sensible, white, educated and not a nutter; I don't see what the problem is with the FEO.

[Redgum]

The problem is just how many deer can you shoot when there are quite so many restrictions on where you can shoot, what with and who needs to be with you.

 

It's not like he's ever really had the chance to jump in his car, pick up a rifle and go shooting

 

He's got permissions, into the sport, sensible, white, educated and not a nutter; I don't see what the problem is with the FEO.

 

The chap can go and shoot any deer legally in the UK with his 243, I think the issue here is the big hairy pigs. A wild boar is a differant ball game all together, and a differant knowledge is needed. Just to wander out onto a farm and start shooting at boar with a 308 could be inhumane for Mr pig, dangerous for Mr Raja and possibly the general public. What is so wrong with getting the experience of someone who has done it before, apart from pride and wanting to be the big white hunter.

[Mungler]

Then we are arguing the material difference between a .243 and a .308 round.

 

I don't think there's that much in it to argue about - if he went Tonto or was careless with a .308 it's not going to be that much worse than with a .243, so why the big hoo ha with the FEO?

[Redgum]

Then we are arguing the material difference between a .243 and a .308 round.

 

I don't think there's that much in it to argue about - if he went Tonto or was careless with a .308 it's not going to be that much worse than with a .243, so why the big hoo ha with the FEO?

Not really Mungler, if you read my last post again, 243 and 308 same case differant dia bullet but you won't get wild boar on your license if you only have 243. Most FA depts will request 308 or bigger, so why don't they let you shoot pigs with 243 if they are the same,in their eyes they are not, once over 243 they get a bit nervous.

[Mungler]

Indeed, but is that just not too much nervousness?

 

I'm not sure the FEO is looking at this from the "quarry" perspective. It's all about what the FEO considers "too big". On this aspect I don't see what Raja could do wrong or badly with a .308 that wouldn't be just as bad as with a .243.

 

It would be interesting to see what their view would be on a .270.

 

You can shoot boar with a .270, it's a gnat's chuff off a .243 and less than a .308.

 

I bet they would say yes and condition it lightly just like his .243.

 

So then, why?

 

Raja, be a love and go back to them and say you want to split the difference with .270 and I bet a tenner they go for it because it's not in the magic .3 range.

[Raja Clavata]

Mr Logic,

Thanks for the post. Whilst I agree with your sentiment and on the basis of principle yes this should be challenged. But with all due respect it's far easier for someone to suggest another perform an act of aultruism than to do so himself. I hope you know what I mean by that - I'd much prefer that the shooting organisations tackle this kind of thing through a body of evidence rather than getting individuals sticking their neck out and most likely getting nowhere. I aspire to have an open ticket one day, perhaps on renewal, particularly as it will mean I'm free of this type of goings on in the future. I can't see how pushing this matter much further will aid that objective.

 

At the end of the day part of the reason I go shooting, or participate in any other hobby for that matter, is to escape the stress and strain of normal every day life. The last thing I really want to do is cause myself more grief.

 

Redgum,

I tried to put a balanced story forward through the background blurb at the start of my original post. I don't really see what how many deer I've shot since obtaining the DSC1 has to do with anything here, but anyway, I've only shot two muntjac on my own. I've also done a couple accompanied stalks with agents. Additionally I've had safe, legal shots presented with fallow whilst either on my own or with less experienced shooters but having not had the larder / freezer space to deal with the carcass these were left be. It might just be me but I get a special sense of satisfaction when I turn away from a shot where I could taken the shot but didn't.

 

Anyway, just like you have suggested they may well be trying to temper my progression through the calibres but I'd have a great more respect for them and hold them in much higher esteem if, if that were the case, they just came straight out and stated that! Additionally they may have a similar opinion to you in, if I am recalling correctly, that an assessment only DSC1 is less worthy than a full four day course based one.

 

Mung,

Who you calling "White" bwana?

[Raja Clavata]

I had to pass on some red stag stalking as the agent wanted something bigger than .243 and only had one bigger cal estate rifle available between two of us. The FEO clearly states in his letter that the shooting of both deer and boar is exacting so he's not making any differentiation on the basis of species therefore you are left to conclude it's about the calibre (as Mungler has suggested).

 

I quote an experienced pig shooter and guide who stated over email conversation "With pigs it's more about where you put the bullet rather than the size of the bullet". Once you have been shown the heart / lung area (lower than deer) you are pretty much set to go. Over dinner he also told me that the same is true of head shots and that pigs are head-shot elsewhere in the world using .22 CF calibres. DISCLAIMER: I'm not advocating that here and of course all the above refers to static boar shooting (probably from a high chair) rather than driven boar.

 

I made it clear in the variation letter to the FEO for the .308 that it would be used for Red and Sika stags and boar. In the case of boar it was also clearly stated that the arrangements for this would be paid for accompanied days here in the UK or holidays abroad. So there is no chance of me turning up alone at a farm for a bit of pig bashing and I'm certainly not the "big white hunter" type.

 

One of my primary concerns is associated with the ambiguity of what "accompanied" means in practice - heck, one agent I met suggested "on the end of the mobile by text message"! This troubles me as it leaves me potentially exposed to inadvertently falling foul of the conditions through interpretation (albeit low risk in all probability / reality). I know exactly what every other condition on my FAC means unambiguously.

[Redgum]

Raja, I do remember conversing with you about the DSC1 but if I recall my gripe was more over the passing on the answers rather than book bashing the research. I do believe in the DSC1 system, some knowledge is better than none, I did the assessment only and when you send in your cert to the firearms dept they don't know if you have done the full 4 days or not.

We would all respect the police if they handled things differantly in many respects of the law but I'm afraid, apart from a few good officers this isnt the case.

I live in an area that is experiencing expanding boar numbers and its only a matter of time before either I get a permission with some on or the forest Rangers to chase em on to one of my existing permissions. I can't apply for a larger calibre as I do not have good reason as yet.In advance I have done a lot of study on the subject and have been out with a very experience stalker who apart from many very large boar has experience of much more dangerous beasts on other shores. If you study a boars skull you will see why a head shot is not very humane, the actual target area is very small compared to the size of the head.As for bullet size being less important than shot placement a boars side armour thickens with age, a big boar of 6/7 years old will have well protected flanks. It needs a heavy weight retaining bullet to smash through this to hit the vitals. You may have seen articles on you tube of hogs being shot in the states with hmrs but they are not big hogs and its not very humane, they just keep shooting till the poor things dead. If I get a call in the morning asking me to control some pigs the first thing I will do is call me stalking mate, then at least I can retain my shooting while hopefully the Glos FA dept give me a variation for the correct calibre rifle, if they say I need a mentor (like to apply for 416 ) then hes already in place.

[Alycidon]

Mike Eversleigh at BASC is the guy for this, top bloke.

 

A

[Bazooka Joe]

please, for the good of everyone else in the Met region, do not take this particularly unsavoury item up your ****. The more that people bend over, the more they add this pointless ****. Just explain to the FEO that you are unhappy with their judgement in this case, make the sound argument above, and say that you would like to escalate this issue to their manager. You're not being nasty or unprofessional; you have a valid point and you want it heard. They're the Police - they might think they're God, but they're not. If you want someone to come along and be firm with them I don't mind one bit, for the good of all shooters!

 

 

That's the point that your shooting organization that's supposed to be representing you should be putting forward.

 

Is the issue here "good reason" which you have, & not DSC-1, or mentoring.

[Mungler]

BJ, I think he's saying that BASC have given him supportive advice and will push this forward for him, but he's at the point of not wanting to upset the FEO Dept. because they do and always will hold the whip hand and have long memories...

[Mr_Logic]

Raja, have you asked Basc to call your firearms dept? If not, ask them!

 

Your FEO is out of order. You have good reason and land, the two things he needs to grant. You have dsc1 proving you're a safe deer shot. What more does the jumped up little squirt want?

 

You are allowed to disagree with the Police and I have done so before, but you have to be nice about it, which Imho is fair enough.

[Vince Green]

Where exactly do you intend to shoot boar? Much of the best value for money boar shooting is abroad. Magic word that "abroad" it brings down all possible objections with the police with regard to choice of calibres and clearance on land, whether you are qualified etc. Have a few short breaks abroad and enjoy them. You say that you shoot to get away from it all. You only live in Essex, you can be down through the tunnel and onto the German Autobahns in no time. A good few days out, good shooting, good food, a few drinks etc.

 

Increasingly, I wonder why more people don't consider it. For the money its good value

 

Then once you have your rifle its comparatively easy to tack it on to an existing permission later in this country.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Vince Green

[David BASC]

Of course BASC will contact the FLO or FLM on members’ behalf, but as a first step we would typically suggest the member, with our assistance, take the matter up with the FLO themselves. Many issues are over come with this simple and basic approach with our help

 

If that fails, then the next step is for BASC to get further involved. Full details of how we handle all firearms issues of this type can be found here:

 

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/departments/firearms/BASC-members-services.cfm

 

 

When you fist contact us you will be assigned one of our firearms team to look after you, that’s the person you should go back to now.

 

Best wishes

 

David

[Dunkield]

I would go back to BASC, just to see what they recommend. I take your point about any association upsetting your FEO and making like more difficult for you in the future, if you speak to them first at least you can ask what their approach will be and decide if you want them to go ahead.

 

IMO if you have enough experience for deer you have enough for boar, it's not like there are 6 different types of boar and seasons to worry about

 

The only difference I can see is you may be taking them running, you wouldn't normally do that with deer.

 

Having shot in Arran with BASC you can tell your FEO they send you off in pairs with a map of your beat and away you go, there is no requirement for you to be 'experienced' in fact it is sold as an opportunity for DSC1 people who haven't shot a deer to get one, so you could even say it is aimed at inexperienced stalkers.

[al4x]

BJ, I think he's saying that BASC have given him supportive advice and will push this forward for him, but he's at the point of not wanting to upset the FEO Dept. because they do and always will hold the whip hand and have long memories...

 

 

BJ's a BASC anti so not coming at it from a sensible perspective

 

I talked to a few people when I got my "when accompanied" condition and one had spoken to the BASC on it at that point and it was pretty unenforceable at that point as for instance I usually go shooting accompanied by my dog for instance. Unfortunately from one perspective you've clarified the point with them and now have what they expect on paper, as for Boar abroad might have been a better choice of calibres I believe.

Sadly these days shout as much as we like but they have to be accountable for licensing decisions and that is better for all of us. From their perspective you haven't got much experience with rifles in the field and got a .243 and now want to go larger so they are creating a paper trail to cover their backsides. You only have to look at that character in cumbria to realise that every decision came out after that and had to be backed up. In your case were you to have an accident the first question would be why was someone with a FAC 18 months given a 308. If they can then say well he did the DSC then was accompanied till an experienced person stated he was safe then there is a trail. What we have to realise is they have to be very careful how they word things or they get it challenged and shooting organisations on their backs which is fine but in the long run firearms in private hands are going to have to be pretty accountable to the public when things go wrong and that is better for all of us as it makes banning anything much harder.

[Mr_Logic]

But the point, surely, is the DSC1 INCLUDES tutoring on safe rifle handling and how to shoot safely. If it's not enough then the course is not fit for purpose ANYWAY! It's like saying you've passed your driving test but we have to have an instructor sit with you for the first 1000 miles anyway, as you might not be safe yet. If you pass the test, you're safe. If you're not happy, then fix the bloody test!

[Redgum]

BJ's a BASC anti so not coming at it from a sensible perspective

 

I talked to a few people when I got my "when accompanied" condition and one had spoken to the BASC on it at that point and it was pretty unenforceable at that point as for instance I usually go shooting accompanied by my dog for instance. Unfortunately from one perspective you've clarified the point with them and now have what they expect on paper, as for Boar abroad might have been a better choice of calibres I believe.

Sadly these days shout as much as we like but they have to be accountable for licensing decisions and that is better for all of us. From their perspective you haven't got much experience with rifles in the field and got a .243 and now want to go larger so they are creating a paper trail to cover their backsides. You only have to look at that character in cumbria to realise that every decision came out after that and had to be backed up. In your case were you to have an accident the first question would be why was someone with a FAC 18 months given a 308. If they can then say well he did the DSC then was accompanied till an experienced person stated he was safe then there is a trail. What we have to realise is they have to be very careful how they word things or they get it challenged and shooting organisations on their backs which is fine but in the long run firearms in private hands are going to have to be pretty accountable to the public when things go wrong and that is better for all of us as it makes banning anything much harder.

I think thats a pretty good analysis of the situation. Will BASC get involved, I would be very surprised if they did.What will they do, tell the firearms dept to lift the mentoring as they think Mr Rajay is safe as he's shot 2 munties and has his DSC1.BASC do an extremely good job to protect our shooting and gun laws,they have supported members through the courts were there has been an obvious misjustice ( ie the case of a pigeon decoyer shooting within 50 feet of a road recently). Theres no misjustice or human rights issue here, the FA dept are just airing on the side of caution, 6 accompanied stalks isnt the end of the world. If you have access to pig shooting you won't be short of a few fellows to stand at your shoulder. Now if the variation had been denied full stop that may possibly be another matter.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Redgum

[Mr_Logic]

I think they should get involved ASAP, I do think it's that important. The key point here is that the police have a duty of care to the public, which is ticked with a DSC1. I know it's important for everyone to cover their *****, but the guy already has a .243 for unaccompanied field use. If he had neither, that might be different, but he has one already. To deny the .308 is utterly daft - it's not like he's asking for a .50BMG (although, might as well, as then he can surely get whatever he likes as they're all smaller than that - see, it's daft!)

[Dunkield]

Could have saved a lot aggro buying 6.5 in the first place instead of a pea shooter

[Bazooka Joe]

BJ's a BASC anti so not coming at it from a sensible perspective

 

 

HA HA, so be it then...as soon as you question the mighty BASC, you've either a "hidden agenda", or your "anti BASC"

 

Looks like it's only me & Mr_Logic that's only seeing this side of the debate, which he sums up well in his posts.

 

 

Of course BASC will contact the FLO or FLM on members’ behalf, but as a first step we would typically suggest the member, with our assistance, take the matter up with the FLO themselves.

 

 

OK David, this has now gone to a different level then, BASC need to support Raja now, & speak direct to the FLM on his behalf.

 

 

I can see from his posts that he is bothered about rocking the boat, but until you grow a pair of ***** & stand up for yourself, this sort of garbage is going to be an ongoing issue, apart from fast becoming compulsory.

[Raja Clavata]

What they've actually done is pretty much exactly what they originally said they were going to do with the .243 variation difference being they discussed that with me before it was issued whereby I stated my objections and it was never raised again.

 

Vince - I've had a trip out for boar in the West country so far and have been making enquiries about boar in France, Germany and Croatia (I have work colleagues in all three countries and the boundary of the French office has an electric fence designed to keep the boar out of the grounds).

 

Alex - take your point but I think the accompanied condition is still far from clarified (and I think I'd have struggled to get a brief to defend me in the event of a problem on the basis of being accompanied by my GSP). Now I know you think GWP's are superior but sure not that superior

 

I will give BASC a call and talk it through with them.

 

What's not clear to me is whether or not an accompanied stalk with the .243 counts, suspect it does but ain't going to ask and when the proof of stalking and request goes in they will not be calibre specific.

 

I'm coming round to thinking they had intended to impose the accompaniment condition on the .243 post DSC1, for deer only, as was originally discussed but for some reason it was over-looked - possibly because of the lack of continuity of FEO on every occasion. So I'm thinking by then putting the .308 variation in it gave them the opportunity to address that in part.

 

I'll do all the necessary accompanied stalks and some more soon enough and if not resolved prior to that will put the request in to have the condition lifted. Alternatively of course I could do nothing, punch a bit of paper every now and then (enough to show sufficient purchase of rounds on my FAC) and put in for an open cert upon renewal because by then I'd by some defintions be an "experienced shooter".

 

Dunkield - the agent I used for UK boar would not accept a 6.5x55 as man enough (I did ask)

[njc110381]

You do realise that you couldn't shoot Boar in France with a .308?! Perhaps your force have saved you and them a lot of bother that you would have had if you'd have got the .308 then realised you're not allowed to take it to France? If your plans have been mentioned then you have also given them a good insight into the fact that you haven't done your homework on this one which really doesn't help your cause?

 

I don't mean to sound sceptical or rude - rather just put a view across from their side. You've not studied your arguement carefully enough and if you have put forward this info then it makes you look slightly less than knowledgable or at best amateur - Not ideal!

 

I've worked with my department very carefully since day one. Every email or letter I send is checked, then checked again, edited then checked again, perhaps two or three times. I've been known to spend all day over one letter - checking and changing bits, reading up on the web and making sure everything is 100% accurate and put forward firmly with references to various firearms acts! Sad? Probably?! But I've had my FAC for three years and have next to no conditions on it. No land restrictions, no quarry restrictions, and calibres... read my signature!

 

EDIT... If only I checked my posts at least once. This one looked like it was written by the local dyslexics club!

Edited January 6, 2011 by njc110381

[markbivvy]

You do realise that you couldn't shoot Boar in France with a .308?

top man N.

wondered when this would be picked up on.