mudpatten Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 David, Thank you for reserving me a chair. Incidentally,I`m quite happy to accept THE Chair,as in chairmanship, of the CA`s Wildfowling Liaison Committee, or whatever it ends up being called. With appropriate expenses I`m happy to set up the committee and then, of course, offer myself for election to that post by the membership once it is established. As you can appreciate,and I`m sure the CA has given this the appropriate thought,all this democratic committee and membership election stuff comes at a price. I estimate I can set up and run an effective and representative committee for a running cost of about £15,000 per annum. Consisting mainly of tightly controlled travel and accommodation costs for about 10 committee members from all around the coast. Whether or not I end up doing it, that is the sort of figure one will be looking at. How much have you provisionally set aside to run it? If the wildfowling community with all its special problems ends up being "represented" by the CA in any form other than this, then it will be a sham. Something that I`m sure you are anxious to avoid. There are one or two issues that will need to be addressed from the outset. By the very nature of the history of the sport all of the English and Welsh committee members will already be members of BASC. This is unavoidable due to various tie ins with the JTG and Crown Estates. How does it sit with senior management of the CA to know that an expensive and vociferous committee is composed entirely of members of BASC? How can the CA make this work? One of the many assets I would bring to this committee are a lifetimes experience of dealing with statutory bodies such as NE etc,and powerful charities such as the RSPB. From the outset I can tell you that the CA`s main battle tactic of running about and crashing into things whilst simultaneously banging the table and shouting will not work with these bodies. From the outset any wildfowling representatives will be seeking to implement a strategy of positive and intelligent cooperation, much as BASC does, rather than confrontation, something which is in direct opposition to CA senior managements current, and largely ineffective, favoured strategy of trying to head butt the other side. When do I start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I do not share Scullys rather pessimistic views on the future of shooting and the impact that the shooting organisations can and will have on the political scene that surrounds our sports, and I suspect David T feels the same. As I posted above the guardianship of shooting is, very broadly, split among the 5 main shooting organisations. There are different pressures on different areas of shooting as we are all aware, but there are also common threads such as young people and their access to firearms, licensing and storage for example. This is why I feel we need a co-ordinated approach to lobbying with the different specialists taking the lead and supported, as and when required, by the others. I think David T is quite right not to try and Carbon Copy one or more of the shooting organisations, that’s the last thing shooting needs, more diversification. David T asked for thoughts and comments and he has them, and like me in the past, has found out that if you ask for views and opinions you will jolly well get them, warts and all. If you ask for someone’s opinion you are going to get it, you may not like it – but you asked… ATB David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 frankly David you only want to co ordinate the approach as you feel you will be the only organisation to lead it. as for the wildfowling issue its well stitched up by BASC so is a bit of a non starter anyway, hence it has been brought up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 How I absolutely detest this mud slinging and ridiculous my lot's better than yours attitude. I must point out from the start that I belong to the CA, BASC and the NGO. In my view they are necessary and all have a role to play. BASC are a specialist outfit representing shooting and having grown from a niche organization representing wildfowlers (WAGBI) they have, over time, responded to the need for a broader based organization representative of all things shooting and have become the voice of shooting. The CA on the other hand have always been a broad umbrella organization representing all field sports, hunting, shooting, fishing and falconry to name a few. They started life as the British Field Sports Society and a golly good job they do. Some years ago in order to appear "green and friendly" both organizations decided to change their name. One added conservation and shooting into their name the other decided to become the voice of all things rural and became the Countryside Alliance, campaigning for everything from rural Post offices to hunting and shooting, hoping that the sports they represent would be become more acceptable to the masses. Seeing how this country has become more and more urban as time has gone on this has proved to be a wise move. The CA (and BFSS as it was) has always represented shooters and has always vigorously tried to sign up shooting members. When I joined up in the 60's I was signed up at a clay ground where the BFSS had a small stand one Sunday morning promoting themselves. So the CA campaigning for shooting members is nothing new and I for one feel they have done a good job for country sports. The funny thing is though that regional recognition for the CA and BASC does vary. My home farm is down here on Exmoor and I can guarantee that every land owner knows of the CA but very few could tell you who the BASC were. Whereas I do have an interest in a farm in the Home Counties where the opposite is true. So, to conclude the ramblings of a senile old sheep farmer, join both if you can or failing that you really must join one as the future of our sport will, I assure you, depend on it. Whichever one you chose lobby them and tell them what you expect them to do to safeguard your sport because without your imput they may take the wrong direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Charlie, I agree 100% that the CA are far more widely know among some sectors of the country community not least of all due to their 'broad church' campaigning platform, this has been a great success for them, indeed as answer 2 points out a large number of their campaigns are aimed at this sector. I too agree that people should support as many organisations as they can, based on their interests Me for example: BASC – for shooting CA for hunting (I don’t hunt but support peoples freedom to do so) Angling Trust - for fishing GWCT – all round support of game shooting CPRE – lobbying for my countryside As to mud slinging, a good point well made, so to move forward, in my view, the associations should be factual and honest in their marketing approach to exiting and new members especially when it comes to the level and type of services they can deliver on, not go round trying to poach each others members, not targeting other organisations in their adverts or other marketing materials. A structured and coordinated approach is what I think shooting needs, and I can’t think of any sensible objection to this. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRTaylor Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Charlie, I agree 100% that the CA are far more widely know among some sectors of the country community not least of all due to their 'broad church' campaigning platform, this has been a great success for them, indeed as answer 2 points out a large number of their campaigns are aimed at this sector. I too agree that people should support as many organisations as they can, based on their interests Me for example: BASC – for shooting CA for hunting (I don’t hunt but support peoples freedom to do so) Angling Trust - for fishing GWCT – all round support of game shooting CPRE – lobbying for my countryside As to mud slinging, a good point well made, so to move forward, in my view, the associations should be factual and honest in their marketing approach to exiting and new members especially when it comes to the level and type of services they can deliver on, not go round trying to poach each others members, not targeting other organisations in their adverts or other marketing materials. A structured and coordinated approach is what I think shooting needs, and I can’t think of any sensible objection to this. David I take it by this that you mean, "I want to put an end to mud sliging, but before I do, here is one last handful of the brown stuff in the direction of the CA. Now come try and defend yourself without appearing to sling mud" For everyones' sanity, I'll let you have the last throw. Otherwise marketing to exiting members will be become more than just a mistype Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Well makes a change from BASC vs CPSA (anyone seen them recently?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Advantage CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 David T what on earth do you mean? Do you disagree that adverts / marketing materials produced by BASC, NGO, CA et al should be factual and honest? Do you disagree that we should be open and honest about the services we can and do deliver? Do you disagree we should not run campaigns that aim to poach each others members? Do you disagree that a structured approach to keeping shooting safe is the best thing to do? In what way have to slung mud at the CA in my last post? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 seeing as you look at this thread regularly David is there any truth to the rumor you are going to have a vacancy for director of operations coming up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Hardly Advantage but I suppose we all see things from a different perspective. I do hope no one will mind me pointing out, especially to Charlie T and A14x,that this thread was started by DRTaylor who genuinely wants to find out how best the CA might serve shooting. Attempting to derail the thread with unhelpful comments and deliberately raising a smokescreen allowing DRTaylor to avoid answering the questions that his initial query raised looks increasingly like the coordinated tactics of someone desperately trying to extracate himself from a position that they wished they had never got themselves into in the first place. So,Charlie and A14x,could you please wait until Dave Taylor has dealt with the points I have raised. Your interjections are hindering the advancement of the CA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 you know as well as I do Mudpattern that to belong to most clubs wildfowl wise you have to be a BASC member and it is very much tied in, annoys the hell out of me as removes my freedom of choice membership wise but that is the way it is. Obviously your post is using that fact to try and suggest the CA can't offer shooters anything but there are a hell of a lot of shooters who don't go wildfowling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I have no desire Al4x to get sidetracked David T has asked for PW members views on the Alliance and specifically what they want to se the Alliance do for shooting. As you and other know I am always open and I agree can be blunt with my posts, I call a spade a spade. Likewise others have equally strong views on the role of the Alliance, BASC, NGO and others in the world of shooting, so no one should be surprised that tough questions are asked– but lets not try to deflect the tough questions and points of fact by calling it mud slinging for goodness sake. Nor should we belittle this important discussion by the use of tennis parlance. If someone asks for my views and I give them I don’t expect to be slapped down for simply doing what has been asked. If Al4x you want to know about any employment posts coming up at BASC please look on the appropriate bit of the BASC web site. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 ah well they're asking on the SD when you have time, think they are just curious about the mis conduct bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 This has nothing to do with the importnat questions David T has asked has it, so stop blocking up this thread! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 A14X, You have succinctly stated what I was trying to avoid putting so bluntly and even though you are not Savid T whom I am endeavouring to assist,I must say that you have let the cat out of the CA bag. You are absolutely correct when you say that there are a hell of a lot of shooters who don`t go wildfowling. Wildfowlers are in fact a minority. A bit like pigeon shooters. Frankly, I can see no way in which the CA can represent wildfowling for the reasons I have already mentioned, although I`m sure that David T is working on a solutiona as we speak. One that I look forward to reading about. Regretably A14x you seem ready to throw a minority branch of shooting to the wolves, a view that I sincerely hope is not shared by the other CA heierarchy. In an earlier thread I predicted that the whole issue of the CA pursuing the desire to "represent" shooting would lead to a great schizm in the sport, one you appear happy to support,whereby some of the difficult issues such as fowling would be dumped by the wayside. If your attitude typifies that of the rest of the CA then this whole campaign contains within it the seeds for the destruction of shooting itself. Another well thought out campaig from the CA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 A14X, You have succinctly stated what I was trying to avoid putting so bluntly and even though you are not Savid T whom I am endeavouring to assist,I must say that you have let the cat out of the CA bag. You are absolutely correct when you say that there are a hell of a lot of shooters who don`t go wildfowling. Wildfowlers are in fact a minority. A bit like pigeon shooters. Frankly, I can see no way in which the CA can represent wildfowling for the reasons I have already mentioned, although I`m sure that David T is working on a solutiona as we speak. One that I look forward to reading about. Regretably A14x you seem ready to throw a minority branch of shooting to the wolves, a view that I sincerely hope is not shared by the other CA heierarchy. throwing to the wolves or did you only try and draw them into the argument because there is nothing they can offer to wildfowlers as the BASC have it well stitched up. To intimate it was being thrown to the wolves would be suggesting the BASC aren't doing such a good job that no one else is needed. The point about lots of other shooters is purely suggesting that there are lots who won't need any help with wildfowling or benefit from their subs being spent on buying wildfowling land etc personally I think they have a place and with a little effort put into developing the shooting side should be a good organisation for those who shoot and fish and indeed those who hunt as well. You mention strength in numbers and solidarity were the BASC to join them and go under their banner that would possibly make more sense than splitting all the country sports up. Then you would certainly have a powerful countryside sport organisation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Hardly Advantage but I suppose we all see things from a different perspective. I do hope no one will mind me pointing out, especially to Charlie T and A14x,that this thread was started by DRTaylor who genuinely wants to find out how best the CA might serve shooting. Attempting to derail the thread with unhelpful comments and deliberately raising a smokescreen allowing DRTaylor to avoid answering the questions that his initial query raised looks increasingly like the coordinated tactics of someone desperately trying to extracate himself from a position that they wished they had never got themselves into in the first place. So,Charlie and A14x,could you please wait until Dave Taylor has dealt with the points I have raised. Your interjections are hindering the advancement of the CA. I'm terribly sorry Mudpatten. I'm not good on forum etiquette and did not realize that it was not the done thing to join in on a topic when you were discussing duck shooting. However, I hope you don't mind me saying that if I was a duck shooter and looking for an organization to represent me I would look no further than Stanley Duncan's WAGBI. Looks a proper job to me and right up your street. Far from hindering anyones advancement my post, particularly as I am a member of both, was my way of asking for a little gentlemanly behavior by all those posting on this thread. Something that obviously went over your head. Charlie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 If you read my post above or were familiar with the history of BASC/ CA/BFSS you will know that merger is a big issue one that is far greater, with all respect, than the posts on this forum Al4x As I said above, there are those shooters who do not want their sub spent on anything but shooting, and I am willing to bet there are hunters who want none of their sub spent on shooting. For that reason alone I honestly believe the CA and BASC will always be separate organisations. The Alliance is, as it says on their web site: …the only organisation campaigning for repeal of the Hunting Act and, whilst repeal would be a great victory in itself, it would also protect all other country pursuits for a generation and open the way for policies that address the real needs of rural communities. The Manifesto promotes changes in five key areas that will make a real and lasting difference to the countryside: Housing - Promote local solutions to the lack of affordable rural housing Education - Enable all children to gain a practical understanding of the countryside Farming - Support British farmers and producers Country pursuits - Repeal the Hunting Act and champion country pursuits Services - Ensure an accessible and reliable rural transport network That is what they are all about. BASC is, as it says on their web site: BASC is a national representative body for sporting shooting. We have five strategic objectives: A strong and unified voice for shooting All party backing for shooting High standards in shooting Opportunity to go shooting Balanced comment in the media for shooting That what they are all about. Very different organisations with very different remits, funding streams and objectives. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I do not share Scullys rather pessimistic views on the future of shooting and the impact that the shooting organisations can and will have on the political scene that surrounds our sports, and I suspect David T feels the same. As I posted above the guardianship of shooting is, very broadly, split among the 5 main shooting organisations. There are different pressures on different areas of shooting as we are all aware, but there are also common threads such as young people and their access to firearms, licensing and storage for example. This is why I feel we need a co-ordinated approach to lobbying with the different specialists taking the lead and supported, as and when required, by the others. I think David T is quite right not to try and Carbon Copy one or more of the shooting organisations, that’s the last thing shooting needs, more diversification. David T asked for thoughts and comments and he has them, and like me in the past, has found out that if you ask for views and opinions you will jolly well get them, warts and all. If you ask for someone’s opinion you are going to get it, you may not like it – but you asked… ATB David I'm an optimist David,but that doesn't make me delusional!I've been shooting in one form or another for over 45 years,and have lost a damn sight more than I've gained,despite being a member of most of the shooting organisations at one time or another.You keep kidding yourself,after all,it's your livelihood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 David You really are being unfair by picking some of the issues the CA campaigns for but conveniently forgetting to mention shooting or for that matter hunting and then going on to say that your web site only mentions shooting. Well I would hope so as that is what you are, a shooting only body. You know full well that the CA manifesto you so cleverly mention was only intended to address non field sports issues so as not to confuse it with their core field sport issues. As you well know they made a conscious decision to broaden their base and encompass other rural issues in addition to their core base of hunting, shooting and fishing thus making them appear to be the voice of the countryside and not just field sports. In the same way as you did by adding conservation when you changed your name from WAGBI. For goodness sake they may represent many issues but they have been promoting shooting since long before you changed form WAGBI to BASC. How long has their game to eat campaign been running, in an effort to promote game shooting, must be 10 years. Hardly something conjured up by an organization who has suddenly decided to represent shooting. As much as I think you do a good job, in fact a wonderful job for shooting, keep this slanging match up and I will think twice about renewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCD Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 OCD - I don't want to sound like a new government blaming everything on the previous administration, but this was before my time. I do feel that response was wrong and did damage to the CA's reputation with shooting people. However, even in an absence of a ban, I think it is naive to think that all foxes can be controlled by hunts. There are many foxes, and hunts cannot cover all land at all times, therefore shooting is not just alternative but an integral part of fox population management. As for coursing and terrier work, I have volunteered for the Alliance for several years in the Eastern region. The events trailer has many large images of coursing and terrier men at work as part of the hunting campaign. Moreover, when it comes to court cases, we have helped defend several terrier men in the courts. I think it is when the national media address hunting; they tend to concentrate on fox hunting as that is what gets most people's backs up. In a similar way they also ignore other hunts such as harrier and beagle packs. I hope this answers your questions. Thank you for your reply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookiemonsterandmerlin. Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) Surley it better to be cracking on with the job in hand rather than a slanging match with the CA and its downfalls . Out of intrest is your posting and replies done in your own time or BASC employment time. Cheers OTH Edited February 17, 2011 by Over the hill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 nicely said Charlie far more eloquently put than I could mange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) OCD at least you got a reply. But then as their web site clearly shows when it comes to promoting countryside issues shooting is very much a minor concern for the CA. Edited February 17, 2011 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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