Removal of Canada geese from the pest list.

[Tim Kelly]

Tim Kelly just cast back over past posts on this subject and you will see a lot of people are shooting them in the breeding season including some who appear to delight in shooting goslings and blowing the heads off geese with high power rifles . What sort of picture does that paint to the public about sporting shooting.

 

People do stupid and often criminal things despite laws. Those swans shot with an air rifle that were in the news recently being a good example. The point about them being generally available to shoot if they are being a nuisance is surely that they are an acknowledged nuisance in many many instances, so rather than making people apply for hundreds of special licenses, which they might have to with a more sensitive species that was causing a problem, then it takes the bureaucracy out of a common problem and allows people to get on managing their own situations. Idiots with airguns, rifles or shotguns who blast away at things willy nilly aren't going to be restrained by the thought that the animal is "out of season".

 

There's way too much legislation in this country already, people are always calling for more laws as a knee jerk reaction to a very minor situation which is better served by education, peer pressure and custom, which are the things that actually make a society work.

[Dave-G]

................ blowing the heads off geese with high power rifles. What sort of picture does that paint to the public about sporting shooting?.....

 

Compared to shooting your goose for your sport because you can and want to, hitting it somewhere with some pellets to hopefully bring it crashing to earth or water then eventually getting to it before wringing it's neck? And the ones that didn't get brought down nearby - never mind hey, they're only carrying a few pellets for the rest of their miserable disabled lives.

 

If I were as concerned as you claim to be with painting a picture for the dainty public I'd go for the instantaneous death without warning from a blown off head rather than the drawn out suffering offered by your sporting shot, and what if you can't get to it? These Canada Geese threads nearly always end up showing the hypocrisy displayed by a small minority of selfish wildfowlers who seem to think they are the elite of the shooting world and Canada geese should be for them, and them alone.

 

 

I have never shot a goose and probably never will but what places wildfowlers so high in the moral spectrum when its done for sport vs it being done humanely and neccessarily? Try the economics - Why should so many farmers have to provide land and feed for verminous geese, and tolerate ruined land just so fowlers can try and shoot some geese down somewhere else for a few months every year? Maybe if the fowlers who have had land bought for them also spent hard cash on the affected farmers for the crop and damage the farmer might not feel he wants them dealt with.

[al4x]

 

 

When you consider there only 60-70,000 Canada’s in the country

 

 

ok we have a fact I assume, what were the figures last year and the one before to show the rapid decline? Is it an issue with a non native bird if you were saying the same about the ruddy duck you'd be laughed out of the park.

 

My issue is mainly that at the moment they are shot under license so the moment we go lobbying to say the OGL doesn't work we put the whole thing in Jeopardy. Personally I couldn't really give a fig about canadas and rarely get to shoot one but do know farmers who have problems with them, and obviously when the powers that be in the Bird watching world have an issue with them you do wonder why. Then you have a few wildfowlers wanting to conserve them for sport without any consideration of the damage they do to farmers incomes you do have to think what is best. The OGL says that they can be controlled where they are causing damage and in certain ways some aren't palatable to shooters but they can be more effective than shooting them. If however you think its abuse of the OGL then you would be better off suggesting a way of policing it rather than saying most shooters are breaking the law

 

Pheasants sadly are irrelevant as a released species for sport they are totally different

[pigeonstool]

Quick answer - they have big feet + big appetites + long necks -- and destroy not only farmer's crops, but the margins of ponds - where the remove the vegetation where ducks nest, and remove food from the pond bottom where the 'dabbling' ducks feed ..

 

Some years ago, a local farmer requested my help in removing a good number of them -- he had DEFRA dispensation - I found it quite different "removing" them as pests - to the usual evening flighting on the same pond for sport ....

 

The two are quite different activities, and cannot be 'compared' -

IMHO - General licence - simplifies the process - a job to be done February onto September controlled by the landowner/farmer - then part of our traditional sport till February...

 

 

but do know farmers who have problems with them, and obviously when the powers that be in the Bird watching world have an issue with them you do wonder why. Then you have a few wildfowlers wanting to conserve them for sport without any consideration of the damage they do to farmers incomes you do have to think what is best.

Edited March 16, 2011 by pigeonstool

[stubby]

 

If the birds (Whatever species) are being a pest and causing real damage then yes they should be shot. Shooting hundreds of geese when they are flightless is not on. Never has been and never will be which is why there is/was a season for them.

 

again, sporting and pest control are two very different subjects, bit contradicting your statement, as the best time for a a pest control company to carry out a cull, would be when flightless,

 

 

I have no problem with Canadas or any other species being on whatever license is deemed appropriate,but people have to get away from the illusion that PEST CONTROL has anything to do with sportsmanship.Professional pest controllers cannot afford to give pest species a 'sporting chance',regardless of whether it can fly,walk or whatever.It may be unpleasant and distasteful,but PEST CONTROL is NOT about SPORT!

thank you, could'ent have put it better myself

[CharlieT]

Stubby

 

You points are spot on.

 

What some fail to realize or do not wish to understand is that the OGL is what it says on the tin, it is there to ensure that those affected by "pests" have at their disposal the necessary license to control these pests be they be pigeons, corvids or Canada geese.

 

Those that intend to lobby for the Canada Goose to be removed from the OGL are no better than those who consider that the Wood pigeon should have a closed season. It is an I'm alright Jack attitude, my sport comes first so let them breed like stink so there are more for me to shoot. They clearly forget that these birds are on the OGL for a reason........they are a pest and cost the economy vast sums but then it's not their income being affected just the poor old farmers, so what the heck.

 

Do people not realize that NE's preferred method of control is to round them up when they are flightless so that large numbers may be culled in one easy go.

 

I for one will be disgusted if BASC back this outrageous idea.

[TJ91]

I can't see it makes any difference to most of us, and most of the public in general. If they're proving a pest they get shot, but I've never heard of anyone shooting one outside of the normal fowling season anyway. Canadas are certainly not a rarity. Cormorants should be added to the pest list too, double quick.

i shot a few last year when a farmer asked me too as they were hitting a crop hard.

if i didnt do it the farmer would of got someone else to and that would mean me in the 'useless' books.

i would be happy to see them back with the likes of greylags and pinks only to be shot through sept-feb

 

i have seen a few been 'harvested' on a local golf course recently, no respect for the birds, just go at em all guns blazing and take as many as possible

 

my idea was shoot at one from each skein, if i dropped one the rest would see and clear off then just leave a banger rope there incase they came back over the few days after, it worked well with me only having to shoot a minimal amount fo geese

[TJ91]

Stubby

 

You points are spot on.

 

What some fail to realize or do not wish to understand is that the OGL is what it says on the tin, it is there to ensure that those affected by "pests" have at their disposal the necessary license to control these pests be they be pigeons, corvids or Canada geese.

 

Those that intend to lobby for the Canada Goose to be removed from the OGL are no better than those who consider that the Wood pigeon should have a closed season. It is an I'm alright Jack attitude, my sport comes first so let them breed like stink so there are more for me to shoot. They clearly forget that these birds are on the OGL for a reason........they are a pest and cost the economy vast sums but then it's not their income being affected just the poor old farmers, so what the heck.

 

Do people not realize that NE's preferred method of control is to round them up when they are flightless so that large numbers may be culled in one easy go.

 

I for one will be disgusted if BASC back this outrageous idea.

 

the people that want to shoot loads in one sitting are the ones who shoot at them with any gun at anytime of year

the people wanting them taken off the OGL are the true fowlers who i would hope stick to bag limits and dont go waving guns at as many geese as possible

[MC]

Stubby

 

You points are spot on.

 

What some fail to realize or do not wish to understand is that the OGL is what it says on the tin, it is there to ensure that those affected by "pests" have at their disposal the necessary license to control these pests be they be pigeons, corvids or Canada geese.

Those that intend to lobby for the Canada Goose to be removed from the OGL are no better than those who consider that the Wood pigeon should have a closed season. It is an I'm alright Jack attitude, my sport comes first so let them breed like stink so there are more for me to shoot. They clearly forget that these birds are on the OGL for a reason........they are a pest and cost the economy vast sums but then it's not their income being affected just the poor old farmers, so what the heck.

 

Do people not realize that NE's preferred method of control is to round them up when they are flightless so that large numbers may be culled in one easy go.

 

I for one will be disgusted if BASC back this outrageous idea.

 

And what others fail to realise is the OGL is not a reason for every Tom, **** or Harry to go and blaze away to their hearts content whenever they feel like it.

 

As I have said before if a bird or whatever species is being a pest or doing damage then it should be controlled. Not shot just because you can.

 

This "PEST CONTROL" banner is bull ****, the OGL is used by most to kill things. That is what BASC have seen and that is why they SHOULD campaign to get Canada Beese removed from the OGL.

[stubby]

 

This "PEST CONTROL" banner is bull ****, the OGL is used by most to kill things.

 

apart from quailified pest controllers who have jobs to do,

[al4x]

so have we come up with any figures yet to show they are in a massive decline or is it just posturing or imagining what people get up to.

 

From what I've seen on PW those that talk most about blazing away usually do the least of it

 

Actually I've found the WWT have charted numbers nice graph but I must be reading it wrongly as it doesn't seem to indicate a massive decline

 

 

Annual indices and smoothed trend for Canada Goose in Great Britain 1965/66 to 2008/09 (WeBS data; Calbrade et al 2010).

Edited March 16, 2011 by al4x

[MC]

apart from quailified pest controllers who have jobs to do,

 

And I am sure you do it well, which is why IF something is being a pest then it can be controlled. I bet you don't go out and shoot every Canada Goose you see just because it may be a pest?

 

And if you had to apply for a licence it would stop everyone blazing away and would enable you to do your job unhindered.

[MC]

so have we come up with any figures yet to show they are in a massive decline or is it just posturing or imagining what people get up to.

 

From what I've seen on PW those that talk most about blazing away usually do the least of it

 

Actually I've found the WWT have charted numbers nice graph but I must be reading it wrongly as it doesn't seem to indicate a massive decline

 

 

Annual indices and smoothed trend for Canada Goose in Great Britain 1965/66 to 2008/09 (WeBS data; Calbrade et al 2010).

 

 

As you have always said though Al4x, it depends on the area. I have seen about 10 Canada geese all season here on the marsh.

 

10 years ago I would have seen 100's on a daily basis. I would have said that was a fairly rapid decline and I am sure it has nothing to do with hundreds upon hundreds being shot at night under a lamp on several local golf courses and fishing lakes has it?

[al4x]

perhaps its wildfowlers at fault pushing them out of the areas you want to shoot them from by over shooting. If you look at the history of them wildfowlers are responsible for spreading them round the UK in an effort to increase their sport. seems the geese have wised up and moved to farmland etc where they don't get shot at as much. No where can I see any research that backs up a drastic reduction in their numbers and in fact it seems just the opposite. Whether they are being driven inland I don't know but its pretty short sighted of wildfowlers to try to stop them being shot within the OGL when they caused the problem in the first place

[MC]

P M S L

 

Yes I am sure it was wildfowlers that caused the problem in the first place. :lol:

 

I am sure you can back that up with facts that they were only ever on the coast and wildfowlers are responsible for splitting them up.

While you are on it try and find the facts that grey squirrels were only ever in one place and if they had been left alone they wouldn't be a problem either.

 

By god you can be a **** at times

Edited March 16, 2011 by MC

[al4x]

Its a suggestion put forward by the WWT which I've copied below, as for moving them by repeated shooting its not exactly impossible. But the fact remains they are not in decline so any moves to remove them from the General license by BASC et al would be totally against everything they have said so far about the need to control them. With the fact they are still growing in numbers going back on that would be quite an about turn.

 

UK Status

Introduced as an ornamental wildfowl in the 17th century, numbers of Canada Geese in Britain remained low until the 1950s when wildfowlers transported the species across the country to try and relieve local conflicts. This unknowingly created centres for a population explosion. The species is now widespread throughout England and Wales, the southern and central lowlands of Scotland, and sporadically north to Orkney. Its distribution is still localised in Northern Ireland.

[MC]

You say they are not in decline yet I have given you evidence to say that they are in my area. And I have have at least 2 large reserves where they really should thrive. One of which it would not be uncommon to drive across the resevoir and see hundreds or thousands of them. Now you could count them on one hand.

 

However as I have said before their numbers have been drastically reduced by "Pest controllers" shooting huge numbers of them just because they can.

 

I have not seen a canada goose on a field around me in years, I have seen 1000's upon 1000's of Brent Geese trampling all over crops. They are not indigenous yet they are protected.

[al4x]

Ok so based on mersea Island the whole UK should be changed as a result, surely the results of population on the whole of this Island should be taken into consideration. When the official birdie people are counting ever increasing numbers I just can't see how the melodramatic statements of huge decline come into it. I'd assume the pest controllers round you were paid to remove them because of damage caused or a threat to human health, it suggests they have impacted a local population and that is your problem. Short of making the local golf course a nature reserve for canada Geese I can't see much alternative

Edited March 16, 2011 by al4x

[CharlieT]

And what others fail to realize is the OGL is not a reason for every Tom, **** or Harry to go and blaze away to their hearts content whenever they feel like it.

 

As I have said before if a bird or whatever species is being a pest or doing damage then it should be controlled. Not shot just because you can.

 

This "PEST CONTROL" banner is bull ****, the OGL is used by most to kill things. That is what BASC have seen and that is why they SHOULD campaign to get Canada Beese removed from the OGL.

 

 

Martin

 

I do agree with your sentiments although as a farmer I tend to look at both sides of the argument.

 

As I posted on a "Canada" topic some while ago we have lakes on which 10 -20 pairs come every year to nest, they do considerable damage to the corn which surrounds the lakes but I like to see them and their young about so I put up with the damage. It's my loss and my money. However if there were 100 nesting I may take a different attitude and welcome their inclusion on OGL to enable me to act as and when.

 

I view the OGL in the same light as the farmers exemption in the deer act. If 100 hinds descend on my mowing grass out of season I can act if I so chose and shoot a few to drive them off, it is useful to have the same ability to do so with Canada's. However, like you I deplore shooting and killing something just because you can a fact which seems to happen judging by some of the posts on the various Canada topics. My fear is that this abuse will lead to the withdrawal of such exemptions for closed season shooting to the detriment of those who really need it.

 

The numerous "I've got a .22lr do you think it's OK for me to shoot Canada's on my permission/golf course" make me cringe. People shooting for sport should do just that and not circumvent the rules to come up with a way to give themselves another target. Shooting will only continue if shooters show some responsibility, restraint and a little positive PR.

 

I do know however that in some areas Canada geese have been and are a real problem in both environmental and economic ways and have driven many people to tears. I remember watching a TV program some years ago about the plight of residents in various marinas where Canada's were making their life intolerable. Their inclusion on the OGL must have been a God send and saved them much heart ache. For wildfowlers to campaign to withdraw the ability these people have to control these geese is to my mind just plain selfish and shows just how out of touch with the facts and reality these wildfowlers are.

[anser2]

DaveG what a stupid statement “the hypocrisy displayed by a small minority of selfish wildfowlers who seem to think they are the elite of the shooting world and Canada geese should be for them, and them alone “

 

By the very nature the second you shoot a canada goose you become a wildfowler. That what the word wildfowler means , someone who shoots wildfowl.

 

As for wildfowlers being an elite , well if respect for the birds you shoot as opoised to dumping them in a hole in the ground ( which is what is likely to happen to breeding geese as they are in very poor body condition ) is being elite then so be it.

 

Your quote “Why should so many farmers have to provide land and feed for verminous geese” , There is no need to kill any geese in the breeding season , other methods work just as well. And in any case I am suggesting to stop the cowboy eliment a licence should be easily available for those who apply for it in the same manner as one is available for any goose.

 

I do not know where you get the idea that “Maybe if the fowlers who have had land bought for them”. They usualy buy or rent it themselves. Noboby gives it to them.

 

As for your argument about wounding that could be said for any live shooting . I was picking up pigeons the other day that had fallen into a wood behind my hide. Mu dog came out with several rabbits , rifle shot that had crawled into the wood and died. A goose is a great prize to a wildfowler and he will go to great pains to retrieve it.

 

Al4x as you should know it takes time for count data to be published and at best it’s a year old , sometimes more. The graph you have produced is 3 years out of date . Get hold of your local bird report , the information is likely to be more up to date. Even that old data shows a flattening off of the steep increases of previous decades after the canadas were put on the non native GL. The experience of many in the Eastern counties of the UK is the same as MC . Canadas are disapearing fast.

 

As for your comments on over shooting canadas , most clubs have bag limits for geese and the sheer weight and the distances walked when wildfowling are likely to put a personel bag limit on how manay you shoot. You do not seem to know much about the birds when you suggest the are being driven inland by wildfowlers , The vast majority of canadas live inland , not on the coast. We are not trying to stop them being shot where they are a problem , but to have control on where they are being shot out of season rather than allow a slaughter.

 

As for putting the GL in jepody , canadas are in a different form of GL to say pigeons or crows. There is no need for any farmer to suffer any dammage if he allows culling in season and knows what he is doing scaring the geese out of season. Read my posts - I have never suggested any shooters are breaking the law , I am suggesting the idea of shooting birds with the high profile as geese in the public in the breeding season or shooting goslings reflect badly on all sensible shooters.

 

As for pheasants being irrelevent , you are wrong. They are in the same boat as canada geese , an introduced species which in large numbers can be a problem.

[al4x]

Ok to summise we have wildfowlers admitting the geese live inland and moaning about lack of sport at the coast. A flattening of the growth curve is surely exactly why they were put on the OGL to stop the exponential growth in numbers. Till that curve goes downwards we don't have a decline in numbers, and is this the ideal population of canadas in the country? most of the powers that be suggest it isn't

[henry d]

Just as an aside, my area, Perthshire, has seen a BIG increase in Canada geese over the past few years. Normally we see a dozen or so near us when decoying, however this has increased year on year and we now skeins of 100+

However they aren`t (ATM) a pest.

[CharlieT]

answer2

 

Whilst I have tried to see both sides of this topic your latest post is beyond the pail. This time you really have proved that you do not have a clue of what happens in the real world.

 

God help us if such a mind set is ever allowed to formulate wildlife policy. You remind me of my discussions with the LACS. Unbelievable drivel.

[MC]

Martin

 

I do agree with your sentiments although as a farmer I tend to look at both sides of the argument.

 

As I posted on a "Canada" topic some while ago we have lakes on which 10 -20 pairs come every year to nest, they do considerable damage to the corn which surrounds the lakes but I like to see them and their young about so I put up with the damage. It's my loss and my money. However if there were 100 nesting I may take a different attitude and welcome their inclusion on OGL to enable me to act as and when.

 

I view the OGL in the same light as the farmers exemption in the deer act. If 100 hinds descend on my mowing grass out of season I can act if I so chose and shoot a few to drive them off, it is useful to have the same ability to do so with Canada's. However, like you I deplore shooting and killing something just because you can a fact which seems to happen judging by some of the posts on the various Canada topics. My fear is that this abuse will lead to the withdrawal of such exemptions for closed season shooting to the detriment of those who really need it.

 

The numerous "I've got a .22lr do you think it's OK for me to shoot Canada's on my permission/golf course" make me cringe. People shooting for sport should do just that and not circumvent the rules to come up with a way to give themselves another target. Shooting will only continue if shooters show some responsibility, restraint and a little positive PR.

 

I do know however that in some areas Canada geese have been and are a real problem in both environmental and economic ways and have driven many people to tears. I remember watching a TV program some years ago about the plight of residents in various marinas where Canada's were making their life intolerable. Their inclusion on the OGL must have been a God send and saved them much heart ache. For wildfowlers to campaign to withdraw the ability these people have to control these geese is to my mind just plain selfish and shows just how out of touch with the facts and reality these wildfowlers are.

 

 

Charlie,

 

I think we are on the same wavelength, your last comment I do not agree with. After all how many game shooting associations are there? Is there a Essex joint Council of game shooting clubs? or a Kent game shootiing association? No there isn't.

 

Wildfowlers as a whole have the sport of shooting at heart through their love of wildfowling. I know I do and so do most of the people I shoot with.

 

Your example of leaving the few but controlling them if they become a pest is the correct one. Not just shooting them because at some point in their life they may set a foot on your crops.

[gsm1968]

 

By the very nature the second you shoot a canada goose you become a wildfowler. That what the word wildfowler means , someone who shoots wildfowl.

 

 

Surely you don't really believe this? A wildfowler, and a man who shot a goose are worlds apart! (just IMHO)

 

Will the whole canada argument never end?

 

Control them where they need controlling and leave them where they don't.

 

To suggest we petition BASC is *****. There are already animal welfare laws in place to make sure people don't treat them inhumanely. If you are aware of someone doing wrong and want to make an issue do it with the right people.

Edited March 16, 2011 by gsm1968