gixer1 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) From my experiance most stalkers cannot acheive even this 2" consistantly! All anyone needs to do is witness the DSC1 shooting test being taken. Many more sub MOA capable rifles out there than there are people who can shoot them and thats just a fact, despite the claims to the contrary Exactly Kent, if you know how to get close a 2" group is more than adequate at 100yards.... nothing to do with the groups my rifle shoots ackley, if you look back my posts you will see targets I've shot with touching holes. The skill is not just pulling the trigger though alex, prvi is not bad in some rifles but it depends on just that - what the rifle likes. Since when was a 2" group at 100 yards a problem for hunting? A larger group than that will get you your DSC. Gixer Edited March 31, 2011 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) From my experiance most stalkers cannot acheive even this 2" consistantly! All anyone needs to do is witness the DSC1 shooting test being taken. Many more sub MOA capable rifles out there than there are people who can shoot them and thats just a fact, despite the claims to the contrary sorry my freind but if I could only produce a group like that i would pack up,you should stalk with people who can shoot and have good accurate rifles 2 inch at 500 yards is acceptable but not at 100 Edited March 31, 2011 by Ackley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) You are not ever going to shoot 2" groups at 500 yds with a stalking rifle. The heating effect of the barrel alone is going to see to that. Even a top quality international standard match rifle wouldn't do it. Maybe just once in a while as a fluke. Only a benchrest rifle with special ammo is going to do 2" groups at 500 yds. 2" at 100 yds will put all the shots in the bull of a standard match target, thats good enough. Some of the claims of group sizes and shooting ability made on this forum are just incredible. Edited April 1, 2011 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 You are not ever going to shoot 2" groups at 500 yds with a stalking rifle. The heating effect of the barrel alone is going to see to that. Even a top quality international standard match rifle wouldn't do it. Maybe just once in a while as a fluke. Only a benchrest rifle with special ammo is going to do 2" groups at 500 yds. 2" at 100 yds will put all the shots in the bull of a standard match target, thats good enough. Some of the claims of group sizes and shooting ability made on this forum are just incredible. Vince, Anyone who stalks on a regular basis knows the above, I've had this discussion with certain posters above before and don't waste my time anymore. Ackley, You claim to be up this neck of the wood stalking on some of your posts - pm next time you're up here and I'll set up a target for you and post the results on here for you. Regards, Gixer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 You are not ever going to shoot 2" groups at 500 yds with a stalking rifle. The heating effect of the barrel alone is going to see to that. Even a top quality international standard match rifle wouldn't do it. Maybe just once in a while as a fluke. Only a benchrest rifle with special ammo is going to do 2" groups at 500 yds. 2" at 100 yds will put all the shots in the bull of a standard match target, thats good enough. Some of the claims of group sizes and shooting ability made on this forum are just incredible. dont talk silly mate,I have 2 rifles which will easy produce 2 inch and less at 500 yards,yes they are custom built rifles but both are hunting rifles,whats special ammunition ?? its off the shelf componets which anyone can buy and put together I attended a shoot at Bisley with a gun club a couple of months ago I have never shot on a range in my life,we went on the 600 yard target in the afternoon,after the first shot to make sure i was dialed in correctly every shot after that (6) was the V bull,so no fluke mate,you would obvioulsy be amazed at what a modern sporting firearm with correct reloading can do dont judge people by your own standards mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) Vince, Anyone who stalks on a regular basis knows the above, I've had this discussion with certain posters above before and don't waste my time anymore. Ackley, You claim to be up this neck of the wood stalking on some of your posts - pm next time you're up here and I'll set up a target for you and post the results on here for you. Regards, Gixer I travel all over stalking mate,is the offer for a days stalking or just to show you what a rifle is capable of you should broaden your horizons mate and take a look around a few of the other forums you will be educated by some very good shooters with some excellent results and serious long range hits and groups Edited April 1, 2011 by Ackley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) Richie, I am not going to try to tell you what ammo would be best for you or your rifle as there are plenty on here that are offering opinions and thoughts. Give me a call and when you get your new rifle and if you fancy a bit of company zeroing and trying your new rifle we could meet up. You would be welcome to try some of my Partizan or Sako ammo to see how it behaves in your rifle. I use Privi 100g SP or Sako 100g Gameheads in my .243 (Which you have seen) and seem to get on reasonably well with either of them - They are certainly good enough for me for foxing with. If your rifle is new then I would suggest that you just use some cheap Privi ammo to bed the barrel in and then try some different types and weights of ammo at a later date. Here is what I am able to get at 100 yards using Partizan 100g SP at 100 yards. To help put this into perspective the bulls on these targets are 1 inch diameter. The bottom target was shot while out zeroing with Paul (The NRO Safety Officer who you met), I suspect that the "flier" to the left (4th shot) was my poor shooting and not the rifle or ammo. The top target only has 2 shots which was to check that the scopes had not been knocked the next time I had the rifle out! All were shot off the bipod on the bonnet of my 4X4. (Before anyone says so these were shot to check "exact zero at 100 yards" - I have now adjusted the sights to shoot 1 inch high at 100 yards to allow me a "reasonable degree of accuracy" out to 200 yards) There must be some excellent marksmen on here to be talking about a 1 inch group at 500 yards - They would have to have PERFECT conditions to get near to that size of a group as the silghtest bit of wind could make quite a difference at that range! Edited April 1, 2011 by Frenchieboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 Exactly Kent, if you know how to get close a 2" group is more than adequate at 100yards.... nothing to do with the groups my rifle shoots ackley, if you look back my posts you will see targets I've shot with touching holes. The skill is not just pulling the trigger though alex, prvi is not bad in some rifles but it depends on just that - what the rifle likes. Since when was a 2" group at 100 yards a problem for hunting? A larger group than that will get you your DSC. Gixer ok so when you have a deer that runs on the first shot and stops at 300 thats when your 2" of variance becomes an issue. Presuming its prone from a bipod you are only getting 2" then its not something I'd be happy with. Ok you can hit big targets close enough but why do it? most rifles will shoot sub inch with the right ammo. Just because its ok doesn't mean its a good idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 If I had a rifle that shot 2 inch groups at 100 yards... I wouldn't take it foxing! :yp: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 If I had a rifle that shot 2 inch groups at 100 yards... I wouldn't take it foxing! :yp: I wouldn't take it out of the cabinet :yp: but then the scottish do have big deer, probably a good thing under the circumstances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 Where is it at 200 yards? 3 inch kill zone on a fox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 I travel all over stalking mate,is the offer for a days stalking or just to show you what a rifle is capable of you should broaden your horizons mate and take a look around a few of the other forums you will be educated by some very good shooters with some excellent results and serious long range hits and groups Either or ...i'll take you out for free if you can consitently do less that 2" at 500 yards... The 2" figure was given as a guide on ammunition to be used in a new rifle new to the individual using it, to start at 2" is fine, and the OP would achieve tighter groups as he got used to the rifle used. as has been said bench rest shooter are happy with 2" at 500 yards yet some people reckon this is a consistant group at 500 yards with a sporting rifle? i think it is you who needs to broaden horizons. I have been on other forums but i prefer to just go on the shots i have taken. Alex, how often have you seen a deer run on for 200-300 yards if the first shot is in the right place? honestly? I have had deer heart/lung shot run on but never 200-300 yards Gary, It's not about the rifle shooting a 2" inch group - as Kent said, it's the rifle/shooter combo that gives the group, and as has also been said 2" will get you a DSC anywhere in this country... Regards, Gixer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) Either or ...i'll take you out for free if you can consitently do less that 2" at 500 yards... The 2" figure was given as a guide on ammunition to be used in a new rifle new to the individual using it, to start at 2" is fine, and the OP would achieve tighter groups as he got used to the rifle used. as has been said bench rest shooter are happy with 2" at 500 yards yet some people reckon this is a consistant group at 500 yards with a sporting rifle? i think it is you who needs to broaden horizons. I have been on other forums but i prefer to just go on the shots i have taken. Alex, how often have you seen a deer run on for 200-300 yards if the first shot is in the right place? honestly? I have had deer heart/lung shot run on but never 200-300 yards Gary, It's not about the rifle shooting a 2" inch group - as Kent said, it's the rifle/shooter combo that gives the group, and as has also been said 2" will get you a DSC anywhere in this country... Regards, Gixer what ever mate I didnt intend on paying for anything as you gave me the invite and i dont need to travle all the way up Scotalnd to shoot a 2 inch group at 500 yards ,obvioulsy you are judging people by your own standards just because you cannot do it dosent mean others cant ,as I said educate yourself in what a modern sporting rifle can actually acheieve as to deer ruinning 200 ot 300 yards obvioulsy you aint shot Sika or reds with people whos rifle can only manage 2 inch at 100 yards what shooting 2 inch on a DSC course got anything to do with it ?? or are you saying they set the standard ?? so thats what we all have to be happy with ?? you will be telling me next no one can shoot deer at 500 yards here you go maye 2x4 shot groups fireforming at 500 yards obvioulsy the group on the target spot was adjusted for wind but I suspose your going to say now it didnt happen Edited April 1, 2011 by Ackley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 Alex, how often have you seen a deer run on for 200-300 yards if the first shot is in the right place? honestly? I have had deer heart/lung shot run on but never 200-300 yards it can happen though the more you shoot the more likely it is to happen one day, its irrelevant for me if my rifle was that bad the makers would take it back as they guarantee far better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 its funny the origional poster asked what he could expect from his howa .243? (good straight out of the box with the right ammo even better if worked and home loads used) and now we have a ******* competition complete with bragging rights attached. gixer is right if you hit your intended aim point within 2" its going down be it deer or fox,and funnily enough to pass a dsc you have to put 4 rounds WITHIN 4" at 100 yards, not 200 , 300 or travel to the moon distances, so I wonder why do they choose the 4" criteria before deciding that your "fit and proper" to have a go at live animals? when its assumed by the paper punchers that anything less than a hit on a gnats ******** @ 500 yards is to be poo poohed. some on here must spend a fortune on preparation h they are so anal. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) its funny the origional poster asked what he could expect from his howa .243? (good straight out of the box with the right ammo even better if worked and home loads used) and now we have a ******* competition complete with bragging rights attached. gixer is right if you hit your intended aim point within 2" its going down be it deer or fox,and funnily enough to pass a dsc you have to put 4 rounds WITHIN 4" at 100 yards, not 200 , 300 or travel to the moon distances, so I wonder why do they choose the 4" criteria before deciding that your "fit and proper" to have a go at live animals? when its assumed by the paper punchers that anything less than a hit on a gnats ******** @ 500 yards is to be poo poohed. some on here must spend a fortune on preparation h they are so anal. KW And there's me thinking PH was something to do with plinking in Africa an all along it was a bottom shafting enhancement preparation !! Edited April 1, 2011 by CharlieT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 its funny the origional poster asked what he could expect from his howa .243? (good straight out of the box with the right ammo even better if worked and home loads used) and now we have a ******* competition complete with bragging rights attached. gixer is right if you hit your intended aim point within 2" its going down be it deer or fox,and funnily enough to pass a dsc you have to put 4 rounds WITHIN 4" at 100 yards, not 200 , 300 or travel to the moon distances, so I wonder why do they choose the 4" criteria before deciding that your "fit and proper" to have a go at live animals? when its assumed by the paper punchers that anything less than a hit on a gnats ******** @ 500 yards is to be poo poohed. some on here must spend a fortune on preparation h they are so anal. KW far from bragging rights mate,the OP asked a question which has had many answers unfortuantley certain people are trying to tell the Op that a 2 inch group is perfectly OK,sorry it isnt as you are eventually going to take a shot past 100 yards which will mean your 2 inch group will be end up being a 4 inch group or bigger ,sorry but if you find taking to time to find the most accurate combination to shoot live animals boring or not needed maybe you should take up fishing I have seen people who cannot hit a dinner plate at 100 yards who have some how passed level 1, but level 1 isnt the issue here now is it thats a toatlly different subject,plus just beacuse someone has passed level 1 by shooting 3 hsots into a 4 inch circle dont make them a compitent shot and definatley not a compitent stalker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 The modern day equipment we use today is far more accurate than any of us whether you shoot at 500 yards or 100 yards. The aim is to have a clean humane kill at whatever range you feel comfortable at. I dont believe there is anyone on here saying you shouldnt always strive to be better. But better doesnt always mean shooting from further away! If the situation dictates that the distance is 3/500 yards then that is the distance you should practise at untill you are confident in your ability to do the job consistantly.Equaly so is the 1/200 yard ranges that I suspect the vast majority shoot at and feel confident. I would also guess that the majority of people dont have the longer distances because of the type of cover and woodland they shoot on .So once again for the vast majority 500 yard targets are outside their experience. The base line for shooting is the shots in a 4 inch circle at 100 yards.(Exactly that ! A base line!) If you cant do that ,then you practise till you can. But it doesnt mean you stop practising! You obviously continue untill you improve . The combination of which bullet for your gun will only come with time and experience.Everyone has their own idea about which is best for their own guns and no amout of advice is going to make any difference untill you yourself pick a particular bullet and set yourself a base line to start from.Get some consistency in your shooting with a decent available round before you start changing ammo and make comparisons. A good stalker is not judged on the bulls eye at 100/200/300/400/500. Its also judged on the ability of the person to get into a position to take such a shot. Because stalking is as varied as 20 yard woodland shots to 500yard open ground shots.Its not really that easy to compare skills . If a client came to me and he shot a two inch group at 100 yards. I would take him stalking ,because I know what kind of chances he will be presented with and that 2 inch group would be a killing shot if placed properly on the beast. Equaly so with a hill keeper.If a client proved his worth at longer ranges then he will be ok on the hill. The bottom line is ,Practise on paper not wild animals whether its a fox or a deer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 The modern day equipment we use today is far more accurate than any of us whether you shoot at 500 yards or 100 yards. The aim is to have a clean humane kill at whatever range you feel comfortable at. I dont believe there is anyone on here saying you shouldnt always strive to be better. But better doesnt always mean shooting from further away! If the situation dictates that the distance is 3/500 yards then that is the distance you should practise at untill you are confident in your ability to do the job consistantly.Equaly so is the 1/200 yard ranges that I suspect the vast majority shoot at and feel confident. I would also guess that the majority of people dont have the longer distances because of the type of cover and woodland they shoot on .So once again for the vast majority 500 yard targets are outside their experience. The base line for shooting is the shots in a 4 inch circle at 100 yards.(Exactly that ! A base line!) If you cant do that ,then you practise till you can. But it doesnt mean you stop practising! You obviously continue untill you improve . The combination of which bullet for your gun will only come with time and experience.Everyone has their own idea about which is best for their own guns and no amout of advice is going to make any difference untill you yourself pick a particular bullet and set yourself a base line to start from.Get some consistency in your shooting with a decent available round before you start changing ammo and make comparisons. A good stalker is not judged on the bulls eye at 100/200/300/400/500. Its also judged on the ability of the person to get into a position to take such a shot. Because stalking is as varied as 20 yard woodland shots to 500yard open ground shots.Its not really that easy to compare skills . If a client came to me and he shot a two inch group at 100 yards. I would take him stalking ,because I know what kind of chances he will be presented with and that 2 inch group would be a killing shot if placed properly on the beast. Equaly so with a hill keeper.If a client proved his worth at longer ranges then he will be ok on the hill. The bottom line is ,Practise on paper not wild animals whether its a fox or a deer. absolutley bang on mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) Yup, he is.... and his shed bungie jumping skills are second to none! Edited April 1, 2011 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 so whats wrong with this rifle of yours gixer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) so whats wrong with this rifle of yours gixer? not a thing alex, my original comment was about how if a new rifle and round and shooter are getting a 2" group, it will come down with practice as they get used to the set-up... there are a few people on here who will confirm my 243 shoots a good group if i do my bit My winchester 94? well...thats another story! (and that is my bit, not the rifle! ) Regards, Gixer Edited April 1, 2011 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 My winchester 94? well...thats another story! (and that is my bit, not the rifle! ) You will have to get your groups down to 1/8th of an inch at 7 yards + a strategic high seat ,if you plan on getting that mouse in your garage ps, I wont be practising falling off shed roofs any more! The fact that I landed on my **** and not my head was a bonus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) sorry my freind but if I could only produce a group like that i would pack up,you should stalk with people who can shoot and have good accurate rifles 2 inch at 500 yards is acceptable but not at 100 If you can produce a group like this at 500yds with a std stalking rifle you will win every hunter class bench rest comp going. Talking the talk is a lot easier than walking the walk Ackley, if you can put those 500 yds 2" group on target you are easily the best f class shooter in the uk, i have done the competitive shooting thing a time or two lets say and it has little relivence to stalking and woundn't ever dream of stalking with the rig you need to shoot bug hole groups at 500yds, quite simply i would be to darn tired at the end of the stalk and couldn't shoot the blooming thing off hand or kneeling without suport. My foxing and stalking partner is perhaps one of the top three PR shots in the country currently and i have personally recorded the groups you talk of in competition- not often as they are as i say garantted wins against the very best. Fact is i wouldn't shoot at a 500yds Deer unless it was my best opertunity at stopping a wounder so a 500yds group is irrelivent to me from a stalking rifle though mine is actually capable of three shot screamers with my handloads @100yds - indeed a gun more capable than EVEN THE GREAT ME! The only thing relivent to this exchange is respect for our quarry and honestly about our abilities "in the field". If you won't stalk with someone who can't do 2" at 100yds that sort of discounts the great Richard Prior doesn't it? as he openly admitteded failing the higher std test set by St Huberts first time round Edited April 1, 2011 by kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) If you can produce a group like this at 500yds with a std stalking rifle you will win every hunter class bench rest comp going. Talking the talk is a lot easier than walking the walk Ackley, if you can put those 500 yds 2" group on target you are easily the best f class shooter in the uk, i have done the competitive shooting thing a time or two lets say and it has little relivence to stalking and woundn't ever dream of stalking with the rig you need to shoot bug hole groups at 500yds, quite simply i would be to darn tired at the end of the stalk and couldn't shoot the blooming thing off hand or kneeling without suport. My foxing and stalking partner is perhaps one of the top three PR shots in the country currently and i have personally recorded the groups you talk of in competition- not often as they are as i say garantted wins against the very best. Fact is i wouldn't shoot at a 500yds Deer unless it was my best opertunity at stopping a wounder so a 500yds group is irrelivent to me from a stalking rifle though mine is actually capable of three shot screamers with my handloads @100yds - indeed a gun more capable than EVEN THE GREAT ME! The only thing relivent to this exchange is respect for our quarry and honestly about our abilities "in the field". If you won't stalk with someone who can't do 2" at 100yds that sort of discounts the great Richard Prior doesn't it? as he openly admitteded failing the higher std test set by St Huberts first time round I think I heard a nail being hit on the head! (although not by me obviously with my poor aim ) I was going to mention the Richard prior thing but thought it would fall on deaf ears, the business must be slow when a stalker won't take out a client who can't shoot a 2" group Regards, Gixer Edited April 1, 2011 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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