CharlieT Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 I really don't get this justification business. Seems to me many people refuse to admit that they shoot because they enjoy pitting their shooting skill against a live quarry. They obviously suffer from some form of misguided guilt about enjoying it and try to cover up their true reason for shooting by pretending that their shooting is purely for altruistic reasons and by doing so they are doing their bit for the nation by controlling vermin and occasionally putting food on the table. For goodness sake grow some balls and tell it as it is.........you shoot because you enjoy it. Enjoyment does not need to be justified, nor does the warm glow you feel when you shoot a good bird be it pigeon, pheasant or grouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart21 Posted March 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 CharlieT, I totally agree with you on your point, I thoroughly enjoy it! Good point made and well put. Also, with some of the points made by others I have fully justified it to myself. Thanks all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 My personal view is that as long as the birds end up in the pot after they are shot is good enough reason to enjoy a day out with like minded people. I have been on driven days and I cannot say I enjoyed the experience, as I found it boring to wait for the birds to come to me. Especially as I found out later, these birds have their flying feathers tampered with so they do not fly away and the keeper loses money on his investment. This is why I very much prefer wildfowling and rough shooting where you have to 'earn' your kill and not pay for it in advance. But as I said, if people enjoy doing it and nothing gets wasted, I have nothing against driven shooting. Just not for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 My personal view is that as long as the birds end up in the pot after they are shot is good enough reason to enjoy a day out with like minded people. I have been on driven days and I cannot say I enjoyed the experience, as I found it boring to wait for the birds to come to me. Especially as I found out later, these birds have their flying feathers tampered with so they do not fly away and the keeper loses money on his investment. This is why I very much prefer wildfowling and rough shooting where you have to 'earn' your kill and not pay for it in advance. But as I said, if people enjoy doing it and nothing gets wasted, I have nothing against driven shooting. Just not for me... How on earth can the the keeper tamper with the feathers to stop them straying but still manage to get them to fly over the guns. I think you may have been told a bit of a tall story or be confused over wing clipping polts to stop them flying out of the release pen. I can assure you that on a propper driven shoot that produces chalanging birds guns do earn their birds to such an extent that a very good shot will not better a cartridge to kill ratio of 6 to 1 and sometines a lot more. Boring it is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Surely if you feel you need to justify it to yourself and can't, then really you shouldn't be doing it? I personally can justify my shooting to myself as I enjoy it, I don't get windsurfing and as such I don't think I would enjoy it and therefore don't do it. Also I do not think there is enough time left in the world to justify golf , but people still do it. But while there are golfers there will be golf couses to keep clear of pests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albertan_J Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 My personal view is that as long as the birds end up in the pot after they are shot is good enough reason to enjoy a day out with like minded people. I have been on driven days and I cannot say I enjoyed the experience, as I found it boring to wait for the birds to come to me. Especially as I found out later, these birds have their flying feathers tampered with so they do not fly away and the keeper loses money on his investment. This is why I very much prefer wildfowling and rough shooting where you have to 'earn' your kill and not pay for it in advance. But as I said, if people enjoy doing it and nothing gets wasted, I have nothing against driven shooting. Just not for me... Flying feathers tampered with ? Sorry but that is complete nonsense. The next time any of you have a walked up day remember how the birds were put down and the effort put in to rear and keep them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 just another sign of pre conceived ideas and not knowing what one is talking about. As pointed out they wouldn't fly with tampered feathers and the only time I've seen it done is to keep them in the release pens a little longer no one in driven shooting wants low flying birds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 ''I have been semi driven once and really enjoyed and will do it again''......make yer mind up pal. Whatever shooting you do you justify it to yourself and you do it. Driven shooting is about friends/day out/traditions/food/sport/countryside mananagement/beating/dog work.In varying degrees to different people.Now which of those parts can you not justify as a shooting man?If you cannot then don't do it..maybe though defend the right of others who can to do so?.. Simples. Hi, Could argue that your definition(s) of driven shooting is/are getting on for being a century out of date. How much of it is now simply business? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Hi, Could argue that your definition(s) of driven shooting is/are getting on for being a century out of date. How much of it is now simply business? Cheers its not really changed, its always been an expensive sport. Some estates sell days to cover the shoot costs and some is done as a financial venture but most is done because people love the sport. If you have a look at how many actually make money out of it its not many at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Albertan,you are full of pony.Sorry you got bored waiting??!Holy moly if you've been driven shooting I am the Queen Mum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) its not really changed, its always been an expensive sport. Some estates sell days to cover the shoot costs and some is done as a financial venture but most is done because people love the sport. If you have a look at how many actually make money out of it its not many at all. You don't actually believe that last statement do you? Nobody does anything out of love anymore, they do it to make money. Why on earth would a large estate put on shoots just to break even? There is no point in doing it, romantic as it sounds they are in it to make money, just like you delvering parcels or me drawing joinery. You'll be telling next that gunshops lug tons of cartridges around just to make a pound per 1000 hoping that someone buys a gun when they come in for some. Edited March 31, 2011 by MC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Apologies to Albertan,I meant Psyxologos in my previuos post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 its not really changed, its always been an expensive sport. Some estates sell days to cover the shoot costs and some is done as a financial venture but most is done because people love the sport. If you have a look at how many actually make money out of it its not many at all. So why are farms I know getting rid of livestock and renting large areas to pheasant shooting? Money is the answer, and when there charging around £300 a day to shoot they will make a good return. It is now an important part of the rural economy and not there to preserve country traditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 You don't actually believe that last statement do you? Nobody does anything out of love anymore, they do it to make money. Why on earth would a large estate put on shoots just to break even? There is no point in doing it, romantic as it sounds they are in it to make money, just like you delvering parcels or me drawing joinery. I think it was sporting gun who had an article on it last year and about 50% of shoots didn't even break even. Some of the best indeed made money but the figures aren't ones that would make it big business and something to go into to make yourself millions. Locally we've had a few estates bought by so called sporting agents who generally went bust within a couple of years. Other than that you have other local estates who sell days to subsidize the owners shooting and smaller syndicates who do it for the sport and just cover costs. Ok the landowner usually makes money out of it but £4 to £5 an acre or more if its got very good sporting potential. Some of the bigger estates who do still sell corporate days sometimes make proper money but they still have massive overheads to cover first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 A few Large commercial operations Bettws Hall make proper money.The vast amount of driven shoots do not! A pheasant poult costs about £3.50,wheat/keepers/fuel/vets/maintenance/fencing/pens etc cost lots! Falcon if you think the land owner/shoot makes £300 per gun you have'nt got an O level in breathing. It is better to be thought a fool than to post and prove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waitesy Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Why feel the need to 'justify' anything that we shooters do ? which is legal and enjoyable. So long as we can show that we act in the best possible way, respect and protect, our quarry spiecies. Let those who disagree with what we do judge us by there narrow minded values.I have found over the years that no matter what logical arguments you put forward some folk will not or do not want to listen. Enjoy your sport for what it is and be prepared to explain 'why' you enjoy it. But never feel the need to 'justify' your enjoyment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 A few Large commercial operations Bettws Hall make proper money.The vast amount of driven shoots do not! A pheasant poult costs about £3.50,wheat/keepers/fuel/vets/maintenance/fencing/pens etc cost lots! Falcon if you think the land owner/shoot makes £300 per gun you haven't got an O level in breathing. It is better to be thought a fool than to post and prove it. dougall You beat me to it. Even some of the largest and best change hands because the owners tire of pumping money into a bottomless pit. The cost of cover crops is becoming astronomic and add to that all the costs mentioned above you're talking serious money. Yes shoots will and do make money but not the sort of money some seem to think. Often sold days help subsidies the shoot costs thus enabling the owner to shoot at a reasonable cost and with farm incomes dropping every little helps. However, talk of making serious money is way off the mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Charlie T,I hear you. Our shoot,and we publish accounts to all involved,breaks even.The Landowner gets 2 driven days out of it,and of course his land is managed properly.If he relied on shooting for his livlihood he would'nt eat! The shoot exists because of the love of it and all it entails.Our shoot would be classed as pretty big,typically 25 days with 3 sold to make ends meet.The outside perception that it is a huge money spinner run by toffs is so far from the truth it hurts! The image that only Merchant Bankers do driven shooting and that it is 500 bird mass murder days of is probably about 5-10% of driven shooting yet that is the image that prevails. It really does'nt help that on a shooting website alot of people,who clearly don;t do driven shooting,fall for the stereotype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) Falcon if you think the land owner/shoot makes £300 per gun you have'nt got an O level in breathing. I don't know what you're point is? as clearly I don't think they make £300 per gun anymore than I think tesco makes £1.20 on a loaf of bread, if you read what I wrote properly you'd see that I said they charge £300 a day because that is what it costs, plus the operators profit. If they don't get the guns they won't make money, Simple as that - no need for any O-levels for that one. I don't know if the new operation near to me makes money as they have only started recently, but I do know they are paying the farmer an awful lot more than he got with dairy (which isn't hard at the moment, I know) so, as with any new business, you put up capital and try to compete with existing businesses, if you don't get it right you fold. If you get it right you earn. I can't see anyone putting in money for fun, hence my point, IT'S A BUSINESS. Edited March 31, 2011 by FalconFN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Oh God more proof... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) I don't know what you're point is? as clearly I don't think they make £300 per gun anymore than I think tesco makes £1.20 on a loaf of bread, if you read what I wrote properly you'd see that I said they charge £300 a day because that is what it costs, plus the operators profit. If they don't get the guns they won't make money, Simple as that - no need for any O-levels for that one. I don't know if the new operation near to me makes money as they have only started recently, but I do know they are paying the farmer an awful lot more than he got with dairy (which isn't hard at the moment, I know) so, as with any new business, you put up capital and try to compete with existing businesses, if you don't get it right you fold. If you get it right you earn. I can't see anyone putting in money for fun, hence my point, IT'S A BUSINESS. oh dear, one thing I can promise you is he isn't giving up dairy and hoping to make an income from shooting. The two events will not be linked, simply because its simple to shoot the same ground as you have cows on. Indeed most of the winter when shooting takes place the cows are inside as its too wet to have them in the fields. Take your basic maths, £300 a day for driven shooting between 8 guns is £2400 a day spread it over 15 days which is optimistic and requires a lot of land and you have a total of £36000 pay for a keeper, his house, his vehicle a quad bike, pen netting, feed and a team of beaters and you can see the maths struggles to make much if anything. Its a hobby sized shoot Edited March 31, 2011 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Hi, It's now become apparent why I said could argue but didn't. As far as I'm concerned, increasingly now, it's business. Anyone charging and anyone having to pay for vermin shooting is already aware of that fact. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 dougall Disbelievers always refuse to understand. We are basically commercial but like you we shoot around 25 - 28 days and to make ends meet I'm sitting here trying to shave off costs to keep within budget. Even such things as reducing the cover crop plots by 50 yards make a huge difference to the bottom line being red or black and if I can slip an extra day or two in then were home and dry and will make a five figure sum this coming season. This small profit plus a couple of "free" days when taken in context with the substantial operating costs does not put me in the "wiz kid entrepreneur" category but rather with the "fool and his money are soon parted" brigade. If I did not love shooting and all it entails I'd find another more profitable use for the land and save a lot of grief but then thats not what life is all about. However, to be fair, adding the shoot income to the sheep and the SFP means we make a modest living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Is that doing the keeping yourself or having a Keeper Charlie, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Alex With a part time keeper who loves his job and works full time and some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.