Rifle grouping

[Vipa]

But you just dont meet many who can shoot 1" consistantly from the posisions used in shooting live quarry. I think it far better to know your own personal limitations well from all the firing posisions you might use in the field, the range at which you can confidently call that single shot and place it in the correct spot( indeed knowing were to place the single shot and when to take it or not are of far greater importance than if you practice shooting 1" groups prone) the limitations of your kit if it be sub moa or not are going to be the least of your worries. I feel your critisism of those who cannot achieve this std with thier kit shows you might have a misplaced feeling of superiourity that is more likely to lead to inhumane shooting in the field.

I do actually believe the likes of the std level 1 test are too low, but only from the point of how many goes the candidate gets- one go at the course of fire following the zero check is all that should be allowed. back when i took my test those people who past first go were in the minority and i am sure it is the same today. Indeed in the field woodland stalking shots approaching 100yds off sticks are far more common than 100 yds prone using bipods or rucksacks, so why not start such a test with a single shot off sticks within the 4" kill zone? Indeed i doubt many or any could achieve a 1" group if they couldn't see thier bullet holes or any other small feature to aim at for that matter and bucks don't just come with these features. Like many cars they are a lot faster than thier drivers similar can be said of guns. New male drivers have high insurance for a reason you know

 

If I remember correctly, I think out of the 8 of us doing the shooting skills test when I did my DSC1 only 1 failed and bizarely he was the only person using his own rifle which could suggest something other than skills being an issue, everyone else passed it first time using the estate rifle. Don't know if this is the norm?

Edited April 11, 2011 by Vipa

[al4x]

I think kent the main point was if you have a rifle that shoots 2" off bags / bipod etc in perfect conditions is that good enough to take into the field where naturally you won't be shooting with an ideal rest etc and your ability to hit a certain target will open up. To me its not

[Catweazle]

Surely a rifle that shoots accurately is the foundation that all the rest of the skills are built on. You can't improve your shooting off sticks if you don't know whether the rifle is missing or you are.

 

And let's not forget Murphys Law of Engineering. " Tolerances will conspire to make assembly as difficult as possible". Which in shooting terms means that if you can shoot within 2" and your rifle can shoot within 2" then the bullet will hit 4" out. ( alright that's not actually true but you get the idea ).

[kent]

I think kent the main point was if you have a rifle that shoots 2" off bags / bipod etc in perfect conditions is that good enough to take into the field where naturally you won't be shooting with an ideal rest etc and your ability to hit a certain target will open up. To me its not

 

Yes although i don't see it as particulary fine shooting under the circumstances it represents no more than shots placed only 1/2" further than the point of aim (when there is a very definate point of aim at that). I will defy anyone to shoot at 100yds in normal field conditions without that definate aim point and tell the difference between those two guns mentioned, Indeed if you took two shooters one who can realy shoot and uses a gun capable of just sub 2" and one that aint too good and give them a 1/4 " gun i know who i should put my money on.

My whole take on this is not to proove how good any of my own guns are ( though i have a few good uns) or how good a shot i am (though i have prooved this in the past many times) It is as the question you posed " what gun and cartridge grouping is required"

[kent]

Surely a rifle that shoots accurately is the foundation that all the rest of the skills are built on. You can't improve your shooting off sticks if you don't know whether the rifle is missing or you are.

 

And let's not forget Murphys Law of Engineering. " Tolerances will conspire to make assembly as difficult as possible". Which in shooting terms means that if you can shoot within 2" and your rifle can shoot within 2" then the bullet will hit 4" out. ( alright that's not actually true but you get the idea ).

 

Your quite right its not actually very true, i have yet to meet the guy who can shoot a single shot onto a wild animal like a deer or fox at 100yds and discern the difference between a 1" or 2" grouping gun. Actually try shooting some groups at 100 yds off sticks standing and see what your groups are like, handling and balance are way more important than a gun that can shoot a little tighter. If it were any different hunting rifles would look way different

[Ackley]

But you just dont meet many who can shoot 1" consistantly from the posisions used in shooting live quarry. I think it far better to know your own personal limitations well from all the firing posisions you might use in the field, the range at which you can confidently call that single shot and place it in the correct spot( indeed knowing were to place the single shot and when to take it or not are of far greater importance than if you practice shooting 1" groups prone) the limitations of your kit if it be sub moa or not are going to be the least of your worries. I feel your critisism of those who cannot achieve this std with thier kit shows you might have a misplaced feeling of superiourity that is more likely to lead to inhumane shooting in the field.

I do actually believe the likes of the std level 1 test are too low, but only from the point of how many goes the candidate gets- one go at the course of fire following the zero check is all that should be allowed. back when i took my test those people who passed first go were in the minority and i am sure it is the same today. Indeed in the field woodland stalking shots approaching 100yds off sticks are far more common than 100 yds prone using bipods or rucksacks, so why not start such a test with a single shot off sticks within the 4" kill zone? Indeed i doubt many or any could achieve a 1" group if they couldn't see thier bullet holes or any other small feature to aim at for that matter and bucks don't just come with these features. Like many cars they are a lot faster than thier drivers similar can be said of guns. New male drivers have high insurance for a reason you know

you will be surprized,i know one or two sporting agents who can tell horror stories of clinets turning up who has done level 1 and couldnt hit a barn door,aslo fall to peices when put in front of a beast,I have seen people take the forestry commission shooting test (needed when having a leas with them)who couldnt hit 4 inch and these had level 2

yes the standards are to low as a newbie stalker is told "if you can hit 4 inch at 100 thats good enough" people then go out with all there new kit not haing a clue what there going to come up against,

I have a mate whos stalked for nearly 30 years shot untold amounts of deer,he zeros his rifle on a brick,if he can hit the brick hes happy,in my opinion its shocking but thats all hes ever known,hes has lost animals miss hit animals whicj in my eyes isnt too good,yes we all miss but you do the best you can not to miss or miss hit,having a rifle that shoots 2 to 4 inch groups of a rest is un acceptable and opens you up for miss hits and misses.

I was out with my mate a few months ago helping him get some meat I was in a high seat,I took a fallow at 120 yards the rest ran and stood at 440 yards,I dialed my Z61 and bang another one in the ba (not willy waving just an example),my mate saw the shot and couldnt believe the shot,the longest shot hes even seen,I have been trying to educate him on what can be acheieved but hes happy with what he does.

what Iam saying is if you havnt got a rifle that produes an accepetable consistant group,not one that "well that shot 2 inch away is a flyer" you have far more margain for error matters not if your shooting prone,freehand or off sticks,as if your not comfortable at any range you dont take the shot

Edited April 11, 2011 by Ackley

[Catweazle]

Your quite right its not actually very true, i have yet to meet the guy who can shoot a single shot onto a wild animal like a deer or fox at 100yds and discern the difference between a 1" or 2" grouping gun. Actually try shooting some groups at 100 yds off sticks standing and see what your groups are like, handling and balance are way more important than a gun that can shoot a little tighter. If it were any different hunting rifles would look way different

 

There must be another Murphys Law that says if there is any way of you misunderstanding a post then you will.

[gixer1]

the rest ran and stood at 440 yards,I dialed my Z61 and bang another one in the ba

 

 

And if this had been a bad shot on that fallow at 1/4 of a mile what then??? at sub 200 yards it's going to be far easier to find the target and get a second shot off thats why shooting live quarry at that range is irresponsible, what was the difference in windspeed between the high seat and the fallow?

 

Most people on here with a rifle have set up targets at 3-400 yards and hit them first shot(i've done it witnessed by 2 members) but that still doesn't justify shooting live quarry at this range - as has been said above you have the "law of sod" and this can ruin any shot no matter how good the rifle or person.

 

as has also been said most of my shots are taken off a grassy bump - so this is how i check my rifle (as per when in the field) not a flat smooth firing line at a range.

 

I have no problem with people hitting targets at 1000 yards, but don't go out and do this on live quarry as it's a recipe for disaster, anyone who has spent any time stalking will know eventually you will get a bad shot, could be due to wind, a pulled shot, ammo etc and at long ranges these errors are much harder to rectify, if its the only option after a 200 yard shot, fine, but not as the initial shot.

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

[Paddy Galore!]

this is getting a tad stressful now, i dont use a proper target for zeroing, all i use is a board, painted white with a rough 2" circle on it, now i can get every bullet in that circle at 50, 100, 200yds.

[Vipa]

And if this had been a bad shot on that fallow at 1/4 of a mile what then??? at sub 200 yards it's going to be far easier to find the target and get a second shot off thats why shooting live quarry at that range is irresponsible, what was the difference in windspeed between the high seat and the fallow?

 

Most people on here with a rifle have set up targets at 3-400 yards and hit them first shot(i've done it witnessed by 2 members) but that still doesn't justify shooting live quarry at this range - as has been said above you have the "law of sod" and this can ruin any shot no matter how good the rifle or person.

 

as has also been said most of my shots are taken off a grassy bump - so this is how i check my rifle (as per when in the field) not a flat smooth firing line at a range.

 

I have no problem with people hitting targets at 1000 yards, but don't go out and do this on live quarry as it's a recipe for disaster, anyone who has spent any time stalking will know eventually you will get a bad shot, could be due to wind, a pulled shot, ammo etc and at long ranges these errors are much harder to rectify, if its the only option after a 200 yard shot, fine, but not as the initial shot.

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

 

Come on ladies... handbags down!!!

 

It's all horses for courses and each shot needs to be taken on it's own merits. Althou the vast majority of my stalking is sub 150yds I would hapily take a shot from a high tower to 3-350 yds because a:) I have lazer rangefinding and b:) I have optics that allow me to quickly dial in that range, so in low wind conditions, in a hightower where I have a solid rest, all I have to worry about is any windage (not an issue as I wouldn't shoot at that range in windy conditions) and the quality of my 'well rested' shooting which I am confident with. The only other consideration is the beasts 'escape route.' If you get a runner (which happens a lot with Sikka irrespective of how well you shoot) it doesn't matter whether it's 100 yds or 1000yds. As long as you have mentally and visually 'marked' where the beast was when it was shot, you will have the same chance of finding it, with or without a dog.

 

The above scenario does not translate to sitting, kneeling, on sticks, standing etc... even my prone shooting isn't as good as my 'bench' style rested shooting so, I make the call depending on the shot...

 

It all boils down to confidence in ones ability and putting some time in at the range punching paper... I work on the same philosophy as musicians.... good amateur musicians practice until they get it right.... professional musicians practice until they don't get it wrong!... follow that and you won't go far wrong but... like everything else.... practice is the key, no-one is born a natural sniper

Edited April 11, 2011 by Vipa

[Ackley]

And if this had been a bad shot on that fallow at 1/4 of a mile what then??? at sub 200 yards it's going to be far easier to find the target and get a second shot off thats why shooting live quarry at that range is irresponsible, what was the difference in windspeed between the high seat and the fallow?

 

Most people on here with a rifle have set up targets at 3-400 yards and hit them first shot(i've done it witnessed by 2 members) but that still doesn't justify shooting live quarry at this range - as has been said above you have the "law of sod" and this can ruin any shot no matter how good the rifle or person.

 

as has also been said most of my shots are taken off a grassy bump - so this is how i check my rifle (as per when in the field) not a flat smooth firing line at a range.

 

I have no problem with people hitting targets at 1000 yards, but don't go out and do this on live quarry as it's a recipe for disaster, anyone who has spent any time stalking will know eventually you will get a bad shot, could be due to wind, a pulled shot, ammo etc and at long ranges these errors are much harder to rectify, if its the only option after a 200 yard shot, fine, but not as the initial shot.

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

you are missing the point yet again (and maybe the target) a bad shot may happen no matter who you are,BUT it matters not waht diastance you shoot at as you should know your comfort zone,a fast hasty shot at 100 yards is going to miss or miss hit,re atke that 100 yard shot taking the time to compose yourself and makw sure you have a "steady shot and rest" the distance dosent matter.

as i have said many times "welcome to the modern sporting firearm" do not tell me what i do is wrong and irresponsable,you should be sating that to the people who are happy to make a 4 inch group at 100 yards

you are forgetting one mayor fact I use a caliber capable of taking animals at 1000 yards so iam only using half its capabilties,as this is what Iam happy with.

long range shots are no different to 100 yard shots if the conditions are not right you dont take the shot,its that simple

now you clearly dont use top notch equipment so you cannot talk of what right and what wrong9No offence ment) as you have never done it,as you say your happy, to 150 yards on the other hand your not really interested in accuarcy and shot placement so in my opinion your the one who irresonsable (again no offence ment)

you state you have no problem with people taking a 200 yard shot,if that person hasnt got the accuarcy there is a hugh chance of a miss hit so your conridicting yourself my mate

dont judge others by your won standards

[njc110381]

It's not the best thing to say to give myself a reputation as a marksman, but my groups are very calibre related. All off of bags I expect roughly...

 

.22cf I expect to be able to hit well under an inch. To be honest if I'm not hitting a one ragged hole group I want to know why if the ammo is home loaded to that gun.

 

Up the recoil a bit to 6.5/.243 and I'm looking at 1/2" making me happy. I can accept several holes in the target as long as they're not far apart.

 

Then move me up another stage to .375H&H, my .338WM etc and without a mod just over an inch is acceptable to me. It's what I would normally shoot a 5 shot group into.

 

Off a bipod in a field 1"ish is possible with all of them - I'll pull heavy calibre shots slightly whether the gun is bagged or on a bipod. Then put me sitting or standing and it all goes a bit belly up. 3" or so at 100 yards is fine in my mind because I'd never take a standing shot at that range anyway. I'm a bit belt and braces when I hunt, I like to get down on the ground or against a solid rest which often means I'll pass on a shot. I've just started to go to the range again to fix it, I can (and used to when I shot more) do better.

[Bewsher500]

I have been shooting for 20+ years.

we always made our own targets like you describe above. bit of wood, 2" black square.

Zeroing was always used for checking the rifle/scope wasnt knocked in transit.

Always at 100yds,, always aiming for a group an inch above the bull.

 

The whole point of getting a fixed range target was not to see who could get the closest groups when perfectly comfortable but to make sure that the Point Blank Range for a 4-6" target was good for 50-200+ yards. deer dont stand at 100yd increments!

 

All very well being able to shoot flies off a target and put three in 2" circle at 100"...last deer I shot didn't have a 2" circle marked on it.

It also wasnt standing perfectly side on at 100yds on a level ground with a nice smooth firing point on a sunny day with no wind.

it was a 75, slightly towards me, 10-15ft below, standing for a couple of seconds before taking another pace. It was raining so hard it hurt, the scope lens was dripping and I could barely feel my hands. To top it all off I was sitting in the edge of a peat bog!

 

Try putting 3 in 2" under those conditions and I will be impressed.

 

If you know your rifle and more importantly, you know your anatomy of your target quarry, a five shot, cold barrel, 4" group at 100 in field conditions is perfectly acceptable HUMANE shooting.

no good putting a bullet in a 2" circle if that circle has missed the lungs/heart.

 

4 out of 12 of the people on my DSC course failed the shooting as they use a black silhouette with no target markings. They may well have had a great .5 MOA group.....but they missed the engine room!

Edited April 11, 2011 by Bewsher500

[Vipa]

 

 

4 out of 12 of the people on my DSC course failed the shooting as they use a black silhouette with no target markings. They may well have had a great .5 MOA group.....but they missed the engine room!

 

 

Good point... No nice neat black circle to aim at!

 

One thing I will say... I've seen a couple of comments linking group size to recoil... This is wholly incorrect.. By the time the muzzle has started to move after firing and your brain registers the recoil, the projectile is well on it's way to the target. Recoil has absolutely no effect on group size.

[Ackley]

I have been shooting for 20+ years.

we always made our own targets like you describe above. bit of wood, 2" black square.

Zeroing was always used for checking the rifle/scope wasnt knocked in transit.

Always at 100yds,, always aiming for a group an inch above the bull.

 

no offence but in that 20 plus years you have never learnt to zero a rifle correclty accoring to caliber and bullet weight,zeroing your rifle at 100 yards 1 inch high does not mean your good for 200 yards,

 

The whole point of getting a fixed range target was not to see who could get the closest groups when perfectly comfortable but to make sure that the Point Blank Range for a 4-6" target was good for 50-200+ yards. deer dont stand at 100yd increments!

 

did you check your rifle at 200 yards or do you just guess and hope the bullet will land somewhere close,I take it you dont use a rangfinder as what would have happened if the deer was stood at 243 yards were would your shot be then

 

All very well being able to shoot flies off a target and put three in 2" circle at 100"...last deer I shot didn't have a 2" circle marked on it.

It also wasnt standing perfectly side on at 100yds on a level ground with a nice smooth firing point on a sunny day with no wind.

it was a 75, slightly towards me, 10-15ft below, standing for a couple of seconds before taking another pace. It was raining so hard it hurt, the scope lens was dripping and I could barely feel my hands. To top it all off I was sitting in the edge of a peat bog!

so you took a quick un calculated shot in very very poor condition on a deer that was about to move,where would hve your bullet hit if the deer would have taken andother pace,persoanlly I would have left going by your desciption

 

Try putting 3 in 2" under those conditions and I will be impressed.

no problem at all you adjust for the weather,the rain wont hurt you the only problem is wind and angle but not at 75 yards

 

If you know your rifle and more importantly, you know your anatomy of your target quarry, a five shot, cold barrel, 4" group at 100 in field conditions is perfectly acceptable HUMANE shooting.

no good putting a bullet in a 2" circle if that circle has missed the lungs/heart.

the rifle would be in the bin if thats all it was capable of doing either that or i would pack up and take up another sport

 

4 out of 12 of the people on my DSC course failed the shooting as they use a black silhouette with no target markings. They may well have had a great .5 MOA group.....but they missed the engine room!

really did you ask those that had missed if they had even seen a deer let alone put a x hair on one,probably not as of late most people have to pass level 1 to get a deer condition and a rifle,also the place where you went should use life like target in size and colour,why would you need a target marking on a silhouette anyway,if you have done your homework and been trained correcly that is

Edited April 11, 2011 by Ackley

[Ackley]

 

One thing I will say... I've seen a couple of comments linking group size to recoil... This is wholly incorrect.. By the time the muzzle has started to move after firing and your brain registers the recoil, the projectile is well on it's way to the target. Recoil has absolutely no effect on group size.

a recoil flinch can seriously mess up your shooting if you have develped one

[Vipa]

a recoil flinch can seriously mess up your shooting if you have develped one

 

I agree but that is a shortcoming in the shooter not the equipment or a result of larger calibres

[Ackley]

I agree but that is a shortcoming in the shooter not the equipment or a result of larger calibres

yes I see what you mean

[kent]

you are missing the point yet again (and maybe the target) a bad shot may happen no matter who you are,BUT it matters not waht diastance you shoot at as you should know your comfort zone,a fast hasty shot at 100 yards is going to miss or miss hit,re atke that 100 yard shot taking the time to compose yourself and makw sure you have a "steady shot and rest" the distance dosent matter.

as i have said many times "welcome to the modern sporting firearm" do not tell me what i do is wrong and irresponsable,you should be sating that to the people who are happy to make a 4 inch group at 100 yards

you are forgetting one mayor fact I use a caliber capable of taking animals at 1000 yards so iam only using half its capabilties,as this is what Iam happy with.

long range shots are no different to 100 yard shots if the conditions are not right you dont take the shot,its that simple

now you clearly dont use top notch equipment so you cannot talk of what right and what wrong9No offence ment) as you have never done it,as you say your happy, to 150 yards on the other hand your not really interested in accuarcy and shot placement so in my opinion your the one who irresonsable (again no offence ment)

you state you have no problem with people taking a 200 yard shot,if that person hasnt got the accuarcy there is a hugh chance of a miss hit so your conridicting yourself my mate

dont judge others by your won standards

 

 

But you havent ever actually shot at 1000 yds, it is far harder than you can compehend to put the first shot into a kil zone on a deer at that range than you can imagine. Shooting out to 1000yds with 30 cal and below " std deer calibres if its better to say - ie no .338 lap mags .50 bmg's etc." it is incredibly hard to place that 1st shot from any dope data you may or may not have. My 308 tactical rifle had a 1000 yds dope of 30.3 MOA on elivation and 8.11 moa wind @ 10 mph in theory, in practice it was very hard to tell what was happening conditions wise that far down range to just dial in and shoot baramotric presure, temprature etc all came into it. The quality of your gun is only a very small part, to be fair dial in only gets you so far even at 300 yds few f-class shooters put thier 1st sighter shot in the v-bull

Shooting silly fallow for meat or otherwise at 440 yds for meat or otherwise is just plain inhumane IMO, even if the shot is called correctly and the release is good the time of flight means the beast can move a considerable way after shot release. I am not some impresionable novice, i have done it, can do it but realise what can go wrong and choose not to

One should to my mind be capable of making a quick second shot if it is ever required at considerably further than the first fast and without any faff and fuss is essential. Best not to talk of those who have never done it when you come across as you do to someone who has.

For a lot of us Stalking is presisely that "stalking" not "shooting" and i recon 2" is good enough for thier needs and you should respect that fact rather than call them "inhumane" or suggest they thow thier rifles in the bin. Personally the best deer i ever took was taken at around 25 yds at most from the knee, it is the only trophy i keep at home (good but not impresive) but what a stalk it was. I feel far prouder of that beast than i do of any extreame range shot i ever took and it took way more skill to get in that close

[Ackley]

But you havent ever actually shot at 1000 yds, it is far harder than you can compehend to put the first shot into a kil zone on a deer at that range than you can imagine. Shooting out to 1000yds with 30 cal and below " std deer calibres if its better to say - ie no .338 lap mags .50 bmg's etc." it is incredibly hard to place that 1st shot from any dope data you may or may not have. My 308 tactical rifle had a 1000 yds dope of 30.3 MOA on elivation and 8.11 moa wind @ 10 mph in theory, in practice it was very hard to tell what was happening conditions wise that far down range to just dial in and shoot baramotric presure, temprature etc all came into it. The quality of your gun is only a very small part, to be fair dial in only gets you so far even at 300 yds few f-class shooters put thier 1st sighter shot in the v-bull

again your not reading what I post,I said my chosen caliber is capale of taking a beast at 1000 yards,and again I said i know my limit which is halg the rifles capabilities,IE 500 yards as thats what I practice at,I have gone to 600 on paper,I havnt got my drops to hand but there a lot less than your data but as you know the 7mm is ballistically far better than a 308

Shooting silly fallow for meat or otherwise at 440 yds for meat or otherwise is just plain inhumane IMO, even if the shot is called correctly and the release is good the time of flight means the beast can move a considerable way after shot release. I am not some impresionable novice, i have done it, can do it but realise what can go wrong and choose not to

a beast can move at 100 yards far easier than a beast at 440 as they can see you easier at 100 yard,so whats the difference,there is more deer missed at shorter distances than futher ones due to taking a quick shot,read the other post about the chap who had seconds to take a shot at 75 yards,you choose yout own limits to your own capabilities,things can go wrong at any distance,no one can argue with that

One should to my mind be capable of making a quick second shot if it is ever required at considerably further than the first fast and without any faff and fuss is essential. Best not to talk of those who have never done it when you come across as you do to someone who has.

what difference does it make if something goes wrong the beast is still running so you have to take a running shot which will mean a miss anyway,no matter what the distance you have to make sure the conditions are correct for that 1 shot,so whay would you need a 2nd shot if you do everything correctly a mess up at 100 yards is no difference to a mess up at 500 yards

For a lot of us Stalking is presisely that "stalking" not "shooting" and i recon 2" is good enough for thier needs and you should respect that fact rather than call them "inhumane" or suggest they thow thier rifles in the bin. Personally the best deer i ever took was taken at around 25 yds at most from the knee, it is the only trophy i keep at home (good but not impresive) but what a stalk it was. I feel far prouder of that beast than i do of any extreame range shot i ever took and it took way more skill to get in that close

it works both ways Iam not the one whois accusing people of being humane or irresponsable,I have even stated thats of your happy with your limits thats fine,but dont judge others by your own actions or abilities,there is no right or wrong as to diastnces shot as long as the end result is the same a 1 shot kill,by the way I enjoy stalking and I enjoy long range shooting,I was snowd in once in Inverness for 3 days,we were up to out waist in snow and still went out shooting,stalking as you put it was impossable so the only way was long range,i shot 18 beast in 3 days closest 50 yards the further 497 yards I actually miseed 5 beast over the 3 days all which were quick close snap shots,so go figure,if I wasnt able to do what I do thats would have been a waste of 3 days and all day spent playing dominos

Edited April 11, 2011 by Ackley

[wymberley]

Cider!?

Right the first time. This drivel could drive one to drink!

[Bewsher500]

no offence but in that 20 plus years you have never learnt to zero a rifle correclty accoring to caliber and bullet weight,zeroing your rifle at 100 yards 1 inch high does not mean your good for 200 yards,

 

none taken but er, yes it does.

It means exactly that. It means I have a have a MPBR of 250yds based on a 2.5" target with no correction or hold over. exactly.

 

You dont know what I was shooting but you claim to know more than me about it. Amazing

come on then Bob Swagger, what was I shooting and what is the drop at 200yds when zeroed at 100yds?

whats the POI at 100 when zeroed at 200yds?

what is the drift at 100yds in a 10mph wind with the bullet I was using?

 

Not once have you mentioned MPBR in any of your posts, not everyone is an internet educated ballistic expert with £1400 32x scope with "the finest smallest reticule ever etched onto glass" and target turrets or carries range finder.

The basic premise of MPBR is on hiiting a 3" (or sometimes 4") target with no correction or holdover. in this case 250yards

its used by sporting shooters so they can acquire a target quickly and be confident that they will kill it quickly without requiring range finders, range notes and target turret clicking.

try doing that on a running boar or when you have a cape buffalo looking at you through your 3x40 scope!

 

Not everyone yearns to be a sniper and "dials" in their rifle's scope every time they take a shot.

Not everyone would take a shot at a deer at 250-300yds let alone 440.

Think we are talking at cross purposes, as you appear to be with some other people on here who happen to have an opinion of their own.

 

You seem proud of the fact that you shot a deer at 440yds. Yet you have the arrogance (there's that word again following your posting, do you see a pattern forming?) to criticize a shot taken at 75 yards.

Shooting deer at that range just shows your utter lack of respect for your quarry. Its simply not impressive.

 

To hit a 4" target at 400 yds require nothing more than basic maths and some practice.

As you so rightly point out, modern rifles and optics will out shoot most shooters.

 

did you check your rifle at 200 yards or do you just guess and hope the bullet will land somewhere close,I take it you dont use a rangfinder as what would have happened if the deer was stood at 243 yards were would your shot be then.

 

actually I have shot this rifle at 200, 300 and 600 but that wasn't the question.

no I dont use a rangefinder, what do you think people did before range finders and high mag scopes?

I dont use a bipod either.

I have never had too or would ever shoot a deer at 243 yds. no reason to. I can get closer than that. That's why its called stalking. If I want to chuck lead at something 300yds away I would go to the range

 

so you took a quick un calculated shot in very very poor condition on a deer that was about to move,where would hve your bullet hit if the deer would have taken and other pace,personally I would have left going by your desciption

 

no, I spent 2 hours stalking it, sat watching it for another 20 as it walked fully into view 15 yds closer, took the shot as it was standing still and dropped it on the spot.

and thankfully you weren't there to take the shot, I was.

 

no problem at all you adjust for the weather,the rain wont hurt you the only problem is wind and angle but not at 75 yards

good luck feeling your turrets, checking your range notes and finding the "on" switch on your range finder in those conditions.

 

the rifle would be in the bin if thats all it was capable of doing either that or i would pack up and take up another sport

 

sport? is that your 500yd live quarry shooting or your 600yd 0.5MOA benchrest shooting?

 

 

really did you ask those that had missed if they had even seen a deer let alone put a x hair on one,probably not as of late most people have to pass level 1 to get a deer condition and a rifle,also the place where you went should use life like target in size and colour,why would you need a target marking on a silhouette anyway,if you have done your homework and been trained correcly that is

 

you must have been there as well were you?

Silhouette or coloured, doesnt make any difference to where you point the rifle. the whole point is to give targets without a bull to test the shooter's knowledge of where to shoot the quarry species.

If after the reading up and training they miss the 6" "bull" then they fail for good reason.

Most if not all of those that failed already had their own rifle and had shot deer previously, all those using the "estate rifle" passed.

 

and as far as I am aware no-one HAS to pass DSC1 to get a deer condition/rifle. but lets not get onto the vagaries of firearms legislation

Edited April 11, 2011 by Bewsher500

[Bewsher500]

no offence but in that 20 plus years you have never learnt to zero a rifle correclty accoring to caliber and bullet weight,zeroing your rifle at 100 yards 1 inch high does not mean your good for 200 yards,

 

none taken but er, yes it does.

It means exactly that. It means I have a have a MPBR of 250yds based on a 2.5" target with no correction or hold over. exactly.

 

You dont know what I was shooting but you claim to know more than me about it. Amazing

come on then Bob Swagger, what was I shooting and what is the drop at 200yds when zeroed at 100yds?

whats the POI at 100 when zeroed at 200yds?

what is the drift at 100yds in a 10mph wind with the bullet I was using?

 

Not once have you mentioned MPBR in any of your posts, not everyone is an internet educated ballistic expert with £1400 32x scope with "the finest smallest reticule ever etched onto glass" and target turrets or carries range finder.

The basic premise of MPBR is on hiiting a 3" (or sometimes 4") target with no correction or holdover. in this case 250yards

its used by sporting shooters so they can acquire a target quickly and be confident that they will kill it quickly without requiring range finders, range notes and target turret clicking.

try doing that on a running boar or when you have a cape buffalo looking at you through your 3x40 scope!

 

Not everyone yearns to be a sniper and "dials" in their rifle's scope every time they take a shot.

Not everyone would take a shot at a deer at 250-300yds let alone 440.

Think we are talking at cross purposes, as you appear to be with some other people on here who happen to have an opinion of their own.

 

You seem proud of the fact that you shot a deer at 440yds. Yet you have the arrogance (there's that word again following your posting, do you see a pattern forming?) to criticize a shot taken at 75 yards.

Shooting deer at that range just shows your utter lack of respect for your quarry. Its simply not impressive.

 

To hit a 4" target at 400 yds require nothing more than basic maths and some practice.

As you so rightly point out, modern rifles and optics will out shoot most shooters.

 

did you check your rifle at 200 yards or do you just guess and hope the bullet will land somewhere close,I take it you dont use a rangfinder as what would have happened if the deer was stood at 243 yards were would your shot be then.

 

actually I have shot this rifle at 200, 300 and 600 but that wasn't the question.

no I dont use a rangefinder, what do you think people did before range finders and high mag scopes?

I dont use a bipod either.

I have never had too or would ever shoot a deer at 243 yds. no reason to. I can get closer than that. That's why its called stalking. If I want to chuck lead at something 300yds away I would go to the range

 

so you took a quick un calculated shot in very very poor condition on a deer that was about to move,where would hve your bullet hit if the deer would have taken and other pace,personally I would have left going by your desciption

 

no, I spent 2 hours stalking it, sat watching it for another 20 as it walked fully into view 15 yds closer, took the shot as it was standing still and dropped it on the spot.

and thankfully you weren't there to take the shot, I was.

 

no problem at all you adjust for the weather,the rain wont hurt you the only problem is wind and angle but not at 75 yards

good luck feeling your turrets, checking your range notes and finding the "on" switch on your range finder in those conditions.

 

the rifle would be in the bin if thats all it was capable of doing either that or i would pack up and take up another sport

 

sport? is that your 500yd live quarry shooting or your 600yd 0.5MOA benchrest shooting?

 

 

really did you ask those that had missed if they had even seen a deer let alone put a x hair on one,probably not as of late most people have to pass level 1 to get a deer condition and a rifle,also the place where you went should use life like target in size and colour,why would you need a target marking on a silhouette anyway,if you have done your homework and been trained correcly that is

 

you must have been there as well were you?

Silhouette or coloured, doesnt make any difference to where you point the rifle. the whole point is to give targets without a bull to test the shooter's knowledge of where to shoot the quarry species.

If after the reading up and training they miss the 6" "bull" then they fail for good reason.

Most if not all of those that failed already had their own rifle and had shot deer previously, all those using the "estate rifle" passed.

 

and as far as I am aware no-one HAS to pass DSC1 to get a deer condition/rifle. but lets not get onto the vagaries of firearms legislation

[gixer1]

[quote name='kent' timestamp='1302534984' post=. Personally the best deer i ever took was taken at around 25 yds at most from the knee, it is the only trophy i keep at home (good but not impresive) but what a stalk it was. I feel far prouder of that beast than i do of any extreame range shot i ever took and it took way more skill to get in that close

 

I have a similar story for the Favourite stalk I had and it was also to do with getting in close in open fields and the buck in question did not have a clue I was there.......a real sense of achievement and what i was always taught stalking was about.

 

In response to there being no difference between a bad shot at 100 or 400 - the difference is if a deer is bad shot at 100 and runs it will be closer that the deer that runs starting at 400 after a bad shot.

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

[Bewsher500]

 

In response to there being no difference between a bad shot at 100 or 400 - the difference is if a deer is bad shot at 100 and runs it will be closer that the deer that runs starting at 400 after a bad shot.

 

 

depends which direction it runs in!!