northeastshooter Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 hi just a quick question (before anybody says i dnt not make homeloads or have fac or sgc yet this is just aquestion so not breaking the law or doing something i no nothing about) is it legal to sell home load to other shooters aslong as they have the right licence e.g other people at the clay club, range or shooting buddy? sorry if a daft one but couldnt find the answer on the net thanks boys and girl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 It's illegal to sell any ammo that hasn't been proof tested. You can GIVE ammo to your friends if you want to, and suffer the consequences if they harm themselves with it as a result of it being unsafe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northeastshooter Posted July 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Its not legal but it goes on, of course it does. It depends really on what you are reloading because its a lot of work and it doesn't really save that much money,except in pistol calibres. With rfle and shotgun its probably dearer than buying them anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Its not legal but it goes on, of course it does. It depends really on what you are reloading because its a lot of work and it doesn't really save that much money,except in pistol calibres. With rfle and shotgun its probably dearer than buying them anyway. Once you buy the kit its a ton cheaper to handload rifle calibres, but i think most of us do it for the control it gives us. for example Brass based on a std deer calibre. £50 per hundred or 50pence each reloaded ten times 5pence a pop Primers £40 per thousand 4pence a pop (bench rest std) bullets £25 per hundred 25pence a pop (good quality expanding) 1lb of powder £38 175 loads 22pence a pop ( if your on a .222 or the likes 1/2 this cost) total 56 pence each for quality deer type cartidges custom made to suit your gun about the same price as the very cheapest factory rubbish but compared with decent hunting loads from Fedral or the like at £1.50 a pop WAY CHEAPER. Of course you can also cut the cost still further with cheap nasty componants and beat the very cheapest factory offerings but why? To re-load you dont always have to buy a press either if you go down the hand die route Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northeastshooter Posted July 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Once you buy the kit its a ton cheaper to handload rifle calibres, but i think most of us do it for the control it gives us. for example Brass based on a std deer calibre. £50 per hundred or 50pence each reloaded ten times 5pence a pop Primers £40 per thousand 4pence a pop (bench rest std) bullets £25 per hundred 25pence a pop (good quality expanding) 1lb of powder £38 175 loads 22pence a pop ( if your on a .222 or the likes 1/2 this cost) total 56 pence each for quality deer type cartidges custom made to suit your gun about the same price as the very cheapest factory rubbish but compared with decent hunting loads from Fedral or the like at £1.50 a pop WAY CHEAPER. Of course you can also cut the cost still further with cheap nasty componants and beat the very cheapest factory offerings but why? To re-load you dont always have to buy a press either if you go down the hand die route thanks just looking to buy my first house first thing to go in is the shot gun-cab and its got a good size garage for my diy work shop and was thinking about getting reloading gear but wasnt sure if it would be worth it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) If you want to see what it's all about I think the Barbican Armoury an Bracepeth still do reloading demonstrations, failing that you're more than welcome to pop over and see my stuff, or I could bring some kit over to show you as I have a caravan at New Hall farm so go through Witton Le Wear fairly often. Costing for my .308 at 10x case usage are, Case (Lapua bought in USA) 5p N140 powder (Bulk 3.5Kg) 17p CCI Primer 3p A-Max 168gr (Bought in USA) 18p So very high quality ammo at £41 x 100 Edited July 6, 2011 by phaedra1106 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Ha Ha!! It's bull that it is illegal, it happens and it happens legally, all those suggesting it is illegal need to look at the LAW, not what some shooting governing body says, there have been all sorts of suggestions that shooting organisations/proof houses say it is illegal, and there has been all sorts of debate about this, they can say the world is flat if they want, they do NOT make the law, they make rules for their organisations! Unless something has changed recently it is Legal, if you are convinvced it isn't, kindly direct me to any part of any Government passed LAW applicable to the UK which says it is illegal? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Dekers,You are quite correct in that it is perfectly legal to make and sell shotgun cartridges to the appropriately certificated persons. The part of your post that intrigues me is the bit where you say "there have been all sorts of suggestions that shooting organisations/proof houses say it is illegal." Those allegations certainly do not apply to this thread so exactly which organisation or proof authority says you can`t do it? I`m curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsportshooter Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Ha Ha!! It's bull that it is illegal, it happens and it happens legally, all those suggesting it is illegal need to look at the LAW, not what some shooting governing body says, there have been all sorts of suggestions that shooting organisations/proof houses say it is illegal, and there has been all sorts of debate about this, they can say the world is flat if they want, they do NOT make the law, they make rules for their organisations! Unless something has changed recently it is Legal, if you are convinvced it isn't, kindly direct me to any part of any Government passed LAW applicable to the UK which says it is illegal? Cheers Business and other transactions with firearms and ammunition.. (1)A person commits an offence if, by way of trade or business, he—. (a)manufactures, sells, transfers, repairs, tests or proves any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun; F1.... (b)exposes for sale or transfer, or has in his possession for sale, transfer, repair, test or proof any such firearm or ammunition, or a shot gun, [F2or. ©sells or transfers an air weapon, exposes such a weapon for sale or transfer or has such a weapon in his possession for sale or transfer,]. without being registered under this Act as a firearms dealer. Just found this from the 68 act - does this not cover what you are suggesting??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northeastshooter Posted July 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) glad i asked the question naw is there anywere on a police or gov website witch states the law on this? thanks phaedra1106 i might take u up on that when i get my moved Edited July 6, 2011 by northeastshooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsportshooter Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 I posted my bit above after reading sec 3 of the firearms act 1968 (Google Firearms Act). I'm not professing to know the law inside out but thats what it says there - Maybe it has been repealed by later legislation - Dekers can you advise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsportshooter Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) I posted my bit above after reading sec 3 of the firearms act 1968 (Google Firearms Act). I'm not professing to know the law inside out but thats what it says there - Maybe it has been repealed by later legislation - Dekers can you advise? HOWEVER The 1997 ammendment act states : 32 Transfers of firearms etc. to be in person.. (1)This section applies where, in Great Britain. (a)a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of the 1968 Act applies is sold, let on hire, lent or given by any person, or. (b)a shot gun is sold, let on hire or given, or lent for a period of more than 72 hours by any person,. to another person who is neither a registered firearms dealer nor a person who is entitled to purchase or acquire the firearm or ammunition without holding a firearm or shot gun certificate or a visitors firearm or shot gun permit. (2)Where a transfer to which this section applies takes place. (a)the transferee must produce to the transferor the certificate or permit entitling him to purchase or acquire the firearm or ammunition being transferred;. (b)the transferor must comply with any instructions contained in the certificate or permit produced by the transferee;. ©the transferor must hand the firearm or ammunition to the transferee, and the transferee must receive it, in person.. (3)A failure by the transferor or transferee to comply with subsection (2) above shall be an offence. But note there is no mention of ammunition 'manufactured' so who knows really. Edited July 6, 2011 by Newsportshooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 I think it all comes down to whether you do it for a profit. That would certainly be seen as dodgy by the police as it could be construed as dealing. I would not see the point in spending hours out in the garage just to do a favour for your mates. And I still don't think that financially reloading is going to save you that much. Hours of work saves you what? a tenner if you are lucky. I'm not rich but my evenings are worth more than that. Besides I buy privi and that makes reloading uneconomical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 There is debate whichever way you want to look at it and as far as I am aware there have never been any prosecutions for selling home loads (excluding of course dodgy back room pub deals). Whatever the legislation may suggest or imply to some, the way through all the mess is simple, and we have been here before. You set up your own shooting association, of which all your customers become a member, and you are then selling privately to members, the fact you are a RFD is neither here nor there. These are private sales, just like buying from your mate. Easy, and setting all other debate aside this is unquestionably legal. Let's not get into the Spirit of the law, it is legal or it isn't, and this is legal until someone changes the law. My main RFD makes a decent living because he also runs a Shooting Association, he has done openly for around 10years and his business is growing! To be honest, in his case it was the other way round, the RFD followed after loads of people in his shooting association wanted his home loads, he decided there was money to be made and so away he went! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Profit has nothing to do with it. To some extent, as an amateur loader,quantity has an effect on what you can do by virtue of the HSE Explosives Regulations which also includes the number of primers you can hold, but provided you are operating under those thresholds there is no problem. Nor is there if you exceed them provided you comply with the law and do as instructed by it. You do not have to be an RFD. Many ironmongers sell cartridges, but not guns, and are not RFD`s. In the commercial sense it would be sensible to have product liability insurance which might be difficult or expensive to obtain and it goes without saying that your cartridges must be loaded to a recipe which is proof tested and within CIP limits. Selling "wildcat" homeloads which are not proof tested and are outside CIP parameters infringe into clearly defined legislative areas concerning Proof and are illegal. But the answer to the general question of "Can I sell homeloaded shotgun cartridges?" is a clear "yes" provided you observe the above proof laws. Older readers may remember the days when one could buy cartridges from a gunshop that had actually been loaded by hand on the premises. Observing the above rules, it was lawful then and is still lawful now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Profit has nothing to do with it. To some extent, as an amateur loader,quantity has an effect on what you can do by virtue of the HSE Explosives Regulations which also includes the number of primers you can hold, but provided you are operating under those thresholds there is no problem. Nor is there if you exceed them provided you comply with the law and do as instructed by it. You do not have to be an RFD. Many ironmongers sell cartridges, but not guns, and are not RFD`s. In the commercial sense it would be sensible to have product liability insurance which might be difficult or expensive to obtain and it goes without saying that your cartridges must be loaded to a recipe which is proof tested and within CIP limits. Selling "wildcat" homeloads which are not proof tested and are outside CIP parameters infringe into clearly defined legislative areas concerning Proof and are illegal. But the answer to the general question of "Can I sell homeloaded shotgun cartridges?" is a clear "yes" provided you observe the above proof laws. Older readers may remember the days when one could buy cartridges from a gunshop that had actually been loaded by hand on the premises. Observing the above rules, it was lawful then and is still lawful now. I'm not entirely convinced about this, it all comes down to interpretation and the assertion that your licence allows you to hold ammo for "personal use" whatever that means. I don't even know where it says that is the case but I have heard it quoted more than once in the past. I do know that a buying syndicate operated by my friend was required to register one of the members as an RFD. A request to increase one individual's buy/hold amounts to allow him to buy 7.62 ammo to then transfer to other members FAcs was refused. This sort of stuff comes as a good example of what one FEO will agree to another will want to jump all over you for. You will find very different opionions on this. Very common problem I would imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsportshooter Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Are we talking about the selling of home made shotgun cartridges only (which are not sec 1) or are we talking about any home loaded ammo, centrefire etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northeastshooter Posted July 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 my question was for any cartridge. thanks for all the replies think id stick to just making them for my self Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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