bicykillgaz Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 (edited) just got round to reading my shooting and conservation magazine from basc and on page 9 they have got a 'hit or myth' section the topic is 'it's illegal to use a .22 rimfire for fox' which apparently is a myth, it says- "there is no legislative obstacle to using any firearm for fox control, unless prohibited by a condition on your firearm certificate. foxes fall within the definition of "vermin" and no court has said otherwise. if "vermin" are featured in the certificate condition it is lawful to cull them with a rifle. however using an air rifle or a calibre which waslikely to wound a fox rather than acheive a clean kill could lay you open to prosecution under animal welfare legislation. for best practice advice about the use of rimfire rifles please contact basc's firearm department." so basically as i read it i could shoot a fox as my ticket says vermin on it and dooesn't state that i can't shoot fox. i'm not trying to open a can of worms with all the centerfire lads either, i've shot fox in the past with my .22lr as i was under the understanding that fox was vermin, i rang my firearms depot for clarification after a topic on here last year and they said that in my area you can't shoot fox .22lr yet this would suggest they are making up their own laws to me. don't get me wrong i'm not planning on going out foxing with my .22lr after reading this but there has been a couple of times when i've been out rabbiting and let one walk past me at 40yrds and didn't shoot when i could of. i know there are far better suited calibre for fox but a well placed .22 subsonic is equally effective at a sensible/short distances as most people know. cheers gary Edited July 9, 2011 by bicykillgaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 So long as you kill the animal humanely then just crack on and don't make a fuss. Know-one will know and it would require a test case in court to 'do' you for shooting outside your conditions. A decent lawyer would get you off no bother. Anyone know of anyone EVER suffered any consequences from shooting outside of their conditions on their FAC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicykillgaz Posted July 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 before i got clarification i've shot 6 with my .22lr all sub 50yrds 5x headshot from side on and one young black cub from 30yrds just behind the shoulder, but since i checked i've let 2 pass me by un harmed, i'd never risk been the 'test case' but then again i'd never deliberately take a risky shot on one. atb gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 This was covered in the thread: http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/172361-interesting/ Even so I would be interested in reading any other peoples points of views on the subject as it really is something that could effect a great many shooters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 How can the police take you to court for shooting outside your conditions. So long as you have vermin on your FAC there noting to worry about. Its written in black and white and as for the police saying no to fox with .22. Write to them and ask if in the eyes of the law dose fox fall into the vermin category. Which it dose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowen20 Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 i love the police i think that they are fantastic. why cant i have a job where i just keep changing and making up my own rules so that my customers have to bend over backwards for me. and still the customers love it and keep coming back and giving me money. seriously thow they are *****! on my license it says that my .17hmr may be used for vermin and ground game etc. for my .223 and .22-250 says for vermin ground game and fox. so they have stated it there but as far as im concerned a fox comes under vermin and if i was to see one when out with my .17hmr it would get shot as long as it was in range and presented a safe shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drut Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 Northumbria class fox as "vermin" while other forces class as separate but even individual FEO's seem to have their own interpretation of Firearms Guidelines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 It's a grey area I think. The easiest thing to do is to not mention it, or apply for the any other lawful quarry condition so there is no question. I've shot a few foxes with my .22lr. It seems to work fine as long as you're pretty close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 What the Police think is irrelevant, what the Law says counts. To convict against the FAC condition, you have to prove a fox isn't vermin. I think you may struggle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveo26 Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Iv been told by two FLOs I have not got a calibre suitable for fox and can NOT shoot them. Iv got .22 air, .22 rimfire and .17 hmr, and got "vermin" on my ticket. I think discretion is the key Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Surely this is why we have a BASC? It must be simple enough for BASC to contact the ACPO spokesperson for firearm licensing and ask this question for the shooters BASC represents. If you have an FAC and it says vermin on it for a .22 rimfire, is it legal to shoot fox at sensible range or is it not. It doesnt matter which force area you are in - just a straight answer to a simple question? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaiyn Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Northumbria class fox as "vermin" while other forces class as separate but even individual FEO's seem to have their own interpretation of Firearms Guidelines. And quite frankly, some FEO's in my experience have very little knowledge of shooting generally or firearms law. Personally I find this a cause for concern. Regards Z. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willy1 Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 On my FAC issued by Kent,it allows for my .22r/f to be used for vermin AND fox. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Surely this is why we have a BASC? It must be simple enough for BASC to contact the ACPO spokesperson for firearm licensing and ask this question for the shooters BASC represents. If you have an FAC and it says vermin on it for a .22 rimfire, is it legal to shoot fox at sensible range or is it not. It doesnt matter which force area you are in - just a straight answer to a simple question? Cheers That is the point - IT IS NOT UP TO ACPO TO DECIDE! The issue here is whether a fox counts as vermin. In common language it does, and thus without any other overriding document it does. That is my opinion, and the opinion who decides is a judge. iF the police wan to stop it then they need clearer wording! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Surely this is why we have a BASC? It must be simple enough for BASC to contact the ACPO spokesperson for firearm licensing and ask this question for the shooters BASC represents. If you have an FAC and it says vermin on it for a .22 rimfire, is it legal to shoot fox at sensible range or is it not. It doesnt matter which force area you are in - just a straight answer to a simple question? Cheers I totally agree with you mate. Many (If not all) of us have been saying for ages that it is time that all Firearms Offices started singing from the same hymn sheet. The biggest question is "How is it that how can some Firearms Offices say it is alright and perfectly legal to shoot foxes with a rimfire yet others say it is not? Where are they getting their information from to base this decision on and why is this such a contraversial subject? Surely it is (Or should be) very straight forward and clear cut - Either foxes are catagorised as "Vermin" and therefor come under the standard condition on a FAC of "Vermin and Ground Game" making them legal to shoot as long as you have that condition on your FAC or they are not classed as vermin right across the card and can not be shot with any rimfire rifle regardless of what area you live in! With the BASC being just about the largest and most influential shooting organisation in the UK I would have thought that they would not have put such a "questionable" statement into print unless they are pretty sure of their facts, knowing that it could put many shooters at logger heads with their Firearms Office! Maybe this would be a good time for "DavidBASC" to step in and give hit take on the matter if he reads this thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpha Mule Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 I had this conversation with my FEO last week and he was aware that there was a grey area (he may well have been subtly testing me) in what is termed 'vermin'. I think it went my way when I pointed out that I may well have 'vermin' for my 22LR, but if a sizeable deer is eating a farmers crops, then it can be classed as vermin, but that wouldn't make it right to have a pop at it. I reckon that discretion, respect and some common sense is the main thing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 How can the police take you to court for shooting outside your conditions. So long as you have vermin on your FAC there noting to worry about. Its written in black and white and as for the police saying no to fox with .22. Write to them and ask if in the eyes of the law dose fox fall into the vermin category. Which it dose problem is fox on my conditions is listed against guns to be used for fox, IE cleveland do not class fox as vermin, I reckon if (unlikely admitted) taken to task I would have a hard time explaining why I had gone outside the conditions of my ticket, a ticket I had signed onto at that. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 There are a few issues that mean it couldn't lead to a conviction. Firstly you have the dictionary definition which foxes most definitely do live up to, then you have the side issue of why some forces allow it and some don't, some class them as vermin and some list them on tickets. A judge is going to get very lost on why its illegal in manchester with one gun yet someone from Herts has it on their gun that just happens to be the same. To my mind they obviously aren't a dedicated fox gun but very capable in the right situations and also the safer / quieter option in some situations. BASC firearms have made it clear what they think and personally I wouldn't question any FEO as that lets them say no to your face. Discretion is the better part and belief that foxes are vermin is one that as BASC says should be explained if they aren't. Simple fact is if you are with BASC I wouldn't worry about it at all as they've stuck their neck out with the statement on the subject so would back you were the worst to happen. Foxes have been shot for years and years on vermin conditions and its never been tested which tells you rather a lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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