hambone Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 i cant understand this, why carry two bags/boxes/belts of cartridges and faff about loading a different cartridge to each barrel when you could just take 1 that will do the job!? not a nasty dig at you i just dont understand why!? i suppose i dont have that problem anyway as i use a semi but if it gets busy surely you will make mistakes anyway or even miss out on shots due to not loading your gun quick enough if your minds on loading the 'right' cartridge into a certain barrel? Not offended mate and yes sometimes i reload whatever is to hand but if i have time thats what i do. As said i don't shoot massive ammounts of pigeons and like to eat what i do, a bird hit close with 32g 6's is not good eating in my experience. I should add that i only shoot them because i like eating them as i have to travel to a productive area and my efforts would be hard to put in the pest control category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sg1 Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 I've been following this thread with great interest as I'm a clayshooter up till this Friday when I'm going on my first pigeon shoot with a mate and I've just bought 4 boxes(100 carts) of Clever Mirage lite game 30.5gr size 6(or maybe 5's if they're going by the Italian sizing chart and not the UK one) . So from what I've read so far here, I'll be fine with 30.5 gr loads?? atvb sg1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 So from what I've read so far here, I'll be fine with 30.5 gr loads?? sg1 You'll have no problems at all with them Enjoy your day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 (edited) If cheapness is your only concern fill ya boots. And thats the only reason people use clay loads for hunting If Gamebore clear pigeons, 30g #6's, where available at £150 per 1000, then everyone would use them A .22 rimfire will kill a man at ''sensible ranges,'' I suppose as the Army needs to save a few quid they could use them instead A .22 rimfire would also kill a deer at ''sensible ranges,'' how many of you would say that that was acceptable too Edited August 16, 2011 by chrispti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 And thats the only reason people use clay loads for hunting If Gamebore clear pigeons, 30g #6's, where available at £150 per 1000, then everyone would use them A .22 rimfire will kill a man at ''sensible ranges,'' I suppose as the Army needs to save a few quid they could use them instead A .22 rimfire would also kill a deer at ''sensible ranges,'' how many of you would say that that was acceptable too Cheapness is one of the main reasons i started using loads with 7 1/2 shot. I went to the local gun shop one day and was annoyed that my usual brand's price had gone up (rio 30gm 6). I asked what they had that was cheaper. "Try these" came the reply, "They'll do the same job,they're the way forward". I bought a slab of rio 28gm 7 1/2 clay loads. Like many, i thought they would only be good for close range stuff. That was about 4 years ago and i now use mostly 28gm 7 1/2 because i can kill well at distance with them and don't see the point in paying more for something that will do the same job. Me and a mate shot 216 pigeons on a rape stubble recently. He was amazed at some of the kills i was getting. He was using fiocchi 32gm 6 and wasn't getting any rangier kills. Ps. The bloke who advised on buying the clay cartridges for pigeons is now Basc regional officer for the east. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 Cheapness is one of the main reasons i started using loads with 7 1/2 shot. I went to the local gun shop one day and was annoyed that my usual brand's price had gone up (rio 30gm 6). I asked what they had that was cheaper. "Try these" came the reply, "They'll do the same job,they're the way forward". I bought a slab of rio 28gm 7 1/2 clay loads. Like many, i thought they would only be good for close range stuff. That was about 4 years ago and i now use mostly 28gm 7 1/2 because i can kill well at distance with them and don't see the point in paying more for something that will do the same job. Me and a mate shot 216 pigeons on a rape stubble recently. He was amazed at some of the kills i was getting. He was using fiocchi 32gm 6 and wasn't getting any rangier kills. Ps. The bloke who advised on buying the clay cartridges for pigeons is now Basc regional officer for the east. I have only tried 7.5 once a few years ago. Eley firsts I think they were, and a hell of a lot of pigeons were walking wounded. So I personally dont have any confidence using them. For the last couple of years I have been using a fast Express load, 28g #5's, which I used for everything, walked up, rough, roosting, flight line, decoying, rabbits etc, and have had very very good results. I might give them another go, try a decent (cheaper than a pigeon/game cart) clay load and see what happens again, I dont feel very confident that they will do the job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 I think a lot can be learned by shooting your chosen cartridge at a wide piece of wallpaper. Some people who have suddently experienced better or worse kills when switching cartridges have probably found one that patterns well or badly in their gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziplex Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 I have only tried 7.5 once a few years ago. Eley firsts I think they were, and a hell of a lot of pigeons were walking wounded. So I personally dont have any confidence using them. For the last couple of years I have been using a fast Express load, 28g #5's, which I used for everything, walked up, rough, roosting, flight line, decoying, rabbits etc, and have had very very good results. I might give them another go, try a decent (cheaper than a pigeon/game cart) clay load and see what happens again, I dont feel very confident that they will do the job If I can down them with 7.5's i'm more than sure most wouldn't struggle, I do tend to put 7.5's in the first barrel with the o/u though if i've got a mixed bag of cart's, (which for some reason I always seem to have). The few hundred 7.5's i've used are 28grm Lyalvale and they work just fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 I have only tried 7.5 once a few years ago. Eley firsts I think they were, and a hell of a lot of pigeons were walking wounded. So I personally dont have any confidence using them. For the last couple of years I have been using a fast Express load, 28g #5's, which I used for everything, walked up, rough, roosting, flight line, decoying, rabbits etc, and have had very very good results. I might give them another go, try a decent (cheaper than a pigeon/game cart) clay load and see what happens again, I dont feel very confident that they will do the job Why not try mixing some in with your normal loads and try to forget what cartridge is in the chamber. I think you may be surprised at how well you/they perform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziplex Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Why not try mixing some in with your normal loads and try to forget what cartridge is in the chamber. I think you may be surprised at how well you/they perform. I don't doubt what you say motty, i've had very few 'walk' with them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyotemaster Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 Without a doubt the difference in the 7 1/2s that are viewed as sure killers and the ones that are categorized as terrible cripplers is shot hardness. I would be pretty sure that the clay target loads you are shooting have 5-6% antimony and THAT is the difference. The el cheapo loads are throwing 3% antimony and will have more pellet deformation hence flyers that cripple. The plastic shot cup improves patterns but it is still the shot that makes or breaks the load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 Cheapness is one of the main reasons i started using loads with 7 1/2 shot. I went to the local gun shop one day and was annoyed that my usual brand's price had gone up (rio 30gm 6). I asked what they had that was cheaper. "Try these" came the reply, "They'll do the same job,they're the way forward". I bought a slab of rio 28gm 7 1/2 clay loads. Like many, i thought they would only be good for close range stuff. That was about 4 years ago and i now use mostly 28gm 7 1/2 because i can kill well at distance with them and don't see the point in paying more for something that will do the same job. Me and a mate shot 216 pigeons on a rape stubble recently. He was amazed at some of the kills i was getting. He was using fiocchi 32gm 6 and wasn't getting any rangier kills. Ps. The bloke who advised on buying the clay cartridges for pigeons is now Basc regional officer for the east. Think you may find that if he sees the above that that source of information has just dried up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 Without a doubt the difference in the 7 1/2s that are viewed as sure killers and the ones that are categorized as terrible cripplers is shot hardness. I would be pretty sure that the clay target loads you are shooting have 5-6% antimony and THAT is the difference. The el cheapo loads are throwing 3% antimony and will have more pellet deformation hence flyers that cripple. The plastic shot cup improves patterns but it is still the shot that makes or breaks the load. I think you`re right. The cheaper clay loads of 7.5 shot don`t just have softer shot but are also more often than not slightly slower. This is one reason I personally don`t rate so called game specific loads any more than clay loads. Soft shot is supposed to deform and impart more energy to the bird , give me break. Hot clay loads such as the Eley superbs containing high antimony fold pigeon like you wouldn`t believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 I think you`re right. The cheaper clay loads of 7.5 shot don`t just have softer shot but are also more often than not slightly slower. This is one reason I personally don`t rate so called game specific loads any more than clay loads. Soft shot is supposed to deform and impart more energy to the bird , give me break. Hot clay loads such as the Eley superbs containing high antimony fold pigeon like you wouldn`t believe. Not sure about shot hardness and cheap cartridges. I generally use whatever is cheapest. Just lately that has meant rio, kent velocity, eley firsts and victory sporter. Some are nearer English shot size 7, but all are budget loads at around £3.75 a box. On a little outing today i killed a cracking left and right with some of these shells. Both pigeons were over 50 yards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 Think you may find that if he sees the above that that source of information has just dried up! Why? He is also an advocate of steel 7's on decoyed pigeon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 As long as you keep your kill zone range sensible they will be fine and kill well if they are plastic ward better make sure you are ok to use them over the ground you have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyotemaster Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 I suppose you will all want to throw me under the bus for this post,BUT I don't think velocity is the big advantage as some see it. Spherical shot is very ineffecient from a ballistic standpoint. The faster you push it the quicker it slows down, when a load exits the muzzle at a screaming 1400fps. it is likely only going very slightly faster than a load launched at 1200fps.The biggest difference is the amount of recoil to contend with and increased setback deformation from the rapid launch force. If velocity made a huge difference the live bird loads for columbaire would be going 1350 instead of 1220, these guys shoot for big money and know exactly what it takes. Their loads do contain the hardest shot available. I have to keep in mind that most of your loads don't have plastic shot cups and all mine do and they are NOT eco friendly. It is unsightly to see several hundred plastic wads littering the shooting ground and I understand your concerns there. Velocity is BIG in rifles and small in shotguns because of ballistic effeciency of the projectile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rapid12 Posted August 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 well thanks guys for all your advice and tips. after reading all this i went out and did some close decoying over stubble using a box or two of browning 28gr number 7 1/2s. they seemed different to shoot at first with the very light recoil and distance always in my mind ( thinking keep close ) but after a few good hits at 25yards i found myself going further, too my unexpected surprise i hit 2 crows also out to 45yards which folded them stone dead on impact like you all say its down to quality loads/shot/velocity and range, many factors involved but all i can say is i will be using up the remaining shells i have left. thanks guys. regards mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayano3 Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 I shoot Pigeons (over decoys and roost shooting) with an AYA no4 with 26" barrels choked Imp Cyl and 1/4 Cyl and only ever use Eley First 28gm (1oz) 2 1/2" (65mm) Plastic wad 7 1/2. The spec I found for these are as follows: Shot size 7 1/2, 3 % Ant. Muzzle Velocity 1350 fps 411 m/s and Observed Velocity of 1050 fps 320 m/s. I have found these great cartridges and have shot many pigeons at various ranges with these (and driven Phesant). I have stuck to Eley Cartridges for quite a while now and can see no reason to change. Please dont tell me these are no good for pigeons or I will have to sell about 5000 of them I have stored away !! I have said on other threads that I feel gun fit is equally as important as the cartridge used and choke etc. If your gun dont fit and dont shoot where you think you are aiming it, youre just wasting lead and your hard earned cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 (edited) A cartridge is a cartridge, some may be better than others but a pigeon doesn't know the difference. shoot what you have got. If you think you can do better buy different next time but all cartridges will do. How well? well thats a matter for debate but a well shot pigeon is a dead pigeon. nunbers don't count. All cartridges are good enough. Some may be better, some may be worse but I can tell you pigeons know **** all about cartridges. All they know about is lead in the air. And they learn that the hard way. Myself, I advocate 32g of 7s and a slow powder reload such as green dot. But thats my style I I wouldn't critiscise others for having different views. If I were asked out and all I had were 28g 6s I would not hesitate to use them . Like I said before the pigeons know f---- all about cartridges. And if they were plastic wads, so what? it only takes a minute to pick them up before I go home. Edited September 3, 2011 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 Ok, I tried a box of Hull pro comp (I think they were) 28g#7.5 through 3/4 choke. The result was murdered pigeons over the decoys . However, anything further out or high, you could hear the shot going through the feathers and plenty of them comming off! BUT the majority just flew on I then swapped to some Clear Pigeons, 30g #6, and the long or high birds looked like they were flying into a brick wall absolutely poleaxed them A pigeon shooting load is always dependant on a mixture of shot size, choke and the range at which you expect to kill your birds. Any bird must be hit with enough pellets of sufficient energy to be reasonably sure of killing it at the range at which you have fired at it. Its no coincidence that after more than 100 years of shotgun technology, the perfect combination of 30/32g of #6 has never been improved upon for general decoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Ok, I tried a box of Hull pro comp (I think they were) 28g#7.5 through 3/4 choke. The result was murdered pigeons over the decoys . However, anything further out or high, you could hear the shot going through the feathers and plenty of them comming off! BUT the majority just flew on I then swapped to some Clear Pigeons, 30g #6, and the long or high birds looked like they were flying into a brick wall absolutely poleaxed them A pigeon shooting load is always dependant on a mixture of shot size, choke and the range at which you expect to kill your birds. Any bird must be hit with enough pellets of sufficient energy to be reasonably sure of killing it at the range at which you have fired at it. Its no coincidence that after more than 100 years of shotgun technology, the perfect combination of 30/32g of #6 has never been improved upon for general decoying. You've been reading sporting gun again. Mr Theobald has changed his tune in recent years. When i've been shooting with him, he used to swear by an ounce of 7's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 You've been reading sporting gun again. Mr Theobald has changed his tune in recent years. When i've been shooting with him, he used to swear by an ounce of 7's. So did Archie Coates . Over decoys he is said to have revised his choice from 6 to 7 shot. I agree with the other poster regarding high birds, 7.5`s are not a wise choice there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 So the sensible answer for when decoying has to be the ideal combination of both pellet energy and count in the form of 61/2s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proTOM1 Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Like ive said in the past its not totally down to the size of the shot or the gun or the chock its down to the person behind the gun fact Ive been using 7.5s for some time now and find very little difference from 28g 6s ,which i also use .For me it depends on price as i do alot of shooting so need to watch the pennys . As for taking long birds ive taken some over 50 yards with 7.5s i also dont find i have more or less pricked birds than i do with 6s . I will not use 32g 6s as the last lot did far to much damage to the birds and at the end i wont to sell them . Really its what ever you feel happy with im happy to shoot 7.5s and no alot that do so will keep using them for my decoying . Over the last 2 weeks ive shot over 700 birds with over 80% being shot with 7.5s shots taken from 15 yards to 45 yards few longer punts aswell . again its what your happy with that counts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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