kyska Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Just had a call from a friend of mine who is looking at getting his FAC granted, he sent his permission letter to get the land cleared, as he was advsied to do so. He got a phonecall yesterday from the firearms bods to be told that his land only just qualifies for fac by two acres...whats that all about? They haven't even been to see it yet! He was then asked what experience he had, so explained he shoots air, and has shot shotgun for a few years and that he shot a friends rifle using the estate rifle exemption....apparently the firearm bod told to him to 'stop right there' and explained forcibly there is no such thing as estate rifles in this country, only in scotland and he should think about what he is saying! Then to be told that hmr is very safe compared to lr, but useless for rabbit as they will 'rip it to pieces'. Its left him pretty bewildered. Wish they'd get their act together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Biggest load of ballcocks I've ever heard. Is he a member of any shooting organisations? If he speaks to them they will help him draft a letter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenhunter Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 :look: And I thought they were bad in Cheshire. Why do they seem to make it up as they go along? I hope your mate gets it sorted!! GH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Just had a call from a friend of mine who is looking at getting his FAC granted, he sent his permission letter to get the land cleared, as he was advsied to do so. He got a phonecall yesterday from the firearms bods to be told that his land only just qualifies for fac by two acres...whats that all about? They haven't even been to see it yet! He was then asked what experience he had, so explained he shoots air, and has shot shotgun for a few years and that he shot a friends rifle using the estate rifle exemption....apparently the firearm bod told to him to 'stop right there' and explained forcibly there is no such thing as estate rifles in this country, only in scotland and he should think about what he is saying! Then to be told that hmr is very safe compared to lr, but useless for rabbit as they will 'rip it to pieces'. Its left him pretty bewildered. Wish they'd get their act together. This sounds rather like an FEO that is new to the job and has very little experience! Let's look at the comments one at a time. 1. So the land only just qualifies for FAC by 2 acres - I have yet to see anything in the HO guidelines where it says that there is any size restriction for land. The only thing that the Firearms bods need to concern themselves about is the suitability of the land for safe shooting with the calibre requested, and how can they decide on that without even seeing the land unless they are going purely by looking at an ordanance survey map? 2. They say that there is no such thing as an "Estate Rifle"! If this is the case then why are most Rifearms Departments throughout England and Wales insisting on getting experience for centrefire rifles to be used for deer shooting by going on "Paid Stalks" and using an "Estate Rifle" before applying for your first centrefire for deer stalking - Are they suggesting that new shooters act illegally in doing so if there is "no such thing as an estate rifle except in Scotland"? 3. So this FEO is saying that the 17HMR is not suitable for shooting rabbits as it will "Rip them to pieces"! This to me says that the FEO has no experience whatsoever as he should know that the 17HMR is one of the most suitable rifles for shooting rabbits with and is capable of taking rabbits at ranges in excess of 150 yards with head shots leaving none or very minimal meat damage! OK, the HMR can do a lot of damage to a rabbit, but so can just about any other rifle if shot placement is not thought about before taking a shot! Whoever made these comments to your friend is talking out of their back side! IT's high time some of these inexperienced FEOs got off their high horses and learned about the firearms laws and stuck to the HO guidelines rather than trying to make up their own rules as they go along. This does make it look like some of them are lacking in training and experience and that they are just guessing at what they think the law ought to say or how they would like to see it! As an example this springs to with mind one of the problems that I had when asking for my variation for the .243 for deer and fox. I gave them a written permission which had deer on which was passed for rifles up to .270 where I was authorised (And in fact asked) to shoot the deer that were there, even though the HO guidelines say you only have to give a permission where there is a "likelyhood of the chosen species being found". They sent a written reply saying that although they acknowledged that there were deer there (After they spoke to the land owner over the phone who confirmed exactly what I had said and given them the written permission) that they could see no justification for the deer that were there being shot! (I still have that letter in my files and sent a copy of it to Ian Clark who found it quite "laughable") Who the hell do they think they are to make decisions like this which is quite obviously well outside of their jurastiction, they ovbiously think that they can just make it up as they go along regardless of what the HO guidelines say! I have full sympathies with your friend and can understand how bewildered he must feel mate! I hope it all works out well for him in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Biggest load of ballcocks I've ever heard. Is he a member of any shooting organisations? If he speaks to them they will help him draft a letter. He's not, Apache, it sounds like the bloke really flew at him for no reason, he's not even put his application in yet! Although its a different area, I rang about the 'estate rifle' thing and my force were more than happy with someone using my rifles on the farm. How can they be so different between forces, madness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Thanks Frenchie, you post explains exactly what I feel. Does the estate rifle thing only apply to deer calibre? The bloke had a target session with a rimfire I think before rabbiting, but if thats the case, how do some of these companys run shooting days in wales? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I can't answer that question about if "Estate Rifles" only applies to deer as I am not sure and I would not want to mislead anyone! My own personal thoughts are that I can't see how it would only apply to deer or why would so many FEOs and Firearms Offices suggest that a good starting point to gain experience would be to join a rifle club or to go out and gain experience (Beforehand) with an "experienced shooter"? By doing so it would "suggest" that it applies to all calibres and types of rifles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel100 Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Kyska, You may already have seen this, it gives an unambiguous answer on one of the main points. It is well worth downloading a copy of Guidance. It is to be updated early next year: Chapter 6 EXEMPTIONS FROM THE REQUIREMENT TO HOLD A CERTIFICATE Borrowed rifles on private premises 6.16 Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a person to borrow a rifle from the occupier of private premises and to use it on those premises in the presence of either the occupier or their servant without holding a firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It should be noted that this gives slightly more flexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle than is permissible with the use of a shot gun as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the borrowed rifle can also be used in the presence of the servant of the occupier. However, the occupier and/or their servant must hold a firearm certificate in respect of the firearm being used, and the borrower, who must be accompanied by the certificate holder (whether it is the occupier or their servant), must comply with the conditions of the certificate. These may include a safekeeping requirement and, in some cases, territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the 1968 Act defines “premises” as including any land. The effect of the provision is to allow a person visiting a private estate to borrow and use a rifle without a certificate. The exemption does not extend to persons under the age of 17 or to other types of firearm. There is no notification required on the loan of a firearm under these circumstances. A borrowed rifle should not be specifically identified as such on a “keeper’s” or “landowner’s” firearm certificate. The term “in the presence of” is not defined in law but is generally interpreted as being within sight and earshot. 6.17 Section 16(2) of the 1988 Act provides for a person borrowing a rifle in accordance with section 16(1) of the 1988 Act to purchase or acquire ammunition for use in the rifle, and to have it in their possession during the period for which the rifle is borrowed, without holding a certificate. The borrower’s possession of the ammunition must comply with the conditions on the certificate of the person in whose presence they are and the amount of ammunition borrowed must not exceed that which the certificate holder is authorised to have in their possession at that time. It should be noted that the borrower may only take possession of the ammunition during the period of the loan of the rifle at which time they will be in the presence of the certificate holder. If the persons selling or handing over the ammunition are not certificate holders, it may be necessary for them to see the certificate to satisfy themselves that the terms of this section have been met and that the amount of ammunition the borrower wishes to acquire is no greater than that which the certificate holder is authorised to possess. However, the details of the transaction need not be recorded on the certificate. Rgds Andy Just had a call from a friend of mine who is looking at getting his FAC granted, he sent his permission letter to get the land cleared, as he was advsied to do so. He got a phonecall yesterday from the firearms bods to be told that his land only just qualifies for fac by two acres...whats that all about? They haven't even been to see it yet! He was then asked what experience he had, so explained he shoots air, and has shot shotgun for a few years and that he shot a friends rifle using the estate rifle exemption....apparently the firearm bod told to him to 'stop right there' and explained forcibly there is no such thing as estate rifles in this country, only in scotland and he should think about what he is saying! Then to be told that hmr is very safe compared to lr, but useless for rabbit as they will 'rip it to pieces'. Its left him pretty bewildered. Wish they'd get their act together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Yea thanks, I've read that and the diluted version on the BASC website, it would appear that the estate rifle can be related to any calibre, not just deer calibre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 If this is true as read i should have no hesitation in sending a letter recorded to the dept chief constable in the area. WHY ARE WE PAYING FOR MORONS WHO CANT EVEN READ THE ACT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO SUPERVISE. Talk about jobs for the boys how the heck did this fella get through a proper inteview i bet it went something like this. "Hi mate do you fancy comming and working for us, you don't have to know anything of the subject coz its a total monopoly and the end customers are too scared of getting on the wrong side of us", "the pay aint good but you basically make your own hours", "bit of a skive realy" They want us to pay more for this? why do the public sector get this sort of free rein to spend our tax money so badly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Its as you read it Kent, the chap involved won't write to them, for the very reason you've stated that getting on the wrong side even before applying worries him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Your pal could refer this uneducated FEO to the BASC web site, indeed this page in particular: http://www.basc.org.uk/en/utilities/document-summary.cfm/docid/DB12FC55-AA2C-4E12-B87529F5D17C4E2F If you want to PM me the constabulary concerned I will see if our lads can do a bit of digging, without dropping your pal in it of course! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 PM'd you David Your pal could refer this uneducated FEO to the BASC web site, indeed this page in particular: http://www.basc.org.uk/en/utilities/document-summary.cfm/docid/DB12FC55-AA2C-4E12-B87529F5D17C4E2F If you want to PM me the constabulary concerned I will see if our lads can do a bit of digging, without dropping your pal in it of course! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishermanpaddy Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Sounds like a grade A plonker out to make a name for himself. With that sort of attitude he will go far. Maybe your mate should ask the FEO to take him out for a days shooting and ask him to demonstrate how a 177 will rip a rabbit to pieces? Thats assuming he can hit it in the head ofcourse He would need to be put in his place pretty soon before he starts believing what he is talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Some forces allegedly train their staff to have a minimum land size in mind for the type of firearm being applied for. This is an area that I fell overly restricted by, but after writing to the FLO the policy was apparently revised and the declined land got passed by an experienced shooting FEO. I say apparently because it's unclear if this was actual force policy - or face saving claimed force policy by/for a trainee FEO who I'm told no longer has the force to destroy licensed shooters pursuits. I too was guided by advice from BASC. Write in to the FLO with a reasonable debate and he may well be surprised. There is a massive grey area regarding estate rifles - and what constitutes 'occupier' as interpreted by who might be affected or who might be considering revoking/prosecuting, putting in writing or simply trying to clarify. I was advised that I cannot allow anyone - including my shooting partner (brother) to shoot my rifle on our joint 'permission' even though we both had an FAC for that class of rifle. I had asked if I could bring a friend or my son with me to shoot my rifle and if my brother and I could try each others rifles as examples, or if I were to 'try before I buy one from someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolhead Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Well technically there is no "estate rifle" in law but the situation is covered by Section 16 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 - Borrowed rifles on private premises. You can borrow "The Occupier's" rifle on his FAC conditions, in his presence. It's there as plain as the nose on your face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyrus Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I'm going to post my application off tomorrow, hope I don't get a response like that!! So the 'estate rifle exemption' only applies to the occupier? If my friend has his fac, has permission on some land which he doesn't own, am I allowed to have a go of his rifle under his supervision or not?? When I speak to the feo I don't want to get anyone in trouble by saying I've had a go of there rifle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) I'm going to post my application off tomorrow, hope I don't get a response like that!! So the 'estate rifle exemption' only applies to the occupier? If my friend has his fac, has permission on some land which he doesn't own, am I allowed to have a go of his rifle under his supervision or not?? When I speak to the feo I don't want to get anyone in trouble by saying I've had a go of there rifle Thats the tricky part - it will depend on that FEO's interpretation of the word "occupier". Some places say the shooter is an occupier some say otherwise. :blink: My first visiting FEO said he knows 'it goes on' but can't condone it, so best to say you go with him and he explains backstops and stuff - with a twitch in your eye. Edited October 10, 2011 by Dave-G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Dear god ,am I glad that I live in Norfolk where the fire arms licensing boys know what they are talking about . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 The obvious question is if the HMR isn't suitable for rabbit what the hell is it suitable for ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW682 Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I'm going to post my application off tomorrow, hope I don't get a response like that!! So the 'estate rifle exemption' only applies to the occupier? ...or a servant of the occupier. See the HO guidance posted by STEEL100 in post 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stefnc Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Im the chap in question who spoke to the feo. upon explaining the pro's and con's of 17hmr and 22lr he said. "17hmr is safer but if you hit a rabbit in the side, will rip it in two, if you hit it in the head, your taking the head clean off. either way you've destroyed the meat" then "22lr is more prone to ricochets, but is perfect for rabbits. the only problem being you cant moderate a 22lr" good advice hey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 You need BASC to intercede on your behalf - maybe a dose of knowledge will bring him round. We all accept that arguments with your FEO are avoided so that it wont 'taint' you, the firearms holder/applicant. A third Party intervention is the best way. My old FEO mentioned a classic case of where an 'estate' rifle had been changed and the new one did not match the certificate - he saw it as his problem to resolve, as the people who shoot were his 'customers' he also liked country people, was one himself. Estate rifles exist (obviously) and the fact this chap with the 'problem' rifle was 'aristocracy' and in Cheshire made no difference whatsoever, he would have done it for me. I liked the man and wish him well in his retirement. Shame his experience was lost and we now have an FEO of very limited 'understanding'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I think every FEO should be made to go out with an open ticket holder for 2 weeks before starting the job. It's obvious that some haven't a clue, lucky for me mine does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyrus Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 ...or a servant of the occupier. See the HO guidance posted by STEEL100 in post 8 Have had a read through, will tread carefully when the time comes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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