Dekers Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Guys People are going off all over the place here, lets stop the debate. It doesn't matter a jot what the FEO likes or not, if you have the appropriate need, and fulfil the legal requirements he is in no position to argue. I fully understand the reluctance of many people to question a FEO, but many need a kick up the **** and straightening out. Do not stand for any bull, and if they refuse something (or suggest they are likely too) then QUESTION THEM, don't just roll over and get shafted! Dekers I do not think its up to you to 'stop the debate', you have your little rant about how you see it but don't wind people up and get the post closed which so often happens. We are sharing our experiences from various policing locations on the posted topic. Facts are that the Gloucester FA dept took fox off my hmr, I questioned it and was told they had a change of policy, do you think it will change things if I ring them tomorrow and say Dekers off PW says yr wrong Come on Redrum, I'm struggling to see what you are on about, what on earth have I said that is likely to get the post closed, chill out and read it again! That is an appropriate and realistic response, and like I say, ........ Do not stand for any bull, and if they refuse something (or suggest they are likely too) then QUESTION THEM, don't just roll over and get shafted! After all, which part of their policy has any force of law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 I understand why you've bolded the 'guidelines' bit and yes, it now doesn't state HMR. However, whilst they may only guidelines, you have to remember that the vast majority of FEOs are just police officers who have worked up through the ranks and made it to a niche role. They will look on it as their bible. If it says (in previous editions) that it's recommended that HMR is not good for foxes, they'll use that when people apply for an HMR for foxes. They have the right to go against this 'guidance' but a lot of them will just want to follow the book as it would mean that their backside was covered if anything went wrong - say for example if an Anti managed to get a video of a shooter who only has HMR for fox on video and he's filmed shooting and injuring a fox which gets away. Does he want the grief that would follow, no. Billy, I see where you are coming from but the HMR was not in the guidelines for fox because, in effect, it was not in existence when the last guidelines were drawn up, so it was simply not considered. There is no reference to it in any previous guidelines before 2002, as it existed even less then! It may or may not be deemed appropriate in the next guidelines but simply because it does not appear, does it mean it should be excluded from that purpose......what mention of the .204 etc is there in the last guidelines, but thats accepted for fox! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Billy, I see where you are coming from but the HMR was not in the guidelines for fox because, in effect, it was not in existence when the last guidelines were drawn up, so it was simply not considered. There is no reference to it in any previous guidelines before 2002, as it existed even less then! It may or may not be deemed appropriate in the next guidelines but simply because it does not appear, does it mean it should be excluded from that purpose......what mention of the .204 etc is there in the last guidelines, but thats accepted for fox! Well in those circumstances then, an FEO without practical firearms experience (God, I can't believe that makes a factual sentence) would err on the side of caution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Come on Redrum, I'm struggling to see what you are on about, what on earth have I said that is likely to get the post closed, chill out and read it again! That is an appropriate and realistic response, and like I say, ........ Do not stand for any bull, and if they refuse something (or suggest they are likely too) then QUESTION THEM, don't just roll over and get shafted! After all, which part of their policy has any force of law? Now theres a change Dekers,seeing what others are on about. Of course the FEO has some say in what happens,you cant just decide on what rifle you have or conditions etc its really out of your hands. Ok it may seem that I like engaging in battle with you, but all this' Do not stand for any bull, don't just roll over and get shafted' advice will not help anybody especially those who are new to firearms. Its far more important to build a trusting relashionship with your local FA dept and FEO,and, from my experience will help you in the long run and prove your good nature. Ok, yes point out Home Office guidelines, offer your experience etc but don't start shouting the law, at the end of the day, even if you belong to an organisation like BASC, with matters like variations and license opening you will find yourself suddenly standing on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 (edited) Well in those circumstances then, an FEO without practical firearms experience (God, I can't believe that makes a factual sentence) would err on the side of caution. Well if i am in a gun club and i want a new pistol. All the FEO has to do is check all my paper work is correct then i get my new pistol. What firearms knowledge dose the FEO have to have to do that. I will say again he doesn't deside weather i get it or not if everything is in order then i get it. Edited November 21, 2011 by ordnance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Sorry but I dont consider .17 HMR a suitable fox caliber it will kill fox but not always humanely .22 center fire much better try for a .222 or .223 just save up a little more Deershooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Guys People are going off all over the place here, lets stop the debate. It doesn't matter a jot what the FEO likes or not, if you have the appropriate need, and fulfil the legal requirements he is in no position to argue. I fully understand the reluctance of many people to question a FEO, but many need a kick up the **** and straightening out. Do not stand for any bull, and if they refuse something (or suggest they are likely too) then QUESTION THEM, don't just roll over and get shafted! Come on Redrum, I'm struggling to see what you are on about, what on earth have I said that is likely to get the post closed, chill out and read it again! That is an appropriate and realistic response, and like I say, ........ Do not stand for any bull, and if they refuse something (or suggest they are likely too) then QUESTION THEM, don't just roll over and get shafted! After all, which part of their policy has any force of law? Now theres a change Dekers,seeing what others are on about. Of course the FEO has some say in what happens, you cant just decide on what rifle you have or conditions etc its really out of your hands. Ok it may seem that I like engaging in battle with you, but all this' Do not stand for any bull, don't just roll over and get shafted' advice will not help anybody especially those who are new to firearms. Its far more important to build a trusting relashionship with your local FA dept and FEO,and, from my experience will help you in the long run and prove your good nature. Ok, yes point out Home Office guidelines, offer your experience etc but don't start shouting the law, at the end of the day, even if you belong to an organisation like BASC, with matters like variations and license opening you will find yourself suddenly standing on your own. Flippen ek Redrum, have you been on the juice tonight, may I once more suggest you read my post again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Sorry but I dont consider .17 HMR a suitable fox caliber it will kill fox but not always humanely .22 center fire much better try for a .222 or .223 just save up a little more Deershooter Deershooter, we are all entitled to an opinion, but this thread is not about whether you or anyone here consider 17HMR humane for fox, it is about what a region may do. You are opening up another whole can of worms with this post, and as you correctly say IT WILL KILL FOX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Redgum, I realise you had some strife with your HMR; you should have argued. Simply why - the guidelines and law state each case should be considered on its own merit, sympathetic to the needs of the shooter. On that basis, it matters not a jot what their policy is - if the condition for fox is on there originallly and nothing changes with you then that condition should stay. Please note - there are ways of arguing things. Don't have to throw toys out of pram - you can be constructive. Knowing and arguing the law is your right; being an #### is not. Firearms departments will in the main respect this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 (edited) I will say again he doesn't deside weather i get it or not if everything is in order then i get it. No, you are wrong. He does decide if you get it or not. It's got nothing to do with you being eligible to own one. He is employed to ensure that things don't get out of hand and that someone doesn't secretly amass a small arsenal. Fair enough, if you've got a good enough reason and you are able to satisfy the FEO/Chief of Police, then yes, you can get another pistol. If he decides you can't have a pistol, he can say no. You might not agree and you're welcome to take it up with his chief, but at the end of the day they will fight you through the courts if they don't want you to have another firearm. I am interested then. Who, apart from the FEOs chief decides that you can or cannot have a firearm? The Chief of police may sign off a firearm to an individual, but they don't want to get their hands dirty with the refusal of firearms, so they give that task to the FEO. Edited November 21, 2011 by Billy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Redgum, I realise you had some strife with your HMR; you should have argued. Simply why - the guidelines and law state each case should be considered on its own merit, sympathetic to the needs of the shooter. On that basis, it matters not a jot what their policy is - if the condition for fox is on there originallly and nothing changes with you then that condition should stay. Please note - there are ways of arguing things. Don't have to throw toys out of pram - you can be constructive. Knowing and arguing the law is your right; being an #### is not. Firearms departments will in the main respect this. As I stated in a previous post the fox condition was removed from hmr condition when the license was in for an increase in centrefire ammunition holding, I called the department the second I recieved my license back and asked why and the response was that the department had some new legislation,I commented that this seemed a little odd as I had not heard of any law change but the FEO was sticking to his version of events. Maybe Gloucester Police dept had made a mistake in the first place in puttin fox on for hmr, after all it was also on the 243. Whatever is said about ones rights and knowing the law, what happens when there isnt any law eg hmr and fox's, fox's not being vermin etc. There is NO law that says hmr is legal or not legal to be used for fox, nor 22lr and what about shotgun pellet size, but if its not down on your license then surely it then becomes a matter of law ( does that make sense ). One thing is for sure and if your department don't like HMR's being used for fox then they will not put it on your license, whether you go out and use it for fox under the cloak of vermin is up to you, and if you do I'm sure you won't be the first along with many thousands of .22lr owners.( as stated in a previous post, there has been no conviction as yet.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Oh to live in your world ordnance ! Simple answer get a .22LR and a shotgun! Job done for rabbits and fox! Shotgun could be section 2 or 1 or a combi gun? Really want to wind the FEO up ask for .22LR, .17HMR multishot shotgun and slug. I bet they'll give you a .22LR and .17HMR if you drop multi shot shotgun and slugs as long as Fox is on your .17HMR BASC offer great advice do join up and ask their firearms team for the proper info to back your claims Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 No, you are wrong. He does decide if you get it or not. It's got nothing to do with you being eligible to own one. He is employed to ensure that things don't get out of hand and that someone doesn't secretly amass a small arsenal. Fair enough, if you've got a good enough reason and you are able to satisfy the FEO/Chief of Police, then yes, you can get another pistol. If he decides you can't have a pistol, he can say no. You might not agree and you're welcome to take it up with his chief, but at the end of the day they will fight you through the courts if they don't want you to have another firearm. I am interested then. Who, apart from the FEOs chief decides that you can or cannot have a firearm? The Chief of police may sign off a firearm to an individual, but they don't want to get their hands dirty with the refusal of firearms, so they give that task to the FEO. Thank goodness you don't listen to Deckers Billy,this is how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradders Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 (edited) I am in Kent and they do allow the 17HMR for Fox. My FAC says 22lr for pest/vermin 17hmr for pest/vermin/fox 223 for pest/vermin/fox The question is not whether the 17HMR is suitable for fox or if the FEO likes/dislikes a certain calibre. The question is can you demonstrate a good need for the 17HMR and can you satisfy the enquiries officer of that need. I had to get my rifles in stages, 22lr, then added the 17hmr and 223. My FEO wanted me to "gain open land experience" with the 22lr before he would grant the 17hmr and 223 even though I had been using shotguns on open land for 25+ years. He suggested I wait 3 months then reapply, i did and got them. Sometimes you have to just play the game. Edited November 22, 2011 by Bradders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Sorry but I dont consider .17 HMR a suitable fox caliber it will kill fox but not always humanely .22 center fire much better try for a .222 or .223 just save up a little more Deershooter I am with you on that one, the most unpredictable gun i ever owned on terminals. Very different behavour at different ranges. If i only ever used it for Rabbits at 100-130yds in conditions of very light predictable wind i would have another any day but as an all round vermin, fox and ground game gun it cannot hold a candle to the Hornet The guidelines start with .17 rem c/fire and .22 Hornet, why not just go for one of them? Your gonna be lucky to find a good used .17 rem for under £300 though you might just manage it with an older Hornet, you cannot realy shoot the barrel out on a .22 hornet so just look for and avoid ones with sighns of DIY "improvement" or total neglect. The Hornet is everything the HMR was origonally billed as and more besides. The only downside is the extra cost of ammo if you don't reload your looking at double or more, reloading makes it very slightly cheaper than the HMR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coneyhunter Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 the condiions on my ticket state i can control vermin with both my 22lr and 17 hmr , its quite open to interpretation but i have been told that the fox is classed as vermin. However i know that North wales firearms dept will NOT grant you a .17hmr for the destruction of foxes but seem to be keen to push the 17 hmr as a replacement for the .22 LR due to riccochet issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 the condiions on my ticket state i can control vermin with both my 22lr and 17 hmr , its quite open to interpretation but i have been told that the fox is classed as vermin. However i know that North wales firearms dept will NOT grant you a .17hmr for the destruction of foxes but seem to be keen to push the 17 hmr as a replacement for the .22 LR due to riccochet issues. From the Homeoffice guidelines to Police The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include destructive species that cause damage to crops or property such as rabbits, mink, stoat, weasel, brown rat, and grey squirrel, as well as some birds such as wood pigeon, rook and crow. Foxes are dealt with in paragraphs 13.23 and 13.24. and...... 13.23 Common rifle cartridges considered suitable for the shooting of foxes range from .17 Remington, and .22 Hornet to .22 -250 and .220 Swift, though there is a wide range of suitable similar calibres commercially available. In windy areas, where heavier bullets aid accurate shooting, or if applicants wish to use one rifle for shooting both deer and foxes they may choose a rifle in 6mm (.243/.244) or 6.5mm (.264) calibre. .22 Rimfire is generally too low-powered to be used against fox except at short range, but may reasonably be permitted for use against such quarry in certain circumstances. However, sole use against fox would not normally be sufficient “good reason” to acquire such a rifle (see paragraph 13.15). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 the condiions on my ticket state i can control vermin with both my 22lr and 17 hmr , its quite open to interpretation but i have been told that the fox is classed as vermin. However i know that North wales firearms dept will NOT grant you a .17hmr for the destruction of foxes but seem to be keen to push the 17 hmr as a replacement for the .22 LR due to riccochet issues. unfotunatly lead by the hype- they still bounce this leads to people pushing the safe limits IMO rather than erring on the side of caution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 (edited) To be quite honest I think that the HMR is running a bit short on power for Foxes. Yes it will do it, I've had one and shot Foxes with it but a lot don't go down well. Some drop on the spot but some isn't the result I'm looking for. I really think the Hornet would do a perfect job for you. It certainly does for me and it sounds like what you want to do is similar to my situation. Coiuld you not perhaps stretch the budget a little to do things right first time? :unsure: Edit... Have a look here Edited November 22, 2011 by njc110381 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 I think I'm going to replace my hmr with a hornet, especially as I really enjoy reloading for other calibres and bar a set of dies just about ready to go. I agree with hmr being underpowered for fox, definatly past 100yds anyway, I originally had fox on my hmr to shoot trapped animals (they would let me have it for .22lr, crazy) and am not fussed about the condition being off, the 243 is an extremely effective long range tool for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Well if i am in a gun club and i want a new pistol. All the FEO has to do is check all my paper work is correct then i get my new pistol. What firearms knowledge dose the FEO have to have to do that. I will say again he doesn't deside weather i get it or not if everything is in order then i get it. Nonsense. Your FEO has the ability to decide whether you get a firearm or not. If he deems you to be unsuitable then you won't get it. If it was as simple as you, or as you make it out to be, we could all have armouries full of guns if we did so wish. La la land comes to mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 (edited) Well if i am in a gun club and i want a new pistol. All the FEO has to do is check all my paper work is correct then i get my new pistol. What firearms knowledge dose the FEO have to have to do that. I will say again he doesn't deside weather i get it or not if everything is in order then i get it. No, you are wrong. He does decide if you get it or not. It's got nothing to do with you being eligible to own one. He is employed to ensure that things don't get out of hand and that someone doesn't secretly amass a small arsenal. Fair enough, if you've got a good enough reason and you are able to satisfy the FEO/Chief of Police, then yes, you can get another pistol. If he decides you can't have a pistol, he can say no. You might not agree and you're welcome to take it up with his chief, but at the end of the day they will fight you through the courts if they don't want you to have another firearm. I am interested then. Who, apart from the FEOs chief decides that you can or cannot have a firearm? The Chief of police may sign off a firearm to an individual, but they don't want to get their hands dirty with the refusal of firearms, so they give that task to the FEO. Thank goodness you don't listen to Deckers Billy,this is how it works. Guys, try reading what ordnance said, you diss him and then agree with him and Redrum just jumps on the bandwagon again without any thought. It goes like this Redrum......I have the FAC and SGC tools I want, (7 on the FAC currently, just approved for the 2 additional I asked for, that will make 9 in total on the FAC) conditioned for ALL purposes on an Open FAC, including Fox on ALL my Rimfires, it seems you don't, so, just who do you think is in the best position to offer advice as to how to get what you want? Will you stop sniping take a chill pill and grow up, what is the matter with you recently?! Edited November 22, 2011 by Dekers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 (edited) Oh to live in your world ordnance ! Simple answer get a .22LR and a shotgun! Job done for rabbits and fox! Shotgun could be section 2 or 1 or a combi gun? Really want to wind the FEO up ask for .22LR, .17HMR multishot shotgun and slug. I bet they'll give you a .22LR and .17HMR if you drop multi shot shotgun and slugs as long as Fox is on your .17HMR BASC offer great advice do join up and ask their firearms team for the proper info to back your claims Not sure what you mean if i apply for a firearm the only contact i have with my FEO is when he comes out to check my gun safe and security if its for a.22 ect then he will check the land is suitable. If its for a handgun then he will take it for a ballistic test. The form goes to the firearms branch and if everything is in order then they the certificate is issued. As for 12 bore slugs they are baned here. Edited November 22, 2011 by ordnance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 (edited) Nonsense. Your FEO has the ability to decide whether you get a firearm or not. If he deems you to be unsuitable then you won't get it. If it was as simple as you, or as you make it out to be, we could all have armouries full of guns if we did so wish. La la land comes to mind You mustn't of read my post i said if everything is in order suitability ect. Its not my FEO that would deside it would be firearms branch Lisnasharragh PSNI. How Manny guns would you need for you to have an armoury of guns 2 -10- 20. ? Edited November 22, 2011 by ordnance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR1960 Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 22.250 ? Think you'd do bloody well to get a half decent 22.250 set up for £300...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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