garygreengrass Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Unfortunately some anglers who didn't renew there subs to the Angling association I chair are getting nasty. It's a long story but what documents can they legally see? I've sent minutes to mtgs and our constitution but they are asking to see membership roles and bank statements for 5 years. What documents are we required by law to disclose and what is the correct way they should be asked for ?? Should we wait for a court order for then or what? So far I've been handing over whatever he asks for but this is all going crazy. I suppose I should say the members thought they could pay their subs late by agreement with the secretary but he died and never documented the agreement so they lapsed and now they think it's unfair. As a treasurer of a angling club myself,I would request all correspondence be done in writing via the club secretary,I would not give any details of club accounts or details of fishing leased cost etc to any none members,I am 99% sure that members details are covered by the data protection act. If there is no documentary evidence of a agreement to pay there subs late then they have not got a leg to stand on unless it can be clearly seen on the bank statements or ticket stubs that they or other members regally paid there subs late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3vert Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I would have thought this would have been pretty straight forward? Have a read through the club constitution get to the part that says subs must be paid on such and such a date and give them a copy of it. When they argue ask them to provide evidence that they had permission from whoever is authorised to extend that date, when they fail to provide it explain they are no longer members and that you will have no further discussions with them on the subject as they have not followed the club constitution. Request a committee meeting and explain what has happen and agree a way forward which will most likely be that they have no grounds to be allowed to pay their subs late when everyone else pays on time and that their membership has now lapsed and invalid. If they keep annoying you tell them to put any further compaints in via their lawyer and pass this straight onto your legal cover via your insurance. Hope this helps. Oh and I should have said I agree fully with greygreengrass and would not give them any paperwork at all, at the end of the day by default they are no longer members! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utectok Posted November 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scolopax Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 i think they need to get a life and get over it. I think they have been stuffed, an opportunity was seen to get them out and replace them with local members, and that opportunity was taken. You should have honoured the previously standing informal agreement on a 'this is the last time' basis then re-circulated to all members that in the future there would be no facility for late payment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Club constitution should have it in black and white yes indeed, and if the constitution does not cover late paid subs and requests for info by non club members / ex members then it's time to have the constitution changed, put the matter forward for the next meetings agenda As a treasurer of a angling club myself,I would request all correspondence be done in writing via the club secretary,I would not give any details of club accounts or details of fishing leased cost etc to any none members,I am 99% sure that members details are covered by the data protection act. If there is no documentary evidence of a agreement to pay there subs late then they have not got a leg to stand on unless it can be clearly seen on the bank statements or ticket stubs that they or other members regally paid there subs late. I agree, defo all correspondence through the secretary, and arrange a committee meeting to discuss the issues, I'd be surprised if the clubs constitution allows for you to make decisions on your own. don't give out any more info! and good luck, in short they should have paid, at the very least as the chair you should have been made aware if late payment arrangements had been made, most clubs offer a cut off point usually one month after due, after which your out ..... regardless! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I think in law it depends if you are a club or something more formal - David Basc knows about this as most shoot syndicates are the same sort of loose association of people who pay fees for shooting. It would be my firm belief that yours is the same and you have little or no obligation to do or give anything. If you are the elected officers of the fishing club then the Chairman can decide almost anything with impunity (provided its not grossly unfair or illegal). The first would be more a moral issue than a legal one. My view would be that you have done enough and should advise the Chairman that you have and decide as the club management that nothing more will be done for anyone on this issue, let alone EX members who have NO legal status within the club. You are worrying over this too much. Just say you have provided enough information for them reasonably to see how the matter has developed and that, if they wished late payment they should have confirmed this to the new secretary, knowing that this was an important issue to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr W Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I think they have been stuffed, an opportunity was seen to get them out and replace them with local members, and that opportunity was taken. You should have honoured the previously standing informal agreement on a 'this is the last time' basis then re-circulated to all members that in the future there would be no facility for late payment. I kind of have to agree, seems like you wanted them out and found a way, not exactly the way I'd want to be treated by a club I was a long standing (assuming here) member of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Normally Paid up ordinary members only, to vote on constitutional matters. Paid up ordinary members to have access to AGM minutes and Annual balance sheet only Bona fide committee members to have access at any time to minutes, correspondence and accounts. Cough up or shut up in other words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Question: Who decides on members? Who sends out the reminder forms for subs? what is the procedure to cease/cancel membership? Should all be in the club documentation. 1.e. none payment of subs after the cut off date results in membership cancellation and will be informed in writing by treasurer/membership secretary etc. It's the old treasurer who died who left the mess but it may be harsh to have sold the memberships the day after subs were due (did they know he had died?) When did this all come to light? AGM? 6 months after subs were due? or 3days after the funeral? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I agree with the above, giving out the membership role could well be a breach of the data protection act. I would flat out refuse to produce any more documents without a court order. That alone could well see the problem go away. To add, I can't see of any reason legally why they would need any of the info there asking for They are probably trying to see if late payment has been normal in the past. If it was, then a precedent may be seen to have been set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 They are probably trying to see if late payment has been normal in the past. If it was, then a precedent may be seen to have been set. That would be completely irrelevant unless it has been formally written into the Rules of the Association. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpowder Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Normally Paid up ordinary members only, to vote on constitutional matters. Paid up ordinary members to have access to AGM minutes and Annual balance sheet only Bona fide committee members to have access at any time to minutes, correspondence and accounts. Cough up or shut up in other words I agree with Mike above. Is it not the case that in Scotland it is illegal to fish for game species without written authority. So if they have not paid and they have fished they would be breaking the law. Also there is a legal difference between and Association and a Club, I am not sure exactly what but would assume that the former are Associates while the latter are Members. Blackpowder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 As they are ex-members, I would advise them that they have no justification for asking for documents relating to the club, unless they provide you with legal proof that this is their right. Turn the onus back on to them. They are making you do all the work, when you have done nothing untoward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 That would be completely irrelevant unless it has been formally written into the Rules of the Association. not to a court Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I dont think that any 'past precedent' can be set in such an informal context and certainly not a legal one. A court would not entertain this as a legal action because an such loose association can do virtually as it likes, barring complete criminal acts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utectok Posted November 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 FYI the subs were due in April the secretary died in July and the issue arrived in September. Unfortunately the last secretary was apt to run things his own way so when he died the new secretary looked at the roll of members and said oh we are full so new memberships and late renewals were stopped. A couple of locals also got caught the same way but grumbled and got on with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 It is the duty of a debtor to seek out his creditor. They are trying to lay a guilt trip on you. Don't have it. They are responsible for their own actions. Don't pander to their demands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 wow 5 months late :o tell em to do one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 FYI the subs were due in April the secretary died in July and the issue arrived in September. April to July is more than enough time to have sent the cheque if it was he died in October and subs were due in Spetember then it could have been reasonable (30 days next pay day etc) if you are full without these chaps do you have proof they had paid previously? or could they have been keeping this going for soem time and had a year or 2 of free fishing??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utectok Posted November 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) "supply us with the documents, minutes for committee meetings from January - July 2011, AGM and EGM. Please could you supply us with the information requested within the next 7 days. We reserve the right to produce this email and the attachments in any court proceedings and we also serve notice on the angling association for costs." An excerpt from the latest email form the lapsed anglers! . mad eh ! Edited November 25, 2011 by utectok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 No-one cab serve notification for costs - that is a courts decision when it has taken and determined a case. No court would allocate costs to a party which did not win a case. Were these people members at the time the meetings took place ? If they were, they would have the minutes, if they do not have them they were not members and have no entitlement to them. Face them down - they have no case to bring this is bulls*** and they know they are trying to get you respond to 'straws in the wind'. There is no legal substance to their e-mail.r Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utectok Posted November 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 Thought so Kes thanks I told them that as far as I know I don't have to submit anything to non members of the association and hoped they could move on and enjoy their fishing in the future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboy1403 Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) you could turn it around on them. it may back fire on you and the club may have to bite the bullet and let them back in but ask them to provide proof in the way of their bank statements that they have paid late every year for the last say 5 years. if they could do this it could be argued in court that it was an accepted practice. late payments would have to be atleast 5 or 6 months late every year for this to hold water. if not they don`t have a leg to stand on. dont give them any member details these are covered by data protection. Edited November 25, 2011 by cowboy1403 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 I think everyone is giving credance to something which does not exist here. Members come and members go. There is an unwritten obligation on members to pay their dues on time and in full or they are not members or can be turfed out by Chairman/Officers of the club at their discretion. This can and does happen without notice and no explanation. There is no 'past precedent' in a 'loose association', such as this club. It is entirely at the discretion of the Officers of the Club or, acting alone and in the best interests of the club and its membership, the Chairman. There is no judge who could argue that a lack of subscriptions and action to correct that is NOT in the best interests of the club and its membership. If this is causing the club problems and Utectok wants to get back on an even keel, you could offer, without obligation or prejudice to consider their request for membership next year, if they with draw from their current stance. If they do not withdraw then their membership cannot be reconsidered in the future, as they have sought to bring the club into disrepute with the fishing community, to the disadvantage of the current membership. One thing though Utectok you need to look in detail at is the rights and obligations of club members of loose association type clubs. There are things which any member can do which become the liability of all. Best to be wise before the event. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utectok Posted November 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Top stuff Kes :thumbs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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