scolopax Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I don't do deer, so - anyone care to answer my question about such a magnificent specimen passing it's prime and possibly going downhill? If it does go downhill does it become less of a trophy because it perhaps wasn't as fit or alert as one in it's prime or is it simply a case of bigger is better even it it could no longer look after itself? Don't really understand the question, but as the animal gets older its antlers after reaching a peak in size and shape start to go back, they get smaller and less impressive year on year, this does not mean that the animal is then on its way out just that it is not the physical specimen that it once was (as indicated by its antler size). Just like in general a 45 year old man is not as physically fit as a 25 year man. A deer past its peak is still capable of breeding and its genes are still as good as they ever were. Welfare starts to come into it when, disease and injury apart, its teeth wear to such an extent that it cannot eat well enough to sustain its own phsical well being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Don't really understand the question, but as the animal gets older its antlers after reaching a peak in size and shape start to go back, they get smaller and less impressive year on year, this does not mean that the animal is then on its way out just that it is not the physical specimen that it once was (as indicated by its antler size). Just like in general a 45 year old man is not as physically fit as a 25 year man. A deer past its peak is still capable of breeding and its genes are still as good as they ever were. Welfare starts to come into it when, disease and injury apart, its teeth wear to such an extent that it cannot eat well enough to sustain its own phsical well being. That answered my question thanks and possibly explains the thought process of the guy who shot it in that if left much longer the antlers may become a lesser trophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie10 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Maybe you know people shooting the living daylights out of hanningfield but we dont on the 1500 acres we have we see muntjac nearly evreytime we go out,and my mate controls and he dont even take one every 3 months,theres plenty of foxea and rabbits although they did have mixy last year and we dont even shoot hares atall so i dont no what part of hanningfield you know about but it certainly aint ours! I said the area, I know someone who was taking them out week in week out, from a place not too far from you. sorry i jumped the gun ! i know that dogs aren't legal quarry it was just a example of your thought process about shooters,anyway people are saying about him being guiding and rollocks theres no way he would of been guided,who guides people for deer in essex really?! He come across that stag and just got greedy and shot it,from what i see of it looked very healthy,I'm sure once deer to go downhill as you state they do get culled,but like yourself i don't know everything to know about deer all i know is that,that stag didn't need to be shot! There's a few but most in North Essex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 to get trophy and brag-why else would you send it into the BASC magazine? That comment could be applied to all PW members who post pictures of their kills on this forum....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Well Said! and on that bombshell shall we leave it here-i know all i need to know and that is that the majority of people on PW (like i thought) do have morals and respect for their quarry keep it up chaps! You mean the ones without a deer calibre or deer condition on their FAC! ATB! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnome of the Woods Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 You mean the ones without a deer calibre or deer condition on their FAC! ATB! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomhw100 Posted January 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 You mean the ones without a deer calibre or deer condition on their FAC! ATB! no not at all...obviously you dont understand, you and gnome of the woods are obviously in the minority though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scolopax Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 explain what you mean Dekers, went right over my head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castletyne Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 no not at all...obviously you dont understand, you and gnome of the woods are obviously in the minority though I think there are as many people who shoot for pleasure as those who say its for conservation or vermin control The number one reason I shoot is because I enjoy it there was probably no good reason for the stag to be shot but there's no good reason for pheasants to be shot either other than pleasure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomhw100 Posted January 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 I think there are as many people who shoot for pleasure as those who say its for conservation or vermin control The number one reason I shoot is because I enjoy it there was probably no good reason for the stag to be shot but there's no good reason for pheasants to be shot either other than pleasure i get your point- though pheasants are in abundance in essex... whereas red deer are most certainly not. They aren't classed as vermin and him shooting it is clearly not conservation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 no not at all...obviously you dont understand, you and gnome of the woods are obviously in the minority though Look, there is no right or wrong here, there are opinions. I understand perfectly what your view is, and accept you have an opinion, it would appear though that you are right and anyone who puts another view is wrong. Ask 1000 deer trophy hunters what they would have done in the circumstances and I will not be in the minority. At what point does shooting a trophy deer become acceptable to you, how many do you need in an area for you to decide there are too many and it is ok? All we know about this is a picture and a couple of lines, we don't even know if the words are the hunters or BASC's for heavens sake, I read it so it must be true, oh dear. There are contradictory views on the number or Reds in the area from this thread, and there is nothing to suggest anything illegal took place here, but you don't like it! Ask 1000 air rifle shooters who are desperate to get a FAC with a deer condition what they think and I suspect most will say this act is appalling, because someone shot the deer before they had a chance to! ATB! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomhw100 Posted January 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) Look, there is no right or wrong here, there are opinions. I understand perfectly what your view is, and accept you have an opinion, it would appear though that you are right and anyone who puts another view is wrong. Ask 1000 deer trophy hunters what they would have done in the circumstances and I will not be in the minority. At what point does shooting a trophy deer become acceptable to you, how many do you need in an area for you to decide there are too many and it is ok? All we know about this is a picture and a couple of lines, we don't even know if the words are the hunters or BASC's for heavens sake, I read it so it must be true, oh dear. There are contradictory views on the number or Reds in the area from this thread, and there is nothing to suggest anything illegal took place here, but you don't like it! Ask 1000 air rifle shooters who are desperate to get a FAC with a deer condition what they think and I suspect most will say this act is appalling, because someone shot the deer before they had a chance to! ATB! finally you accepted that im right thanks i know it must of took alot i can asure you as an airifle shooter myself im not desperate for a deer rifle and i certainly wouldnt of shot it,secondly it was a tame deer and my mate has a video taken on his phone from 40 yds away of 3 red deer (one which is the shot one) just walking past and since my initial post ive found out alot more information about mr jarvis than to back up my argument from a number of people one of which he is a paocher and a complete ####. The letter written in to BASC was an email from him so i would say its pretty relaible. Like you said its just mine and the majority of peoples on here opinion which we are entitled to,you do like to have a windup though dont you! Edited January 14, 2012 by tomhw100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) finally you accepted that im right thanks i know it must of took alot i can asure you as an airifle shooter myself im not desperate for a deer rifle and i certainly wouldnt of shot it,secondly it was a tame deer and my mate has a video taken on his phone from 40 yds away of 3 red deer (one which is the shot one) just walking past and since my initial post ive found out alot more information about mr jarvis than to back up my argument from a number of people one of which he is a paocher and a complete ####. The letter written in to BASC was an email from him so i would say its pretty relaible. Like you said its just mine and the majority of peoples on here opinion which we are entitled to,you do like to have a windup though dont you! No chap, you suggest you are right, I suggested you are entitled to an opinion. And opinionated you are, how about responding to the rest of my post, start with this....At what point does shooting a trophy deer become acceptable to you, how many do you need in an area for you to decide there are too many and it is ok? Now you are resorting to hearsay suggesting he is a poacher and an ####, to back up what arguement, that you didn't want it shot? We all know you didn't want it shot! The Email letter as printed runs to 40 words, how do you know what is his, edited, out of context, whatever? You have decided you don't like it, so everyone who puts another view is wrong. So, when does a trophy hunter become acceptable to you? Edited January 14, 2012 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomhw100 Posted January 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 No chap, you suggest you are right, I suggested you are entitled to an opinion. And opinionated you are, how about responding to the rest of my post, start with this....At what point does shooting a trophy deer become acceptable to you, how many do you need in an area for you to decide there are too many and it is ok? The Email letter as printed runs to 40 words, how do you know what is his, edited, out of context, whatever? You have decided you don't like it, so everyone who puts another view is wrong. So, when does a trophy hunter become acceptable to you? i didnt suggest i'm right at all i was joking and you took the bait Judging by the nature of your posts on this and other forums you also like to assume your right and are also very much opinionated so really your not much different from me . I am aware of how long the letter is and judging by nature of his letter and the rumours, and i agree they are only rumours (although from very reliable sources) i know how he operates. Yes i have decided I dont like it,but havn't casted everyone else as wrong as you would see in some of the posts,i think its become clear to me that you clearly too dont like being challenged either. As for your points: I dont agree with trophy shooting at all,if people want to pursue it it's their choice. i personally wouldnt just shoot a magnificent beast just to have its head on my wall-my opinion. If it had to be shot for conservation purposes thats a different story but quite clearly it wasn,t. If there is an abundance of red deer in our area and he shot it i still wouldnt like it but it would of had to be done. Theres hardly any red deer established in essex so there is no need to control them end of. I dont like the fact that he shot what 100's of people have left just for his own greed. I dont think killing animals for trophies is right. Dont get me wrong i like taking pictures of my kills but i know theyve been killed for a reason-namely vermin control and game for the pot. We are never going to agree on this are we! so we will leave it at that i dont like trophy hunters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) i didnt suggest i'm right at all i was joking and you took the bait Judging by the nature of your posts on this and other forums you also like to assume your right and are also very much opinionated so really your not much different from me . I am aware of how long the letter is and judging by nature of his letter and the rumours, and i agree they are only rumours (although from very reliable sources) i know how he operates. Yes i have decided I dont like it,but havn't casted everyone else as wrong as you would see in some of the posts,i think its become clear to me that you clearly too dont like being challenged either. As for your points: I dont agree with trophy shooting at all,if people want to pursue it it's their choice. i personally wouldnt just shoot a magnificent beast just to have its head on my wall-my opinion. If it had to be shot for conservation purposes thats a different story but quite clearly it wasn,t. If there is an abundance of red deer in our area and he shot it i still wouldnt like it but it would of had to be done. Theres hardly any red deer established in essex so there is no need to control them end of. I dont like the fact that he shot what 100's of people have left just for his own greed. I dont think killing animals for trophies is right. Dont get me wrong i like taking pictures of my kills but i know theyve been killed for a reason-namely vermin control and game for the pot. We are never going to agree on this are we! so we will leave it at that i dont like trophy hunters. Ha Ha! Now we have got somewhere, it wouldn't have mattered what this guy had done, or anyone else for that matter, YOU don't agree with trophy hunting. As I said before, your opinion! Allow others their opinion then! Edited January 14, 2012 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomhw100 Posted January 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) Ha Ha! Now we have got somewhere, it wouldn't have mattered what this guy had done, or anyone else for that matter, YOU don't agree with trophy hunting. As I said before, your opinion! Allow others their opinion then! ok dekers it probably would of saved 7 pages of posts I DONT AGREE WITH TROPHY HUNTERS OR THE RED STAG BEING SHOT! everyone is entitled to there opinion! can we agree on one thing though- we are both awkward b*******s Thanks for a wonderfull debate and making me get through more fags today than i have all week! ATB Edited January 14, 2012 by tomhw100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 ok dekers it probably would of saved 7 pages of posts I DONT AGREE WITH TROPHY HUNTERS OR THE RED STAG BEING SHOT! everyone is entitled to there opinion! can we agree on one thing though- we are both awkward b*******s Thanks for a wonderfull debate and making me get through more fags today than i have all week! ATB ATB! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth Stalker Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 I'm with you on this Tom Stand your ground Dekers is a cock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Ditto that, he's trolling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scolopax Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Always has always will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 I'm with you on this Tom Stand your ground Dekers is a cock You miss the point. All he's said is there is another opinion, and that both sides should be put. Trust me, he's not a trophy hunter. Simple fact is there IS another side to this, and it IS more likely you disagree with this shooting if you've never shot deer. It was legal, and above board. Morally? Well that's the debate. However, in a thread like this both sides do need to be put, which is all that's happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Morally? Well that's the debate. Which I think is the issue here. On our permissions the land next to us has Red Deer, bought in about 4-5yrs ago, entertainment for the kids at Xmas, Santa's Reindeer, rides/feed them..etc They got out a couple of years ago, at least 6 of them, & were on our permissions 99% of the time they were free. You could drive up to them, semi tame. Me & my shooting bud could have wiped the herd out, (legally), sat watching them through the scope many a time. One of them a Big Stag, followed by a younger one, the rest Hinds. One of them even dropped a calf while Awol. But we didn't.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Yes but B J everyone knows you and G H are just a pair of old softies at heart and if you had shot them Santa could not have come... :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Now I'm even more confused Tom, you admit you like to take pictures of what you shoot - which is trophy keeping of a kill unless you are keeping some kind of documentry library of shot dead animals. After equiping yourself with hunting gear, hunting down and taking carefull and deliberate aim at your chosen live quarry - which might be in its prime - don't you enjoy shooting what you killed just because you could? I have to say I still don't get this thread mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scolopax Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I have to say I still don't get this thread mate. not even after reading my blackgrouse analogy ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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