.177 or .22

[Dekers]

Thats an interesting theory, however when given thought it soon is apparent it is not that simple.

 

The first thing to remember is nothing is really killed by impact force. It is killed via bleeding Ha Ha, so if I cut off your head but put a bandage on it to stop it bleeding you will be fine! , it can be internally causing a major organ failure or it can be via the animal draining out. An impact force is only part of the mechanism we are using in tnis case to achieve bleeding.

 

Now lets look at the 22, folks believe that because of it's weight and size it offers more of a force on the target and as you say a 177 can pass through.

 

Put differently, by default the 177 by passing through has created two bleeding out holes. Large game shooters always prefere a bullet that gives to holes!

 

Most 22 pellets stay in the quarry so that actually means the pellet has slowed down to zero fps in a couple of inch to say four inch. As that is the case some of those disturbed tissues have been able to move around the passing pellet and avoid being ruptured and any ruptured vessels that do occure have only the one hole to drain out of! Short of mashing brain and or the nervous system of which once again the 177 is more than capable of too!

 

Once again I say both work.

 

I only go for heads and necks nowadays anyway. I can sometimes(!)reliably do that to 40+yds with a good 177. With a 22 I don't like doing the same beyond 30yds (12ft/lb).

 

Best wishes.

 

Underdog.

 

Underdog, I am not known for my tack, but I will try, that is *******t!

 

Where on earth did you read that rubbish!

Edited January 26, 2012 by Dekers

[FalconFN]

Dekers, I'm with you 100% on your last 2 posts.

 

In my humble opinion, you shouldn't get too hung up on what calibre to use, just learn to use what you have and you won't go far wrong.

[bullet boy]

Whatever pellet you use whether it's the .177,.20,.22 or .25, if you hit any airgun quarry in the vital kill zone it's gonna do the job!

This debate has rambled on for years and will continue to do so.

As I said I prefer the .177 in non FAC as it will do the job well for me on my main quarry which is Crows,Pigeons,Squirrels and Rabbits!

ATB.

[Underdog]

To suggest ft lb has no bearing on killing ability is VERY flawed! Perhaps you would like to stand in front of my .308 at 2,800ft lb and tell me that!

 

The only reason a .177 may produce tighter groups is because it is .177, so a 1 hole group is .177", the best a .22 can do is .22". That's why the .177 is commonly used for target, it's easier to get inside the rings, it isn't more accurate.

 

The .22 holds its energy better and will commonly deliver that energy better, as it is likely to stay in the quarry more often than a .177, the difference can be marginal, and is based on size AND weight, eg. that's why a .25 is an excellent ratting gun and a .177 would not be most peoples first choice!

 

Yes, a .177 will commonly fly faster and flatter and penetrate further, that's why it is generally suggested it is easier to shoot! But a .22 punches a Bigger hole and will commonly deliver all its energy!

 

The .177/.22 debate will go on forever, there are pluses and minuses to each!

 

Based on 12ft lb air rifles!

 

ATB!

I decline your offer to stand in front of your 308 Dickers. I find however your psychotic offer offensive. The ft/lbs from your 308 still would not kill me. No more than E=mc2 actually produces any energy what so ever.

 

If ever we have the misfortune to meet, introduce your self with your same offer and I will knock your ******* head off.

 

U.

[M.I.A]

Now Now Ladys

[Beretta28g]

.22 for killing

.177 for paper punching

 

 

Simples

[Underdog]

Now Now Ladys

Hang on Mr, this guy just suggested cutting my head off and shooting me with his 308. You can call me a lady if you wish, thats not serious but any **** who talks like that to me gets it and it won't be lady like, end of.

 

I have engaged in civil conversation, threatened no one and not been abusive, that is till Dickers came along.

 

U.

[M.I.A]

im sure it was only said in jest

 

Anyway, as ive said before either is perfect for the job

 

Just get lots of practice in and become one with your rifle

[Beretta28g]

Beware the man with one rifle as he probably knows how to use it.

[bullet boy]

Let's get this thread properly back on track the Op asked advice - ".177 or .22"!

Cmon lads.

[durbsguy]

A rabbit wouldn't know the difference of a .177 or .22 if shot in the head.

[Catweazle]

Dekers, your point about tighter groups is wrong. Groups are measured centre to centre so calibre has no effect on the measurement.

 

The real proof is in the shooting, 0.177 is easier to shoot due to flatter trajectory which has two benefits;

 

1) Range estimation becomes less critical

 

2) Rifle cant has less affect on POI.

 

If more proof is needed, go to any HFT competition where you will see .22 in their own class as they are uncompetitive against the .177 rifles . Air rifles have paltry power levels, as Underdog has written, the way they kill is more akin to a stab wound than a gunshot. A .22 will make a larger hole, I agree, but a stab wound in the wrong place is ineffective.

 

There is no legal quarry that won't be killed quickly by either size 12ft/lb pellet in the correct place. The .177 pellet is easier to put in the correct place.

[Dekers]

I'm not sure what is happening here, you are actually confirming much of what I have said, just a little clarification on the target work

Dekers, your point about tighter groups is wrong. Groups are measured centre to centre so calibre has no effect on the measurement.

 

I didn't say groups, I said they were easier to get inside the circles, so a .22 will alway print a bigger hole, therefore, if the impact centres are the same at .178" from the circle then a .177 is clear of it but a .22 will break the circle and drop a point using the same target, the shots were identical!

The real proof is in the shooting, 0.177 is easier to shoot due to flatter trajectory which has two benefits; Thats what I said!

 

1) Range estimation becomes less critical

 

2) Rifle cant has less affect on POI.

 

If more proof is needed, go to any HFT competition where you will see .22 in their own class as they are uncompetitive against the .177 rifles . I have already suggested/implied that, but that is not energy transfer to live quarry!! Air rifles have paltry power levels, as Underdog has written, the way they kill is more akin to a stab wound than a gunshot. I think you are referring to shock waves commonly caused by energy transfer from higher velocity bullets, whichever way you look at it a pellet causes damage through transferring energy, put simply, the more energy (we tend to call it ft lb) it imparts the more damage it will do! If I just dropped two pellets on you they would do little or no damage, it is the energy we give to those pellets and transfer to the quarry that injures. A pellet is a useless inert object until we give it energy to carry/impart! A .22 will make a larger hole, I agree, but a stab wound in the wrong place is ineffective.

 

There is no legal quarry that won't be killed quickly by either size 12ft/lb pellet in the correct place. The .177 pellet is easier to put in the correct place. I have not disputed that

 

Edited January 27, 2012 by Dekers

[Dekers]

Hang on Mr, this guy just suggested cutting my head off and shooting me with his 308. You can call me a lady if you wish, thats not serious but any **** who talks like that to me gets it and it won't be lady like, end of.

 

I have engaged in civil conversation, threatened no one and not been abusive, that is till Dickers came along.

 

U.

 

Underdog, you really need to take a Chill pill, I outlined crazy examples, I didn't for one second suggest I was going to shoot you or cut your head off. Your misses put you on rations or something?

 

You are not killed by the pellet/bullet, you are killed by the energy that projectile imparts, we happen to call that energy ft lb on the whole and it is the damage the energy imparts that causes the problem.

 

A .22 or .177 or my .308 will cause little or no injury if I simply dropped it on you, it is the force we put into the projectile that harms/kills you. In the case of a CF round that energy transfers as direct damage from the projectile and a shock wave which commonly turns the bullet track to jelly.

 

That damage is dramatically less with a 12ft lb air rifle, but it is still the energy that the pellet imparts that kills rabbits/whatever, and in simple terms as a direct comparison with 2 or more pellets/bullets hitting an identical spot, the one that transfers more energy/ft lb is the one that will do most damage!

 

Just the same, as I have already said, when you talk about a 12ft lb rifle the difference in energy carried by a .22 and .177 is slight.

 

Simple!

[Catweazle]

I didn't say groups, I said they were easier to get inside the circles,

 

Err, yes you did;

 

The only reason a .177 may produce tighter groups is because it is .177, so a 1 hole group is .177", the best a .22 can do is .22".

 

 

But I think we're in agreement, 0.177 is easier to use.

[Dekers]

Err, yes you did;

 

Ok, I accept the point and the way I put it could be debated, but you edited it, I was talking a ONE hole group for illustration, not a variable group, the passage read!

 

The only reason a .177 may produce tighter groups is because it is .177, so a 1 hole group is .177", the best a .22 can do is .22". That's why the .177 is commonly used for target, it's easier to get inside the rings, it isn't more accurate.

 

 

 

But I think we're in agreement, 0.177 is easier to use.

 

No arguement, never has been, but that doesn't make it better, more effective as a killing machine or more accurate, etc., etc!

 

 

[secretagentmole]

Just as long as you use the right pellet!

[NewbieShot]

By the way I'd like to clarify that this is for hunting rather then targets!

 

I'm aware a .177 is the preferred option for targetting due to it's smaller size but what I'm really after is the stopping power of the two pellets, obviously I would be aiming for the specific areas necessary for a clean kill but is a .22 with a greater impact size the preferred orf the .177 with a more guaranteed through and through more effective??

 

Thanks again for the info, but let's keep the death threats down yeh? ;)

[Dekers]

By the way I'd like to clarify that this is for hunting rather then targets!

 

I'm aware a .177 is the preferred option for targetting due to it's smaller size but what I'm really after is the stopping power of the two pellets, obviously I would be aiming for the specific areas necessary for a clean kill but is a .22 with a greater impact size the preferred orf the .177 with a more guaranteed through and through more effective??

 

Thanks again for the info, but let's keep the death threats down yeh? ;)

 

This could run and run, actually it has, for many many years....

 

VERY Simply, the .22 will tend to impart more energy, just a bit, and it therefore has more stopping power, just a bit.

 

The .177 flies flatter so it is easier to deliver that pellet to the desired point, you do not have to be as precise with your ranging as with a .22. They are both as accurate (repeatable) as each other, but you need to know your .22 and distances better to deliver the shot, so you decide!

 

You have already heard many views and there is contention over which is best, and trust me, that will not be resolved in this thread!

 

[Catweazle]

By the way I'd like to clarify that this is for hunting rather then targets!

 

I'm aware a .177 is the preferred option for targetting due to it's smaller size but what I'm really after is the stopping power of the two pellets, obviously I would be aiming for the specific areas necessary for a clean kill but is a .22 with a greater impact size the preferred orf the .177 with a more guaranteed through and through more effective??

 

Thanks again for the info, but let's keep the death threats down yeh? ;)

 

Don't worry about the comedy death threats, and ignore my nitpicking on Deckers ( he's used to it, it's harmless fun).

 

Concentrate on the fact that you need to hit the killzone. From a PCP rifle 0.177 is most definitely easier to use. From a spring rifle the situation is a little different, although the 0.177 calibre still shoots flatter some spring rifles actually shoot sweeter* in .22 calibre. Personally I think the better trajectory of the 0.177 outweighs the slightly sweeter shooting of a springer in 0.22. Some will disagree, I guess it depends on which model of springer you are using.

 

* By "sweeter" I mean that some springers recoil "softer", and are less sensitive to less-than-perfect hold. Some just "twang" less. It's really a perception thing, the recoil can feel softer and less mechanical.

[Catweazle]

VERY Simply, the .22 will tend to impart more energy, just a bit, and it therefore has more stopping power, just a bit.

 

The .177 flies flatter so it is easier to deliver that pellet to the desired point, you do not have to be as precise with your ranging as with a .22. They are both as accurate (repeatable) as each other, but you need to know your .22 and distances better to deliver the shot, so you decide!

 

You have already heard many views and there is contention over which is best, and trust me, that will not be resolved in this thread!

 

 

Exactly.

[Underdog]

Well I don't give a rats *** which has more stopping power, not now any way!

 

This afternoon I got my hands on a good 22 and my HW95 in 177 and shot the two side by side.

 

I stick to my earlier posts, I was shooting sub 2"pebbles in the turf to 40+yards nearly one after the other. With the 22 past 30yds it was too hard to get the same amount of hits in so all that "knock down power" is of no use or put another way all that extra "energy" is useless The 22 by the way can almost lay pellet after pellet on top of each other at 25yards shooting off hand! I shoot it better than it's owner!!

 

With my puny little 177 with little "knock down power" I can suck the brains out of a rabbit beyond 40yards.

 

Those that put power first can stick to their 22, after 33years of trying I don't need to read about it.

 

Your call.

 

U.

[Alycidon]

177 is easier to shoot accurately as the trajectory is flatter. I used to kill rabbits to about 45 yards with mine but the vast majority were under 30 yards. Head shots only though.

 

A

[FalconFN]

Crikey, you have to be careful how you word your posts, the slightest mistake gets pounced upon. Dekers is right in what he says, and semantic nit-picking won't change that, death is caused by trauma and not, ad stated earlier, by bleeding, .177 is not more accurate than .22 but you get less drop. There were no death threats but light hearted and flippant remarks.

 

AND either calibre will do. I prefer 177 others dont, either way you have to know your gun.

Edited January 28, 2012 by FalconFN

[Ratsmasher]

IMO .22 for sub 15 yards because at that sort of range trajectory doesntreally make a difference and the effect of a .22 holow point or wadcutter at that range is frightening but as soon as you start pushing the ranges out to rabbit ranges .177 all the way - flatter shooting, higher velocity, cheaper pellets works for me

TBH it doesnt reaaly matter what you use though as long as you can shoot to the appropriate degree of accuracy with it a rabbit shot with .177 in the brain is no less dead then the one with a .25 up there

atb Ratty

Edited January 28, 2012 by Ratsmasher