vito Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Hi all, Feel somewhat stupid asking a question that is most likely completely obvious to 99% of you on here - but I'm new and I'm learning, so go easy ;D Basically I've been trying to soak up as much info as I can about ballistics, and I found and watched the ballistics special (Norma episode) on Fieldsports TV. On it the presenter mentioned you can't shoot Roe with a .223 in the UK... can someone please explain (in basic terminology please!) why this is? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest topshot_2k Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Hi all, Feel somewhat stupid asking a question that is most likely completely obvious to 99% of you on here - but I'm new and I'm learning, so go easy ;D Basically I've been trying to soak up as much info as I can about ballistics, and I found and watched the ballistics special (Norma episode) on Fieldsports TV. On it the presenter mentioned you can't shoot Roe with a .223 in the UK... can someone please explain (in basic terminology please!) why this is? Thanks Hi This is correct. England and Wales For Muntjac and Chinese Water deer only- a rifle with a minimum calibre of not less than .220 inches and muzzle energy of not less than 1000 foot pounds and a bullet weight of not less than 50 grains may be used. For all deer of any species - a minimum calibre of .240 and minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 foot pounds is the legal requirement. Scotland is different, as long as you meet the minimum bullet weight, velocity and energy there is no calibre limit as such Edited February 16, 2012 by topshot_2k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 nothing to do with ballistics. a .223 is still going to kill a roe @100 yards the same as a .243. ****** shoot them with .22s and sub sonics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest topshot_2k Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) nothing to do with ballistics. a .223 is still going to kill a roe @100 yards the same as a .243. ****** shoot them with .22s and sub sonics Indeed, but the law states otherwise Edited February 16, 2012 by topshot_2k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Minimum legal calibre for Deer above CWD and Muntjac is .240 and energy of 1700ft-lbs. The .223 doesn't meet that requirement in either way. In Scotland you can shoot Roe with a minimum of 1000ft-lbs and 50gr bullet and the .223 kills Roe fine. But then the law is an *** as they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Indeed, but the law states otherwise i know i know but like njc said, the law is an ***. who decided this law anyway??? and on what evidence???. i carnt think of any situation were a .223 would not cleanly kill the roe were a .243 would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest topshot_2k Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 i know i know but like njc said, the law is an ***. who decided this law anyway??? and on what evidence???. i carnt think of any situation were a .223 would not cleanly kill the roe were a .243 would. some clown in a suit in the city probably. Be good if it did change as i have a .223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 some clown in a suit in the city probably. Be good if it did change as i have a .223 probaly the same clown who decided my village should be a 20mph zone....... depending if you come into the village from east or west :lol: some bright spark only put 20mph signs facing one way and a flashing sign. so 20mph from the east and 30mph from the west :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest topshot_2k Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 probaly the same clown who decided my village should be a 20mph zone....... depending if you come into the village from east or west :lol: some bright spark only put 20mph signs facing one way and a flashing sign. so 20mph from the east and 30mph from the west :lol: nothing surprises me in this country anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy Holt Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Hi That is NOT correct. England and Wales only For Muntjac and Chinese Water deer only- a rifle with a minimum calibre of not less than .220 inches and muzzle energy of not less than 1000 foot pounds and a bullet weight of not less than 50 grains may be used. For all deer of any species - a minimum calibre of .240 and minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 foot pounds is the legal requirement. Scotland is different, as long as you meet the minimum bullet weight, velocity and energy there is no calibre limit as such Fixed it for you as he did say the UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Look at the Deer Act, a very good and informative bit of legislation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Hi all, Feel somewhat stupid asking a question that is most likely completely obvious to 99% of you on here - but I'm new and I'm learning, so go easy ;D Basically I've been trying to soak up as much info as I can about ballistics, and I found and watched the ballistics special (Norma episode) on Fieldsports TV. On it the presenter mentioned you can't shoot Roe with a .223 in the UK... can someone please explain (in basic terminology please!) why this is? Thanks Only in Scotland! limited to cwd and munties here in England and wales Before the Deer act that set calibre and energy minimum limits many used .22 Hornet (including the world's leading expert on Roe Richard Prior). The law is the Law and we must obey it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR1960 Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 nothing to do with ballistics. a .223 is still going to kill a roe @100 yards the same as a .243. ****** shoot them with .22s and sub sonics ....and catapaults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 As above, I use my triple on Roe and it kills fine. I believe Jan Andrews (Female stalker in south/west of England) said, in her opinion, it wasn`t good enough for Roe, which in my opinion is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 As above, I use my triple on Roe and it kills fine. I believe Jan Andrews (Female stalker in south/west of England) said, in her opinion, it wasn`t good enough for Roe, which in my opinion is wrong. I think a lot of statements are out of context. If you can just scrape though the DC1 shooting test and remember some need to come back another day it isn't enough i feel. In the hands of a very experianced stalker and cometant shot, who knows his real world limitations far smaller than .223 is enough gun- But should we allow any and all? hence the legislation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 i know i know but like njc said, the law is an ***. who decided this law anyway??? and on what evidence???. i carnt think of any situation were a .223 would not cleanly kill the roe were a .243 would. I have personally witnessed a .222 rem fired at the shoulder of a roe at very short range were the varmint bullet broke up without entering the cavity. With better bullet selection like a Sako factory gamehead i am sure it would get clean through. "In the right hands" is difficult to legislate for, so for the good of the Deer we have the act Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 I have personally witnessed a .222 rem fired at the shoulder of a roe at very short range were the varmint bullet broke up without entering the cavity. With better bullet selection like a Sako factory gamehead i am sure it would get clean through. "In the right hands" is difficult to legislate for, so for the good of the Deer we have the act yes but the key word there is VARMINT, a varmint bullet is designed to expand rapidly on impact. like you say bullet choice is important. im sure a softnose or hollow point would of dropped the deer to the ground. also were has my post gone pointing out the op is a lady, when someone got it wrong, or are we trying to hide the female members. explanation please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 yes but the key word there is VARMINT, a varmint bullet is designed to expand rapidly on impact. like you say bullet choice is important. im sure a softnose or hollow point would of dropped the deer to the ground. also were has my post gone pointing out the op is a lady, when someone got it wrong, or are we trying to hide the female members. explanation please. Who cares if she is it makes no difference. Yes it is the key word and it aint that easy to get suitable .22 ammo specifically for Deer without producing your own, this has an important bearing factor on why we have this act. I know a few guys in Scotland who are very competant and effective with thier .22 c/fires but they all know were and most importantly when to take the shot or let it pass. Without being rude to any individual i have also seen some awfull shooting from the less experianced shooter, far better to give them something thats harder to mess things up with IMO. The worst ever was a personal friend who has a fair few shooting comps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vito Posted February 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thanks all - interesting. So basically there's no readily accepted fact behind this legislation? I was curious as to the reasons behind the legalities... I will take a look at the Deer Act, thanks for the suggestion - can't hurt. Also am somewhat curious as to why my gender is cropping up in conversation about calibre, cockercas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Thanks all - interesting. So basically there's no readily accepted fact behind this legislation? I was curious as to the reasons behind the legalities... I will take a look at the Deer Act, thanks for the suggestion - can't hurt. Also am somewhat curious as to why my gender is cropping up in conversation about calibre, cockercas! Probably because female members on this site are few and far between. Makes a nice change from all us hairy ***** blokes on here Edited February 17, 2012 by Luckyshot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Probably because female members on this site are few and far between And they remain so if they aren't allowed to post away without reference to their gender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Probably because female members on this site are few and far between. Makes a nice change from all us hairy ***** blokes on here Yeah, that's PW for you. Got to the new members section and have a read. You'll get "Hi guy's I'm a 25 year old male from....." getting maybe half a dozen welcomes and then a "Hey guys, I'm a 25 year old blonde housewife from....." with about fifteen pages to follow. I guess that's men for you?! I was led to believe that the law was kept at .240 to stop all the Fox shooters from ending up with a Deer calibre over night. The powers that be (read snobs) didn't like that idea one bit! I can think of more than a couple of occasions when I've been forced to take a Roe with my Hornet for humane reasons and it's not failed me yet. Knowing shot placement is vital but hit the vitals and you'll drop it like a hot rock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thanks all - interesting. So basically there's no readily accepted fact behind this legislation? I was curious as to the reasons behind the legalities... I will take a look at the Deer Act, thanks for the suggestion - can't hurt. Also am somewhat curious as to why my gender is cropping up in conversation about calibre, cockercas! i gay... shes no use to me. :lol: i only pointed it out because someone put 'he asked'. i was mearly pointing out that the op is a she and should not be referred to as he. btw.... im not homosexual and woman are far more trouble than there worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 One has to go back to the reasons behind the original Deer Act. In the years before the act, particularly as far as roe were concerned, there was much concern amongst the stalking fraternity, mainly in England, that the welfare of deer was compromised by indiscriminate shooting, poaching and deer drives in forestry blocks. After much lobbying by stalking enthusiasts and following consultation the Deer Act was enacted in a bid to safeguard, formalise and further the welfare of all deer species in England. As part of this process it was decided that the minimum caliber to achieve these welfare standards would be .240. It must also be remembered that at this time the small species were far less widespread then they have become in the past 20 years and that most stalkers already possessed a larger caliber rifle. Having witnessed deer drives in the 60's and rough shooters taking pot shots at roe whilst walking up the odd pheasant, finding roe on three legs having been shot with a .22rf and skinning out Red's with 4/5 .22rf bullets in them I can honestly say that the Deer Act was one of the finest bits of legislation ever enacted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest topshot_2k Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 One has to go back to the reasons behind the original Deer Act. In the years before the act, particularly as far as roe were concerned, there was much concern amongst the stalking fraternity, mainly in England, that the welfare of deer was compromised by indiscriminate shooting, poaching and deer drives in forestry blocks. After much lobbying by stalking enthusiasts and following consultation the Deer Act was enacted in a bid to safeguard, formalise and further the welfare of all deer species in England. As part of this process it was decided that the minimum caliber to achieve these welfare standards would be .240. It must also be remembered that at this time the small species were far less widespread then they have become in the past 20 years and that most stalkers already possessed a larger caliber rifle. Having witnessed deer drives in the 60's and rough shooters taking pot shots at roe whilst walking up the odd pheasant, finding roe on three legs having been shot with a .22rf and skinning out Red's with 4/5 .22rf bullets in them I can honestly say that the Deer Act was one of the finest bits of legislation ever enacted. really, well it hasn't stopped poachers etc using small calibres/crossbows on them has it? A poor shot with a .243 is worse than a well placed .223 Its a law that needs amending imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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