CharlieT Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 By your wife knowing she has in effect got access to your guns and unless they are on her sgc also then you have broken the law...... Which could result in 5 years minimum My wife knows that I have a set lodged, in a sealed envelope, with my solicitor. Does that mean that my wife, solicitor and I can expect a free holiday on Dartmoor at your expense. I think not. Oh and by the way, it's not an offence which is subject to the 5 year tariff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 My wife knows that I have a set lodged, in a sealed envelope, with my solicitor. Does that mean that my wife, solicitor and I can expect a free holiday on Dartmoor at your expense. I think not. Oh and by the way, it's not an offence which is subject to the 5 year tariff. Indeed Knowing where somethign is and it being accessible are different. FEO speaking to Mrs Jones Mrs Jones where are your husbands keys? In his safe. Where is that? In his study Can you you show me? Oh no, no one is allowed in his study Mr FEO. On the G4S bit, I'm not sure really how do they expect to save moeny on dept where most of the work is done by civilian staff anyway and they can't cut salaries? Only one way is to do it more cost effectively.... How? no home visits? Online applications? NO Land checks? Increase charges (oh wait they cant do that, or can they?) Revoke huge numbers of certs to reduce workload? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bi9johnny Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 My wife knows that I have a set lodged, in a sealed envelope, with my solicitor. Does that mean that my wife, solicitor and I can expect a free holiday on Dartmoor at your expense. I think not. Oh and by the way, it's not an offence which is subject to the 5 year tariff. have just ran this past a feo and ours says yes in effect she has access if she knows where you hide the key..... obviously if your key is in another safe like mine and she doesn't have access to that safe it is ok...does the people in the solicitors know what the keys in your envelope are for... i would hope not regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 have just ran this past a feo and ours says yes in effect she has access if she knows where you hide the key..... obviously if your key is in another safe like mine and she doesn't have access to that safe it is ok...does the people in the solicitors know what the keys in your envelope are for... i would hope not regards Interesting I would guess the letter on solicitors is only to be opened in the event of death? SO if they don't what the keys are for its fine, if they do and know where you keep them its fine? Lot of none sense about keys IMO its a domestic situation there are only so many hiding places so put them in another safe then what do you do with that key? and spare? put that in another safe? Just because you don't tell someone "these are my safe keys and i am putting them here" doesn't mean they don't know what they are or where. I am sure if anyone spent long enough searching they would find them (The police do this all the time go looking for stuff people have "hidden" and they know the likely places.....) As cabinets are designed to deter opportunist thieves not determined and tooled up ones there is a limit to what can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) By your wife knowing she has in effect got access to your guns and unless they are on her sgc also then you have broken the law...... Which could result in 5 years minimum How? She has access to the main safe but not the keysafe secured in it as the number is different. That's why it's there. If she needs my key she asks for it - generally to put things away while I do something else. But then I'm there so she is supervised. I'd love for my mrs to have a certificate to cover all of my guns. That way she could drive me home if I got drunk after a shoot day. Not that I do, but it would be handy. It's all a bit silly really, my other half is better trusted with my guns than I am. She knows how to check they're empty before she handles them and would never do anything daft with them. EDIT... Most importantly she knows that if anyone asks, she knows nothing! Edited February 24, 2012 by njc110381 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 EDIT... Most importantly she knows that if anyone asks, she knows nothing! :yes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 I have been through the whole keys hidden in the event of death and the best option is to have a combination safe which contains the spare keys, this combination is given to your solicitor who can then inform a local RFD in the event of death/incapacity - they would then hold them for you spouse as part of your estate. That way no one has your keys but has only the combination for a safe.... Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 I recon if I die I don't care. There's a 120cc disk cutter in the garage that can have a 2mm thick safe open in seconds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Would they be happy with one of these next to the cabinet? http://www.keysafe.co.uk/police_approved_supra_c500_keysafe_002049 Still keep mine where i keep them but would pee the burglar off...... (perhaps leave the phone number of your solicitor in there....) Anyway back on topic I'm not sure how a i feel about the guy who used to guard the "pic n mix" at woolies being an FEO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Would they be happy with one of these next to the cabinet? http://www.keysafe.co.uk/police_approved_supra_c500_keysafe_002049 Don't you love rip off Britain Same things in the US are about £17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Don't you love rip off Britain Same things in the US are about £17 There are cheaper ones http://www.screwfix.com/p/master-lock-5-key-combination-key-safe/77908?cm_mmc=Google-_-Datafeed-_-Security-_-Master%20Lock%205-Key%20Combination%20Key%20Safe&gclid=CJ6stpSLt64CFYcRfAodQjHarA but the £60 is police approved.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR1960 Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Why can't you tell your firearms officer where your keys are? My mrs knows... They're in a keysafe inside another safe so good luck getting them out! The others are in my pocket, same answer as before. You'll have more luck getting in my cabinet than you will getting to my keys, good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 Take a look here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-16277806 :exclamation: What they have not told us that this will include the LINCOLNSHIRE POLICE FIREARMS LICENCING DEPARTMENT all but the two managers will become employees of G4S. Will you be happy for non Police employees to know you have guns where the keys are and to let them in to your house and handle your guns? They are on about issuing G4S with a dealers licence so there employees can act as agents is this leagle? The chief constable has just retirered as has the head of admin are they going to take employment with G4S? Think I better get down the bookies on that one must be worth a wager !!! :hmm: Deershooter This is nothing new. Most licensing departments are already staffed almost entirely by non-police employees and they do most of the visits. What is really needed is for firearms licensing to be taken away from the police entirely and put in the hands of a national agency. Licensing shouldn't be a police job. It's legal for G4s (or any company) to be registered as a firearms dealer. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 By your wife knowing she has in effect got access to your guns and unless they are on her sgc also then you have broken the law...... Which could result in 5 years minimum This isn't correct. Unless she actually has physical access to them she couldn't be in possession of them. The key access by someone else thing is related to the legal issue of constructive possession. That is, essentially, possession without actually being in physical possession at the time but by exercising some level of control over the item sufficient to be able to put your self in actual possession relatively easily. The mere fact that someone knows where your keys are is not the same as them having constructive possession of your guns. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 have just ran this past a feo and ours says yes in effect she has access if she knows where you hide the key..... obviously if your key is in another safe like mine and she doesn't have access to that safe it is ok...does the people in the solicitors know what the keys in your envelope are for... i would hope not regards It wouldn't matter if they didn't have a set of house keys as they still couldn't access the guns. Hence, no constructive possession. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 Interesting I would guess the letter on solicitors is only to be opened in the event of death? SO if they don't what the keys are for its fine, if they do and know where you keep them its fine? Lot of none sense about keys IMO its a domestic situation there are only so many hiding places so put them in another safe then what do you do with that key? and spare? put that in another safe? Just because you don't tell someone "these are my safe keys and i am putting them here" doesn't mean they don't know what they are or where. I am sure if anyone spent long enough searching they would find them (The police do this all the time go looking for stuff people have "hidden" and they know the likely places.....) As cabinets are designed to deter opportunist thieves not determined and tooled up ones there is a limit to what can be done. Precisely. The law does nbot require you to to install a scale model of Fort Knox in your house to store your guns. The condition on your FAC/SGC says that reasonable security arrangements should be made. It would be perfectly 'reasonable' for someone in your house to know where your keys are but just because they do doesn't mean they are in possession of your guns and dosn't mean that you are going to be banged up for ever for letting them know. Your 10 year-old child will know where your car keys are but people don't get done for allowing their uninsured and un-licensed kids access to them. Also, the point about constructive possession, I'm not sure what the full score here is. I think (I'm not entirely sure) that the person concerned would have to be shown to have an intention to come into actual possession of the guns. This all blew up a few years ago because some bright spark solicitor (who should have known better) actually gave his elderly mother a set of keys for his cabinet in case anything happened to him. In doing that he intended that she should have some control over the guns and was actually telling her that she should come into physical possession of them under certain circumstances. That is a far diferent situation from someone merely knowing where your keys are. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted February 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 JonathanL WRONGThese employees are civilian employees of the police authority where they work ,therefore there employer is the police !not a private company It is totally different having a "crow agent" visit you, these will just be civilians working for a private company with no police power as a crown agent they are exempt from the firearms law and do not need a certificate to handle and transfer guns G4S will not have the crown agent status Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 The answer to reducing costs, speeding up turn around times and everything else we would like to happen is staring us in the face. In addition it is politically correct and at a stroke makes everyone happy because it will immediately reduce the number of certificates, both SG and FA held. Most importantly, it will make life easier and far cheaper for us all. All you have to do is finally define, "occupier" as someone who has permission to shoot. Then all you need is one half of the shooters only to get certificated then they can invite the other have to shoot. Simples! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 JonathanL WRONGThese employees are civilian employees of the police authority where they work ,therefore there employer is the police !not a private company It is totally different having a "crow agent" visit you, these will just be civilians working for a private company with no police power as a crown agent they are exempt from the firearms law and do not need a certificate to handle and transfer guns G4S will not have the crown agent status Deershooter I said that they were non-police employees, ie; employees of the police authority who are not police officers. The point I was making was that non-police officers are already essentially running licensing departmets so it's not a big a change as people seem to think. The Crown agent thing is not a problem either as G4s can simply be registered as a firearms dealer. Besides, if they are contracted to work for the police - The Crown - there is probably a very good chance that they are indeed Crown Agents any way. To correct you - the police are not 'exempt' from the Firearm Act at all. The law binds everyone. The Act even says 'This Act binds the Crown' Also, to be very pedantic - police officers are civillians too. As far as I am aware the only people who are not 'civilians' are serving members of the armed forces. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted February 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 Jonathan would it not have been polite ,to introduce yourself before jumping in with your views on peoples posts? your posting seems very opinionated however no one knows you or where you are from please enlighten us with a hello post and tell all a little bit about yourself Deershooter :yp: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 Jonathan would it not have been polite ,to introduce yourself before jumping in with your views on peoples posts? your posting seems very opinionated however no one knows you or where you are from please enlighten us with a hello post and tell all a little bit about yourself Deershooter :yp: Haha, yes I can be a bit opinionated sometimes. Will put an intro thing on the appropriate section. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 Johnathan, you carry on with your views, at least you seem to know what you are talking about unlike a few folk on here. It's the internet, anyone can join in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) Precisely. The law does nbot require you to to install a scale model of Fort Knox in your house to store your guns. The condition on your FAC/SGC says that reasonable security arrangements should be made. It would be perfectly 'reasonable' for someone in your house to know where your keys are but just because they do doesn't mean they are in possession of your guns and dosn't mean that you are going to be banged up for ever for letting them know. Your 10 year-old child will know where your car keys are but people don't get done for allowing their uninsured and un-licensed kids access to them. Also, the point about constructive possession, I'm not sure what the full score here is. I think (I'm not entirely sure) that the person concerned would have to be shown to have an intention to come into actual possession of the guns. This all blew up a few years ago because some bright spark solicitor (who should have known better) actually gave his elderly mother a set of keys for his cabinet in case anything happened to him. In doing that he intended that she should have some control over the guns and was actually telling her that she should come into physical possession of them under certain circumstances. That is a far diferent situation from someone merely knowing where your keys are. J. Interesting article here: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=solicitors+losses+shotgun+certificate&source=web&cd=11&ved=0CCsQFjAAOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aireborough.org.uk%2Fresources%2FHow%2Bto%2Bkeep%2Byour%2Bfac.doc&ei=-XVKT-WbFYKj0QWx9s2TDg&usg=AFQjCNECWzkpzwTu2pAa0F_yTe24TnuEjg FIREARMS & SHOTGUN CERTIFICATESAND HOW TO KEEP THEM David Barrington Barnes BA Readers may be aware of the Court of Appeal case of FARRER. Briefly, Mr. Farrer, a Deputy Lord Lieutenant and leading citizen of the County of Essex spent much of his time in London and also maintained a family home and farm in Essex where his mother – a lady of distinguished years lived in a cottage. Mr. Farrer’s shotgun was kept in a proper gun safe in this cottage, and Mrs. Farrer knew where the key to the gun safe was kept. In fact she helpfully offered to assist the visiting Firearms Officer by opening the safe during his routine visit. On learning Mrs. Farrer had access to the shotgun, the Chief Constable refused to renew Mr. Farrer’s Shotgun Certificate. The reason for this refusal was that he had allowed his mother – a person holding no shotgun certificate – access to his After negotiations between the Chief Constable and Mr Farrer broke down, he appealed to the Crown Court, where it was held that Mrs. Farrer was an unauthorised person given access to her son’s shotgun, and that she was the custodial possessor of them. Therefore, the Crown Court concluded, the storage arrangements made by Mr. Farrer were not such as to prevent so far as reasonable practicable access to the guns by an unauthorised person i.e. his It held Mr. Farrer was in breach of the terms of his Shotgun Certificate by not having it stored securely so as to prevent, as far as reasonably practicable, access to the shotgun by an unauthorised person. Edited February 26, 2012 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagsy Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) The reality is there are few non front-line roles in the police which couldn't be contracted out; we've seen many examples of this already. Whilst it may not sit comfortably with some of us the only thing surprising about a private contractor being brought into a licensing department is that is hasn't happened already. Edited February 26, 2012 by Bagsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 Precisely. The law does nbot require you to to install a scale model of Fort Knox in your house to store your guns. The condition on your FAC/SGC says that reasonable security arrangements should be made. It would be perfectly 'reasonable' for someone in your house to know where your keys are but just because they do doesn't mean they are in possession of your guns and dosn't mean that you are going to be banged up for ever for letting them know. I reckon you're on dodgy ground there fella. By allowing an unauthorised person to know the whereabouts of your keys, and therefore possible access to your cabinet, you're not complying with the safekeeping condition attached to your SGC/FAC. Under the Firearms Rules 1998, a prescribed safekeeping condition is attached to all firearm and shotgun certificates. It is an offence not to comply with these conditions. The maximum penalty for this offence can be up to 6 months in prison, or a fine, or both. The safekeeping condition attached to firearms or shotgun certificates requires that the guns and section 1 ammunition must be stored securely to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, unauthorised people taking or using them. Any other person who does not hold a firearm or shotgun certificate is included in the term ‘unauthorised’. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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