dead mans keys?

[HDAV]

We are talking shotguns here, if they break into your house they commuted a criminal act, if with your keys, intent to steal firearms.... I don't see how That can be not taking reasonable precautions? Limited from any burglar to one person you know and trust ? Also they don't need to know they have your spares keys (but anyone asking me to store something for who didn't tell me what it was would get a swift reply)

[linny]

If I'm dead I don't think I will be too bothered.

Selfish? Maybe, but I reckon the ones looking for the keys and having to deal with all that nonsense will have a nice few quid coming their way.

that will be nice for them NOT. i would rather have my friends and family over a few quid

[welshwarrior]

Wife reads my will and finds the key location in that. Opens the cabinet and logs them as per my instruction until her FAC comes through she has a SGC so they are easy. When my son is old enough he gets them all.

[shaun4860]

just reading a couple of threads. one turned into a 'no one must know were your keys are' and the other was asking about what happens to the guns when someone dies.

so picture the scene.

i go to get a takeaway tonight, a drink driver ploughs head on into my car killing me instantly.

while my guns are safely locked up in a steel cabinet, bolted to a wall with very little chance of moving it.(due to the size of the cupboard and boiler and were its situated in there).

you couldn't get a drill in, or a grinder to the cabinet. due to lack of space.

so what happens to my guns? as know one knows were my keys are :yp:

and except from cutting two leafs of brick work to get at it, its not moving. and whos responsible for removing them? bearing in mind, from a legal pint of view the wife/gf has noting to do with them?

 

Indian or Chinese?

 

Your doing well typing this with you being dead an all.

 

Edited February 26, 2012 by shaun4860

[39TDS]

that will be nice for them NOT. i would rather have my friends and family over a few quid

How are you going to have friends and family when you are dead?

[HDAV]

Which part of that do you have in writing?

 

Interesting article here:

 

Which sugegst if they dont hvae your house keys and only your cabinet keys they are not in "possession"

 

Example: YOu leave your car at home go to pub/friends etc and have afew drinks some might say you are drunk. IF you have your car keys in your pocket are you potentially "drunk in charge of a motor vehicle?" if you left your car keys at home and have your house keys (a reasonable thing to require (particularly if the butler and house keeper are having a night off) could you still be "drunk in charge"?

 

IT seems your only drunk in charge if your in the vehicle, can the same be applied to firearms? http://www.motoring.marymonson.co.uk/drunk-in-charge.php

[Dekers]

Interesting article here:

 

Which sugegst if they dont hvae your house keys and only your cabinet keys they are not in "possession"

 

Example: YOu leave your car at home go to pub/friends etc and have afew drinks some might say you are drunk. IF you have your car keys in your pocket are you potentially "drunk in charge of a motor vehicle?" if you left your car keys at home and have your house keys (a reasonable thing to require (particularly if the butler and house keeper are having a night off) could you still be "drunk in charge"?

 

IT seems your only drunk in charge if your in the vehicle, can the same be applied to firearms? http://www.motoring.marymonson.co.uk/drunk-in-charge.php

 

Not aware of that FARRER before, does that still stand as a precident?

 

[JBS]

When i first got my SGC i used to keep a set of keys on my keyring thinking that they would always be with me and were perfectly safe, i soon realised that there were plenty of times that i was out and didnt take my keys with me, for example going out with friends or taking the other car and using the mrs keys.

 

I had been leaving my keys at home with a set of cabinet keys there for the taking for anyone who broke into the house, the feo never questioned it when he saw that i kept the keys on my van keys, probably because he had never really thought it through either, a very easy mistake to make IMO

[scobydog]

I'm a locksmith and it takes @ 10 mins per lock to drill out a gun cabinet lock,we have drill bits that go through steel and armour plate really easily. Also my feo said that they would get one of us out if needed to get access.

[HDAV]

Not aware of that FARRER before, does that still stand as a precident?

 

AS far as i know it's the only test case of such a nature there is a load of info about it and it's quite intricate but he lost SGC and it has not been reinstated (as far as i am aware)

[apache]

I'm a locksmith and it takes @ 10 mins per lock to drill out a gun cabinet lock,we have drill bits that go through steel and armour plate really easily. Also my feo said that they would get one of us out if needed to get access.

I assumed a locksmith would pick the lock? Thought drilling out was a last resort for jammed mechanisms?

[JonathanL]

Not aware of that FARRER before, does that still stand as a precident?

 

 

Farrer doesn't create a precient as it wasn't an appeal case. Only those cases create precidents which are binding upon the lower courts. By appeal I mean that it wasn't a case previously dealt with in a lower court which had been appealed to a higher one, such as a conviction for a crime which had been brought before the Court of Appeal.

 

It was an 'appeal' in the sense that he was appealing against the police decision not to renew his ticket but in the legal sense it was a first instance decision so creates no precident.

 

Having said that, there isn't really any precident which it could have set. There was no particular point of law which needed to be settled. He was appealing the fact that the police refused to renew his ticket on the ground that he had not takn reasonable security measures so that unauthorised persons could not access his guns. An unauthorised person did have access to them so his case was pretty much doomed to fail from the outset.

 

J.

[Bagsy]

He was appealing the fact that the police refused to renew his ticket on the ground that he had not takn reasonable security measures so that unauthorised persons could not access his guns. An unauthorised person did have access to them so his case was pretty much doomed to fail from the outset.

 

J.

 

...and he was a solicitor?

[Dekers]

Farrer doesn't create a precient as it wasn't an appeal case. Only those cases create precidents which are binding upon the lower courts. By appeal I mean that it wasn't a case previously dealt with in a lower court which had been appealed to a higher one, such as a conviction for a crime which had been brought before the Court of Appeal.

 

It was an 'appeal' in the sense that he was appealing against the police decision not to renew his ticket but in the legal sense it was a first instance decision so creates no precident.

 

Having said that, there isn't really any precident which it could have set. There was no particular point of law which needed to be settled. He was appealing the fact that the police refused to renew his ticket on the ground that he had not takn reasonable security measures so that unauthorised persons could not access his guns. An unauthorised person did have access to them so his case was pretty much doomed to fail from the outset.

 

J.

 

Crown Court then Court of Appeal apparently!

[HDAV]

Farrer doesn't create a precient as it wasn't an appeal case. Only those cases create precidents which are binding upon the lower courts. By appeal I mean that it wasn't a case previously dealt with in a lower court which had been appealed to a higher one, such as a conviction for a crime which had been brought before the Court of Appeal.

 

Farrer went to the "Court of Appeal and lost so doesn't that make it a test case?

 

Mr Arthur Farrer, retired partner of Farrer & Co, solicitors to the Queen, will be welcomed by gun owners throughout the country.

:blink: :o

There was alarm among shooting enthusiasts when Chelmsford Crown Court backed the police decision and dismissed an appeal by Mr Farrer against the loss of his licence.

 

He had held a firearms certificate for a .22 Winchester rifle since 1961 and a shotgun certificate since 1968.

 

Allowing Mr Farrer's appeal, Mr Justice Hooper ordered the Crown Court to reconsider the case in the light of his judgment with a differently constituted bench. He gave the police permission to appeal.

 

Sorry i cant reference it properly it was 12 years ago! http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Retired+royal+solicitor+wins+gun+fight+against+police+in+court.-a060335668

 

...and he was a solicitor?

TO the Queen! :no:

Edited February 26, 2012 by HDAV

[BIG 5]

Would you realy pay for a locksmith. Any safe can be broken in time. Hacksaw, gemmi bar, hammer? The cost of a new cabinet would equate to the callout fee of a locksmith.

[JonathanL]

Crown Court then Court of Appeal apparently!

 

Didn't know it went that far. I doubt it set any precidents though. The issue wasn't about someone knowing where your keys were. Farrer, as I understand it, actually told his mother where they were and told her to access the guns.

 

J.

[HDAV]

Would you realy pay for a locksmith. Any safe can be broken in time. Hacksaw, gemmi bar, hammer? The cost of a new cabinet would equate to the callout fee of a locksmith.

FEO will and bill the estate, unless of course you can find the keys......

[HDAV]

Didn't know it went that far. I doubt it set any precidents though. The issue wasn't about someone knowing where your keys were. Farrer, as I understand it, actually told his mother where they were and told her to access the guns.

 

J.

I thought it was that his mother volunteered to fetch for the FEO, what's odd is would you agree for FEO to visit if you weren't there? And would you instruct your mother to assist FEO perhaps he thought he had friends higher than he did and the rules didn't apply to him.....

[JonathanL]

Farrer went to the "Court of Appeal and lost so doesn't that make it a test case?

 

 

:blink: :o

 

 

Sorry i cant reference it properly it was 12 years ago! http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Retired+royal+solicitor+wins+gun+fight+against+police+in+court.-a060335668

 

 

TO the Queen! :no:

 

There is no legal definition of a 'test case'. Farrers case wasn't about the legalities of who can know where your keys are, per-se. It was simply Farrer saying; 'The police were wrong to refuse to renew my ticket on the grounds that I allowed an unauthorised person to access my guns'. He was on a loser from the outset, I think. Farrer wasn't merely careless as to who had access to them, he actually went out of his way to make sure an unauthorised person had access to them.

 

J.

[neil smith]

What is needed is an end to the key trail.

 

Buy one of those pin code key safes that are used for storing a spare house key outside.

 

Install it in a hidden place in your house, show your wife or trusted friend where its located but don't tell them the code.

 

List the code number in your will but not the location of the box, then only your trusted parties will have the required access once your no longer around.

 

The added bonus is that the keys are always there when you need them & you no longer have to carry them around all the time.

[JonathanL]

I thought it was that his mother volunteered to fetch for the FEO, what's odd is would you agree for FEO to visit if you weren't there? And would you instruct your mother to assist FEO perhaps he thought he had friends higher than he did and the rules didn't apply to him.....

 

Nail hit squarely on head, I think!

 

J.

[HDAV]

What is needed is an end to the key trail.

 

Buy one of those pin code key safes that are used for storing a spare house key outside.

 

Install it in a hidden place in your house, show your wife or trusted friend where its located but don't tell them the code.

 

List the code number in your will but not the location of the box, then only your trusted parties will have the required access once your no longer around.

 

The added bonus is that the keys are always there when you need them & you no longer have to carry them around all the time.

Good idea but when you die you still need an RFD to come and collect them and your trusted parties are in possesion ?

 

My direct experience was when my grandfather died, police were insistent the guns were removed that night! No waiting for reading of wills! Having found her father dead in the garden my aunt and mum then had to hunt the house for the keys...... My uncle has SGC so police put them on his ticket there and then and he had to take them home and cram them into his cabinet, had my grandfather gone into hospital or on holiday ( as many of us do) the guns would have stayed in his cabinet safe and fine but because he was dead that wasn't good enough.... I don't know what would have happened if they didn't find the keys? But my guess is a hefty charge from a 24 hour locksmith!!!!

 

 

Might get myself a key box mind

Edited February 26, 2012 by HDAV

[JonathanL]

What is needed is an end to the key trail.

 

Buy one of those pin code key safes that are used for storing a spare house key outside.

 

Install it in a hidden place in your house, show your wife or trusted friend where its located but don't tell them the code.

 

List the code number in your will but not the location of the box, then only your trusted parties will have the required access once your no longer around.

 

The added bonus is that the keys are always there when you need them & you no longer have to carry them around all the time.

 

This presupposes that no one will read your will until after you die. That's unlikely, to be honest. I have a copy of my grandmothers will (I helped her write it) and various members of my family know the contents of mine - need to re-do it actually now I think about it.

 

I think that people seem to go way over the top with all this key security thing. It isn't reasonable in a modern domestic situation for one person to keep the whereabouts of a set of keys totally secret from an entire household which could number seven or eight people. The condition on your cert does not require you to take every available precaution. You only need store the guns as securely as is 'reasonably practicable' given the circumstances.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Good idea but when you die you still need an RFD to come and collect them and your trusted parties are in possesion ?

 

My direct experience was when my grandfather died, police were insistent the guns were removed that night! No waiting for reading of wills! Having found her father dead in the garden my aunt and mum then had to hunt the house for the keys...... My uncle has SGC so police put them on his ticket there and then and he had to take them home and cram them into his cabinet, had my grandfather gone into hospital or on holiday ( as many of us do) the guns would have stayed in his cabinet safe and fine but because he was dead that wasn't good enough.... I don't know what would have happened if they didn't find the keys? But my guess is a hefty charge from a 24 hour locksmith!!!!

 

 

Might get myself a key box mind

 

All they need to do (and should do, in my opinion) is issue a section 7 permit to someone in the family. I had one once when they took ages to renew my FAC but they seem to have some obsession with never issuing them these days for some reason.

 

J.