WWT Lead Shot Plans

[BlaserF3]

I really would like to hear the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth

 

And how come a charity, because that's all it is, can have so much say, when the outcome could change shooting as we know it for ever

[David BASC]

I must say I chuckled a bit when I read you are not not driven by 'conspiracy theories' but later state …’ It's almost as if BASC have been told by ministers 'lead is going,it's up to you how you tell your members'. And further that BASC has something to hide!! :yp:

 

1 BASC has nothing to hide

 

2 BASC will continue to resist further restrictions on the use of lead shot, but we also accept that NTX will work as others have tried and found out, but as with lead, there are limitations. This does NOT mean BASC is anti lead, not does it mean we believe it is inevitable that lead will be restricted further, however there is a threat of that not least of all from Europe.

 

3 BASC has not been told by ministers that lead is going

 

4 There is no proposal before Parliament for a lead ban or further restrictions.

 

5 The LAG is where DEFRA will look to for a report on the risks (if any) presented by lead shot. The WWT messing about outside of the LAG, which in effect thay wanted set up in the first place, will not help their case one bit.

 

6 The LAG will deliver recommendations on how to reduce or remove any risks uncovered.

 

7. DEFRA will take the decision of what, if anything, to do once they have the report

 

8 BASC have publically blasted the WWT about their leaked proposals, and statements; this was the lead story in this weeks Shooting Times and we await a response from WWT, but the current level of non compliance does not help our position. Imagine what a powerful and robust position we would have been in if compliance had been high.

 

9 Given that the WWT was started by a wildfowler, who I suspect is spinning in his grave, it would not be unreasonable for others to do what Scully has done and also ask the hard questions of the WWT

 

10 To the very best of my knowledge, never in the history of the UK has anyone ever been harmed by eating game shot with lead by consequently suffering lead poisoning.

 

 

David

[BlaserF3]

Good old Daily Mail http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2143657/An-attack-country-sports--anger-Wildfowl-Trusts-bid-ban-lead-shot.html

[Scully]

 

 

Are you seriously asking why minutes of some meetings that discuss key strategic and business issues cannot be posted on an open forum? Think about it for a moment…

 

 

 

David

I,like you,enjoy a chuckle also David.So I thought about the above question for a moment...then had a chuckle!This is BASC we're talking about here,not MI6 and a matter of National Security! Are you serious!But there again,considering the contents of the minutes,yes,I can certainly see why BASC wouldn't want it's members to see them,never mind the opposition!

You obviously regard my comment regarding 'conspiracy theories' comical also,and if I regarded BASC as an organisation with 'clout'I'd be laughing along with you;but don't delude yourself as to the extent of BASC's power or influence;if ministers told BASC to jump,their response would be 'how high?'

Nothing to hide?Then publish the minutes....quash all accusations of 'conspiracy theories' and dispel all doubt as to BASC's commitment to fight opposition to lead shot.Simple isn't it?But I was forgetting,you don't have the 'authority'(so let me know who has,let's see if they have the bottle)do you?

People will no doubt draw their own conclusions.....what other choice have they?

[Scully]

I really would like to hear the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth

'You can't handle the truth!'

Sorry,big movie fan!

[JRDS]

This was simply a statement from BASC reaffirming our robust stance on lead. Our position on lead had been posted on our web site for years, but some, who evidently had not visited our web site, were questioning our position. Fair enough.

 

So we took the opportunity when asked by ST to set the record straight. Yes JH resigned one of his memberships, kept the other and of course re-joined BASC as an individual a little over a year later, but let the man rest in peace OK?

 

As far as I know, the statement by WWT in regard to John Harradine is not based on any single statement he made. John has for years said that all the current shot types, including lead will work, but all shot regardless of what it’s made of, will have its limitations. This has been extrapolated by some to read ‘BASC says all the alternatives work’ True, we have said that but we dont say because of that we should not use lead!

 

BASC never has and never will be ‘closet supporters of a lead ban’ as some may accuse; what would be the benefit to BASC of BASC being in any way anti lead?

 

As to the work we have done looking at the alternatives, well this started long before the bans came in and as the different alternatives came out we tested them, patterned them etc we have published information and finding from time to time in Shooting & Conservation mag.

 

There was a full report on the first season with the different alternatives in England in the 2nd issue of S&C in 2000 for example. Here members of different clubs had tried different alternative shot and they gave their views on their findings.

 

Since then we have published other articles on the alternatives in S&C and in the wider shooting press.

 

Here is a link to the info sheet section of the research pages on the BASC web site, where some of the latest documents are posted, one or two are in the process of being updated by the way.

 

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/departments/research/publications/information-fact-sheets.cfm

 

The truth about lead will emerge, and that’s what the LAG is all about, and as I may have said, the latest meeting minutes were posted on the LAG web site this week.

 

David

 

Let him RIP what on earth are you on about??

 

I have every respect for JH and have enjoyed his superb articles in ST for years. I was merely stating the fact that he saw straight through you and resigned as I could I which is which I left BASC and joined the NGO at the time.

 

I really have no idea why your organisation has no real opposition to a Lead Shot ban but maybe the minutes of your meetings would tell us just as the leaked document gave a real insight into the true views of your organisation (hence why it was leaked obviously by someone who does actually care).

 

The only possible conclusion I can draw is that your organisation has close ties with Politicians / Government bodies who desire a Lead Shot ban in the interests of Political Correctness which is the only possible reason for a ban.

Edited May 13, 2012 by JRDS

[David BASC]

BASC have been opposed to restrictions on lead for decades, and for anyone to say there is no evidence of this must have missed everything we have ever published on our web site and our mag,etc.

 

BASC will keep resisting , thankfully now supported by other organisations, any lead ban simply because we see no evidence for any further restrictions or bans, this is clearly stated on our web site, and I am please tot say the web sites of some other organisations who have joined the fight since the LAG was formed.

 

I say again, it’s not unelected committees that set BASC policy it’s the elected Council. It’s the policy and views of Council that’s important.

 

As I say, there are no proposals in front of parliament for lead bans and BASC is not in the pockets of ministers supporting restrictions on lead. If you have any evidence to back up your accusations then post it on here please. I am sure the WWT would love you to bits if you could prove all this rubbish and thus help support that campaign to get lead banned!

 

David

[wymberley]

We are not gentlemen because over the years we've devised a set of rules, previously known as "shooting lore" and now, and less attractively, "codes of conduct" mainly because these rules do not actually relate to conduct as such but to safety and our consideration for our quarry. No, we are gentlemen because we obey them.

 

Following the tragic events at Dunblane we acted appropriately and with respect. Looking backwards and history both reflect that consequently we got shafted. Why? Because those against us don't have any such constraints and are out to get what they want. Consequently, from our point of view, the result is the same as putting a boxer in a ring with a street fighter and tearing up the rule book; we and said boxer are going to get hammered.

 

mudpatten wants to know what we should do about it generally and the present WWT situation in particular.

 

The Mail on Sunday piece is a godsend and we should utilize our new-ish media suite to the full sending out PRs to all and sundry amplifying what Simon Clarke has already said and particularly the bit about the WWT exceeding their remit (this element is the one 'achilles heel' in that very dangerous WWT letter). That should take care of the 'particular' until the donkey dies.

 

How about in general? BASC should find the scheming, conniving and conscience free little scroat that leaked the document in question to the Mail on Suday AND EMPLOY HIM. Perhaps then, the equally devious characters, both the politicians and the do-gooders, will finally realise that we're not going to lie down and that thev've got a fight on their hands using their rules - no rules.

 

In return for keeping the toys in the pram, perhaps mudpatten could oblige and stop tossing his out in the direction of those members who, as already said, have had the temerity to criticise their own organisation.

[mudpatten]

Some excellent suggestions from Wymberely there.Lets wait until Monday when BASC are again open for business and see what happens.

 

I suspect that both David BASC and myself go to bed of an evening and sleep the sleep of the righteous. Unlike some who spend half an hour looking under the bed and in the cupboards for monsters that they know are there!

 

But they can`t quite find them!!!!

 

You allege that I`m attacking members for having the temerity to attack BASC! Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

What I find laughable is when people attack BASC for what they IMAGINE to be its faults and those who`s world revolves around conspiracy theories and who will simply not believe what they are told.

 

In a recent, and to me rather confused post,JRDS makes mention of, I presume, John Humpreys stating.... "that he saw through you(BASC)and resigned."

 

Humpreys vented a lot of hot air on the subject but he never actually left BASC and neither was his displeasure with it such that he declined to meet John Swift, BASC`s director, during his much lamented final days.

 

If your only source of information is from a biased sporting media then you could be forgiven for thinking the way you do.

 

As David keeps trying to tell you, but so entrenched is the conspiracy theory that you won`t believe him, that the fact is often very different from what the media wants you to believe.

Edited May 13, 2012 by mudpatten

[wymberley]

 

You allege that I`m attacking members for having the temerity to attack BASC! Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

What I find laughable is when people attack BASC for what they IMAGINE to be its faults and those who`s world revolves around conspiracy theories and who will simply not believe what they are told.

 

 

So, not only are you critical of members' right to comment, now you insult them by finding them laughable. If it were not for the fact that I really believe that you are firmly pro BASC, one could easily form an opinion that you were a one man membership depletion device.

 

Whose fault could it be that someone will not believe what they're told? Have you ever stopped for a moment and considered that? I suspect not.

 

There is a difference between talking to a member and anyone else to whom you wish to make a point. In a recent post I mentioned press releases to various groups, the sort that WWT would target. My point was taken but the reply then took the opportunity to make a point that everyone (shooters, ie, the converted) should be aware of how efficient BASC is. Now, the point was made but to everyone who already knew it and meanwhile I've still no idea whether my point would be taken further or binned (now, of course events have overtaken the topic). So, what am I to believe.

 

That is one simple and minor example but there are countless others regarding the lead/steel debate and this has been commented on several times, but consistantly ignored. When glossing over a comment about the benefits of lead in reply to a post, the point is virtually always made that steel is good for you. The frequency of this has caused more than one comment that BASC is anti lead and pro steel. If you're talking to a shooter/BASC member, stop trying to score points, there's no need and as is becoming increasingly obvious (well it would if you'd stop and listen for a moment) that it does more harm than good.

 

Now, I agree that certain remarks can be linked to a non existant conspiracy theory but before you come back and jump down my throat, I would respectfully suggest that you have a look, or even ask, if my remarks in this respect are considered valid. I have no doubt that you would find that they are and the solution is clear: Concentrate more on answering the point raised and not offering a glib response to act as a launch platform for any point you may like to get across regarding BASC's superlative performance.

[mudpatten]

I`m neither critical of members rights nor have I ever insulted them and you cannot provide examples of either of your allegations.

 

I am however,strongly critical of people who constantly scratch, claw,dig at and undermine BASC`s performance and reputation without a scrap of evidence of any wrongdoing.

 

Your comment "Whose fault could it be that someone will not believe what they`re told", in my non medical opinion,smacks of paranoid delusion,as it will to anyone else who reads your last rant.

 

I`m sorry if this sounds a bit tetchy and little short of a personal dig, but I challenge you to get into bed this evening without looking under the bed or in the cupboards.

 

I bet you can`t do it!

[Scully]

BASC have been opposed to restrictions on lead for decades, and for anyone to say there is no evidence of this must have missed everything we have ever published on our web site and our mag,etc.

BASC is not in the pockets of ministers supporting restrictions on lead. If you have any evidence to back up your accusations then post it on here please. I am sure the WWT would love you to bits if you could prove all this rubbish and thus help support that campaign to get lead banned!

 

David

Not sure the first sentence is relevant as I can't remember anyone suggesting BASC hasn't opposed lead restrictions!

I also never said BASC were 'in the pockets of ministers'.What possible gain could politicians have from BASC being in their pockets?The other way round would be great,but I rather think BASC will need politicians before politicians need BASC,don't you?

Why would me proving 'all this rubbish' support the campaign to get lead banned?All it would prove is what I've been suggesting all along;that BASC isn't being 100% honest with it's membership regarding it's commitment to fight a lead ban.

Someone who had access to the minutes of the Rossett Hall meeting felt concerned enough about their contents to leak them,and BASC are clearly afraid to publish them,so despite all your assurances I remain unconvinced.

As I've already said,I would dearly love to be wrong,and when(if)Ms.Pain gets back to me(I have been informed she's out of the office at the moment-obviously doesn't work weekends!)I will publish her reply(dependant on copyright)even if it proves me wrong.

I will be away again this week,so wont be able to read my e-mails 'til the weekend.

[mudpatten]

Scully old chap,I may have got this wrong because I have not been paying too much attention to the detail of your posts, but does this Ms.Pain to whom you are anxious to speak works for the WWT?

 

The same group who has launched off on its own in a unilateral bid to ban lead shot using information and tactics which I think we would all describe as underhand and devious.

 

They must be those things otherwise they would be the truth and we would not be arguing against them.

 

You want her to "confirm" something allegedly said by BASC`s John Harradine?

 

Whomsoever she works for,don`t you think it a poor idea to give a bunch of anti`s like the WWT the opportunity to sow alarm and distress amongst our ranks by giving her the opportunity to give you the answer you so obviously want.

 

Do you believe that the staff of the WWT are inherently more honest than those of BASC?

[wymberley]

 

I have not been paying attention

 

 

[JRDS]

Some excellent suggestions from Wymberely there.Lets wait until Monday when BASC are again open for business and see what happens.

 

I suspect that both David BASC and myself go to bed of an evening and sleep the sleep of the righteous. Unlike some who spend half an hour looking under the bed and in the cupboards for monsters that they know are there!

 

But they can`t quite find them!!!!

 

You allege that I`m attacking members for having the temerity to attack BASC! Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

What I find laughable is when people attack BASC for what they IMAGINE to be its faults and those who`s world revolves around conspiracy theories and who will simply not believe what they are told.

 

In a recent, and to me rather confused post,JRDS makes mention of, I presume, John Humpreys stating.... "that he saw through you(BASC)and resigned."

 

Humpreys vented a lot of hot air on the subject but he never actually left BASC and neither was his displeasure with it such that he declined to meet John Swift, BASC`s director, during his much lamented final days.

 

If your only source of information is from a biased sporting media then you could be forgiven for thinking the way you do.

 

As David keeps trying to tell you, but so entrenched is the conspiracy theory that you won`t believe him, that the fact is often very different from what the media wants you to believe.

 

 

Why are you confused, can you not remember back a couple of years?

 

JH wrote a very scathing article in ST on BASC, saw straight through their scheming and resigned his memebership at the time and good for him?

 

The leaked Memo was not a biased Media stunt but was a fact that showed BASC in their true colours over their stance on Lead.

 

Sleep of the righteous, what a pompous condescending statement that is.

[Bazooka Joe]

Why are you confused, can you not remember back a couple of years?

 

JH wrote a very scathing article in ST on BASC, saw straight through their scheming and resigned his memebership at the time and good for him?

 

The leaked Memo was not a biased Media stunt but was a fact that showed BASC in their true colours over their stance on Lead.

 

 

Is this the one.?

 

A toxic issue

[mudpatten]

JRDS once again confirms my viewpoint about this whole issue when he states "JH wrote a very scathing article about BASC and resigned."

 

JH wrote a misleading and out of context piece which was published in the Shooting Times, the mouthpiece of the Countryside Alliance, at a time when the CA was actively, in my opinion, trying to poach BASC members.

 

The indisputable fact is that JH DID NOT LEAVE BASC.He said one thing and then did something completely different! I`m sorry to be the one to have to tell you that and I doubt, given your outlook on things, that you`ll believe me.

 

As a magazine reader your stance on this issue was being subtly and cynically manipulated. You were being played like a fish on a hook.

 

And herein lies the kernel of the issue. There are some people, and we all know one or two who`s glass of life is always half empty, nothing is ever how it should be and they sit in the corner sipping warm beer and weeping about the imagined loss of whatever, dragging down everybody who comes into contact with them and infecting others with their negativity.

 

I notice in passing, that none of the BASC slaggers actually did anything constructive like standing for BASC council in the forthcoming elections. Were they to get elected they could have set about curing all of BASC`s imagined evils.

 

Unfortunately, it is easier to stand in the wings, or sit at a keyboard, and throw rocks

 

Observant Forum members will have noticed that it is the same small group of people who have created their own fantasy version of events from which they cannot awaken.

[al4x]

Surely the best way to both apease the WWT and effectively blow their argument out of the water is to suggest we bring the non toxic laws on shooting ducks etc more in line with scottish law. Then effectively it is out of their remit if lead isn't used over water then they have what they want from a public perceptive. What then happens away from water and wetlands has absolutely **** all to do with them.

[mudpatten]

Inspired! I wholeheartedly agree.

[David BASC]

WWT plans to ban lead shot - BASC response.

 

The UK's largest shooting organisation, the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC), has attacked plans by the Wildfowl & Wetlands Trust (WWT) to campaign for a total abolition of lead shot within three years.

 

A leaked WWT council paper sets out a three year plan to ban lead shot and details plans to create a food scare around shot game.

 

BASC spokesman Simon Clarke said: "It is a tragedy that an organisation with a remit to protect wildfowl and wetlands has chosen to move into areas beyond its scope and competency by opting to campaign for a total lead ban. The declared intention of the WWT to deliberately start a health scare around game meat is shocking. The WWT has also chosen to pre-empt the work of the independent Lead Ammunition Group which is working to assess all the scientific evidence on lead ammunition before reporting its findings to Defra."

 

Articles have appeared in the Mail on Sunday and Shooting Times on the issue.

 

They can be read here -

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2143657/An-attack-country-sports--anger-Wildfowl-Trusts-bid-ban-lead-shot.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

 

http://www.shootingtimes.co.uk/news/532718/BASC_blasts_WWTs_lead_shot_plans.html

 

David

[al4x]

Inspired! I wholeheartedly agree.

 

 

the other side of it is if ducks have been found in the supermarket with lead in then who could say they weren't shot in a suitable area. In fact the research done into ducks on supermarket shelves containing lead I assume it was checked they didn't originate over the border?

[JRDS]

 

 

Is this the one.?

 

A toxic issue

 

Yes that was the one.

[David BASC]

It’s my understanding that the DEFRA survey looked at duck purchased from all over the UK, so any bias from ducks north of the boarder would be tiny.

 

The article you refer to as posted above, was passing comment, in part, on a 4 page feature in and early issue of S&C in 2010, that looked at the current costs of shot and what different shot types could be used for.

 

JH was never convinced, as he says in this article, that the lead ban on wildfowling was ever needed in the first instance, so was a tad critical of anyhting we printed about NTX.Fair enough he, like all of us, are entitled to our own views.

 

There had been a lot of anti steel articles in the shooting press at the time, written by people who relied mainly on calculations of energies and velocities of shotgun pellets from charts and tables, typically to try an prove steel shot was not effective.

 

Unfortunately there were those then, as now, who seem to think that the way to protect lead shot is to undermine the credibility of other forms of shot. I am afraid they are very wrong.

 

Our articles have always been based on practical experience and real life application, which we feel is more important, and is more useful to shooters, and indeed those who have used the alternatives objectively agree, all be it you need to adapt your shooting style.

 

However, as I have said before this is taken by some as BASC being weak on lead and not fighting leads corner, and JH reiterated this in his article.

 

But back to the current WWT issue...

 

As I have said above, BASC will continue to resist further restrictions on the use of lead shot, but we also accept that NTX will work as others have tried and found out, but as with lead, there are limitations. This does NOT mean BASC is anti lead, nor does it mean we believe it is inevitable that lead will be restricted further, however there is a threat of that not least of all from Europe.

 

BASC has not been told by ministers that lead is going and there is certainly no proposal before Parliament for a lead ban or further restrictions.

 

The LAG is where DEFRA will look to for a report on the risks (if any) presented by lead shot. The WWT messing about outside of the LAG, which in effect they wanted set up in the first place, will not help their case one bit.

 

The LAG will deliver recommendations on how to reduce or remove any risks uncovered.

 

DEFRA will take the decision of what, if anything, to do once they have the report.

 

David

Edited May 14, 2012 by David BASC

[wymberley]

There you are having a good old argument/debate/discussion and along comes someone that ruins it with a modicum of sound common sense and a highly pertinent question which some would fervently wish had not been asked. (Nice ones, al4x)

 

In an earlier post regarding the good performance of non toxic rifle ammunition (don't quite understand how that cropped up on this thread), it was pointed out that the thrust of the WWT argument relating to lead shot is its general use across the board. This is the problem with which we're faced.

 

Which border?

Now, I don't know if a deal was done with the supermarkets about not opposing the tobacco advertising legislation in return for an agreement on food packaging or not. That really would be an interesting conspiracy theory! Suffice to say that if processed in, say, Walsingham, duck can be classed as British even though it was shot in the Ukraine just up the road from Chernobyl. Another problem with which we're faced.

[Scully]

The WWT has also chosen to pre-empt the work of the independent Lead Ammunition Group which is working to assess all the scientific evidence on lead ammunition before reporting its findings to Defra."

 

 

 

David

Nice to see mudpatten isn't above casting his own 'conspiracy theories' around regarding the CA's attempt to poach members from BASC.Tad hypocritical when one mans 'opinion' becomes anothers 'conspiracy'!

How can the LAG be 'independant' when it's formed from bodies including BASC and the RSPB?All these parties have vested interests in the outcome.

The scientific evidence is only good if the funding is taken from a truly independant source.There are many instances of scientific findings being funded by interested parties.

See you all at the weekend.Don't do anything I wouldn't!