Neutral Eye Dominance

[PAV331]

Hi all, Just thought I'd post about my recent (and frustrating) journey over the past few months at the clay ground. I have shot for a number of years but nothing to serious, I'm in the RAF and over the last six months have started shooting a lot of clays on base with occasional tuition. A couple of months ago, and just when I thought I was starting to get the hang of it, my consistent scores dropped drastically, on English skeet for example, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, then 14! I haven't been able to recover since. Today started out like it was going to be another annoying day, but I tried to grit my teeth and persevere. When speaking about it with one of the couches over a coffee, he asked me to mount the gun and point the bead at his eye, straight away he could see the I had neutral eye dominance, i.e when looking back at me, he could see the bead aligned smack bang in the middle of my eyes, instead of being aligned with the pupil of my right eye as it should, I've never heard of a neutral eye dominance and apparently its fairly rare.

 

I have always noticed that I didn't seem to have a very 'clean cut' sighting picture when looking down the rib, as weird as it may sound, I can see the whole length of the rib with double vision at the breech end which come together at the bead resulting in me missing over the top and finding it hard to judge lead. I always assumed I was right eye dominant as all other dominance tests I've done suggest that I definitely am. Couch then asked me to mount the gun again pointing at his eye with both eyes open, then close my left eye, when I done this, I could only see the right hand side of the barrel/rib and had to shift my head over to the left to align the bead, apparently it was then sat with the bead nicly over my right pupil. I then tried the scotch tape of my left eye trick, and as if by magic, I had a very clear, central sighting picture seeing only a very small amount of rib with no double vision. Shooting a crossing target like it on the other hand appears to be something different altogether as my 'perceived' lead which I have got used to over the years has all changed,and it just feels plain odd not to see out of my left eye, but hopefully I'll get used to it eventually. I'm glad I've finally found the root of the problem, but can't help feel a little disheartened that I have to 'learn to shoot again' hopefully at will work out as one step back and two forward in the end. There doesn't appear to be a lot of info on the web about neutral eye dominance, has anyone had much experience with this?

[subsonicnat]

Hi all, Just thought I'd post about my recent (and frustrating) journey over the past few months at the clay ground. I have shot for a number of years but nothing to serious, I'm in the RAF and over the last six months have started shooting a lot of clays on base with occasional tuition. A couple of months ago, and just when I thought I was starting to get the hang of it, my consistent scores dropped drastically, on English skeet for example, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, then 14! I haven't been able to recover since. Today started out like it was going to be another annoying day, but I tried to grit my teeth and persevere. When speaking about it with one of the couches over a coffee, he asked me to mount the gun and point the bead at his eye, straight away he could see the I had neutral eye dominance, i.e when looking back at me, he could see the bead aligned smack bang in the middle of my eyes, instead of being aligned with the pupil of my right eye as it should, I've never heard of a neutral eye dominance and apparently its fairly rare.

 

I have always noticed that I didn't seem to have a very 'clean cut' sighting picture when looking down the rib, as weird as it may sound, I can see the whole length of the rib with double vision at the breech end which come together at the bead resulting in me missing over the top and finding it hard to judge lead. I always assumed I was right eye dominant as all other dominance tests I've done suggest that I definitely am. Couch then asked me to mount the gun again pointing at his eye with both eyes open, then close my left eye, when I done this, I could only see the right hand side of the barrel/rib and had to shift my head over to the left to align the bead, apparently it was then sat with the bead nicly over my right pupil. I then tried the scotch tape of my left eye trick, and as if by magic, I had a very clear, central sighting picture seeing only a very small amount of rib with no double vision. Shooting a crossing target like it on the other hand appears to be something different altogether as my 'perceived' lead which I have got used to over the years has all changed,and it just feels plain odd not to see out of my left eye, but hopefully I'll get used to it eventually. I'm glad I've finally found the root of the problem, but can't help feel a little disheartened that I have to 'learn to shoot again' hopefully at will work out as one step back and two forward in the end. There doesn't appear to be a lot of info on the web about neutral eye dominance, has anyone had much experience with this?

 

Hi Mate, Funny coming across this problem::

There is a way to sort it,,, I am having the same problem really..

I do a little gunsmithing and have altered my stock with a LOT of CAST_OFF, it really is a LOT..

The Gun Now (A Single Barrel Auto) Shoots dead on target with BOTH EYES OPEN.

Have put the Drop at HEEL on as well, it really has changed my line of sight in regard to how I used to shoot..

Will now have to Train my percieved line of sight And LEAD.. Very interesting problem to say the least:

it has worked for me, so it should work for you mate.. Best Of Luck..

Colin:Wisbech.Uk.

[figgy]

I have the same problem, and fitting a easy hit sight cured it for me as only your right eye can see the bead. Might be worth trying before you go one eyed.

 

Figgy

[Guest cookoff013]

Hi all, Just thought I'd post about my recent (and frustrating) journey over the past few months at the clay ground. I have shot for a number of years but nothing to serious, I'm in the RAF and over the last six months have started shooting a lot of clays on base with occasional tuition. A couple of months ago, and just when I thought I was starting to get the hang of it, my consistent scores dropped drastically, on English skeet for example, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, then 14! I haven't been able to recover since. Today started out like it was going to be another annoying day, but I tried to grit my teeth and persevere. When speaking about it with one of the couches over a coffee, he asked me to mount the gun and point the bead at his eye, straight away he could see the I had neutral eye dominance, i.e when looking back at me, he could see the bead aligned smack bang in the middle of my eyes, instead of being aligned with the pupil of my right eye as it should, I've never heard of a neutral eye dominance and apparently its fairly rare.

 

I have always noticed that I didn't seem to have a very 'clean cut' sighting picture when looking down the rib, as weird as it may sound, I can see the whole length of the rib with double vision at the breech end which come together at the bead resulting in me missing over the top and finding it hard to judge lead. I always assumed I was right eye dominant as all other dominance tests I've done suggest that I definitely am. Couch then asked me to mount the gun again pointing at his eye with both eyes open, then close my left eye, when I done this, I could only see the right hand side of the barrel/rib and had to shift my head over to the left to align the bead, apparently it was then sat with the bead nicly over my right pupil. I then tried the scotch tape of my left eye trick, and as if by magic, I had a very clear, central sighting picture seeing only a very small amount of rib with no double vision. Shooting a crossing target like it on the other hand appears to be something different altogether as my 'perceived' lead which I have got used to over the years has all changed,and it just feels plain odd not to see out of my left eye, but hopefully I'll get used to it eventually. I'm glad I've finally found the root of the problem, but can't help feel a little disheartened that I have to 'learn to shoot again' hopefully at will work out as one step back and two forward in the end. There doesn't appear to be a lot of info on the web about neutral eye dominance, has anyone had much experience with this?

 

i struggled with this for many years, i have tried to use beads and whatnot to no avail, when i mount the gun i can either have 1 -2-3 sight pictures, or a mixture / blend of the two, it frustraited me for years. i knew i had a problem but didnt know what it was. i went to a shooting event basc, to diagnose the problem, no eye dominance. then the guy said, instead of gluing stuff to my face or the gun, i`ll have to live with slightly sqinting or closing one of my left eye (right handed).

 

did this, and scores shot up. has a go with the 12,20,28,and .410 on the test area, i hit most if not all. my problem diagnosed and cured. i had been previouslty told i could have left eye dominance and have to shoot lefty. i tried it but couldnt hit daylight.

 

my scores are kind of respectable, straighting a few stands now and again.

 

i`ve been told repeatedly i`m shooting wrong as both eyes should be open. but you know what, i`m hitting stuff, thats all that matters.

[subsonicnat]

i struggled with this for many years, i have tried to use beads and whatnot to no avail, when i mount the gun i can either have 1 -2-3 sight pictures, or a mixture / blend of the two, it frustraited me for years. i knew i had a problem but didnt know what it was. i went to a shooting event basc, to diagnose the problem, no eye dominance. then the guy said, instead of gluing stuff to my face or the gun, i`ll have to live with slightly sqinting or closing one of my left eye (right handed).

 

did this, and scores shot up. has a go with the 12,20,28,and .410 on the test area, i hit most if not all. my problem diagnosed and cured. i had been previouslty told i could have left eye dominance and have to shoot lefty. i tried it but couldnt hit daylight.

 

my scores are kind of respectable, straighting a few stands now and again.

 

i`ve been told repeatedly i`m shooting wrong as both eyes should be open. but you know what, i`m hitting stuff, thats all that matters.

 

Well Done young man, it goes to show there is more than one way of Skinning a cat..(Sorry To cat lovers .lol.)

Bought one of these cheapo sighting lasers, YES it does work, in fact SPOT ON;

Lets Hope my confidence is now justified after all this trouble .lol.

Will let you all Know after SUNDAY.

Colin:Wisbech:UK.

[subsonicnat]

Well Done young man, it goes to show there is more than one way of Skinning a cat..(Sorry To cat lovers .lol.)

Bought one of these cheapo sighting lasers, YES it does work, in fact SPOT ON;

Lets Hope my confidence is now justified after all this trouble .lol.

Will let you all Know after SUNDAY.

Colin:Wisbech:UK.

 

UPDATE:::::: SUNDAY:::

 

Right my score on SKEET was 20/25 today, I knew I had missed at least a couple by PULLING The Gun Back as well as squeezing the trigger, so scores are going back up,,

Thank the lord:: And a bit of gunsmithing .lol.

But went on the DOWN ThE LINE:::

And got a miserable 10/25.. So it seems I should START gun Down, this pointing at the trap seems to be no good so far.. Gun will stay as it is, and adjust what is wrong with this discipline,, (Any Idea`s):::

Colin:Wisbech:UK.

[sevy]

PAV

Where are u at ?

 

This is a common problem and not easily solved, I've been chasing this for months nor and as xm instructor the first port of call has to be eye dominance then gun fit. The problem

Is if you have a lazy eye muscle the eye dominance may change with diff targets. I struggle with H6 and 7 ,slow left to right and fast going away . I squint for trap and end of skeet. I must say though I've tried patches lenses the lot and by far the best option is shot spot ! Craig who developed it suffers and it's helped him. U can retrain the eye but it takes exercises and a bloody good optometrist .

[clayman]

The human brain is an intelligent thing - if the dominant eye can't see properly, the off-eye image is overlayed onto the master-eye's poor sight areas. This gives the "double vision" effect - usually a barrel and a ghost barrel.

 

Neutral or central vision can easily move to the off-eye taking part aim when the gun becomes mounted. The brain says " I can't see half the sky in my shooting eye" (action is in the way) and fills in the image from the left.

 

Some cures are:

 

Master Dots - small translucent dots on shooting glasses that allow light through, but no focal vision. Periphery vision is maintained.

 

Blinking out - train your reflexes to start two eyes open to acquire the speed and distance info, then and close down to one eye for controlling lead and taking the shot.

 

Comb raising - often, getting the eye line higher over the rib removes the brains need to "fill in" missing vision. High rib guns or a higher comb setting can fix this. Note - many think a high eye position over the rib will make them shoot high, but actually the amount of pattern raise is negligible. viz: the eye 10mm off the rib height back at the action will only raise the pattern by 9" at 20 yards.

 

Fibre optic beads - these are not instant cures as their purpose is to re-train the eye so that the rib-eye takes the aim. It takes a while for the brain to re-train to use the weaker vision, and its the presence of the bright dot in the line of aim that confirms to the brain which eye is sighting. Master eye retraining is not common in shooting sports, but a well proven technique in other sports. Glow beads can achieve eye re-training, but there are other eye exercises that can do this also.

Edited July 14, 2012 by clayman

[richiev]

Go to WWW.gunsnstuff.co.uk and read the eye dominannce section

[Salopian]

richiev, nothing there?

[clanchief]

Yes there is Ty this

 

chiefy

[PAV331]

Hi guys. Thanks for the replies, haven’t logged on for a while and didn’t realise so many of you had got back to me. The latest is I’m still persevering with the scotch tape over the left lens. It feels weird, only seeing one barrel, but I think it’s definitely a step in the right direction. I brought (for £30!) one of those Easy-hit beads, gave it a good go, but unfortunately it didn’t work for me.

 

Thanks for the link to the ‘GUNSNSTUFF’ site. Can’t believe I haven’t come across it before, its defo the best understanding of the problem I’ve came across. I gave Ritchie a ring (the guys who runs it) really nice bloke and suffers from the same issue hence trying to find a practical solution to it. He has developed a number of sticky patches of varying transparencies to put over the glasses lens of the offending eye. In theory if you follow his recommendation chart and get the right patch, it should get rid of the double vision effect and the cross dominant pull. I’ve placed an order and looking forward to having a go with it (gotta be better than scotch tape). I’ll keep you posted with the results.

[Scully]

At a gamefair many moons ago I bumped into a fellow from the Institute of Master Gunfitters(if I remember correctly)and told him I was 'winging' a few going away birds down their left-hand side with my first shot with my auto(which had no cast)but there was no problem with my o/u(which is cast to the right).After checking my eye dominance he told me I had neutral eye dominance,and told me I probably missed a lot of birds with my first shot(true)and that although the auto fit me better I was probably a much better shot with my o/u(also true)and that I probably wasn't aware there was a problem until I started using the auto(also true!)

Anyhow,he told me as I was right handed and shooting from the right shoulder I should treat it as left-eye dominance,which I did.

I dry mount the gun I use most on a very regular basis,in a mirror,to ensure a consistent and accurate mount,which builds up muscle memory,and still shoot with both eyes open.Works very well.

[fieldwanderer]

I suspect I have this too - I'm fine with my new gun though which is the first shotgun I've ever owned that has cast.

 

is there a way I can test myself to find out if I have it or not (i.e. without an assistant)?

[wymberley]

I suspect I have this too - I'm fine with my new gun though which is the first shotgun I've ever owned that has cast.

 

is there a way I can test myself to find out if I have it or not (i.e. without an assistant)?

 

Yep, to get an idea,assuming you're right shoulder mount the gun in a mirror to shoot your right eye. See what happens. On the other hand, you could have a look at your lessons/help thread

[Salopian]

Take a piece of card about 4inches square and put a hole through it in the centre about 1inch diameter.

Hold the card out at arms length and with both eyes open look at (focus) an object such as a light switch, concentrate on the focul object and bring the card back to your face, WITHOUT SQUINTING OR CLOSING AN EYE.

You will find that the hole in the card comes back to the eye doing the most work, sometimes called the dominant eye.

If the hole comes back to the centre of your face ( nose) it indicates that your eyes are working equally.

Eye domination or sight should only be determined by actually shooting at targets to ascertain if there are any misalignment issues.

It often happens that right eye dominant people can change to left eye dominant when a gun is mounted and vice versa.

The card test is only an indication, a start point.

[PAV331]

Yes the above tests are fine. The problem with any test that uses a hole to look through is that it forces your brain to pick the best single eye to use as only one can see through it at any one time. You can have left eye dominance, right eye dominance, and anywhere in between. As Salopian stated, this can also change when the gun is mounted. I have found the best way to test by yourself is in the mirror. Mount the gun with both eyes open quickly to aim at your right eye (if shooting right handed). If you have a strong right eye dominenance then you should see that the end bead of the gun is aligned smack bang it the centre of your right pupil (assuming your stock drop is correct). I am right eye dominant untill I shoulder a gun, then I switch to central dominance as the brain tries to overlay what it can't see with the right eye (because theres a big set of barrels in the way) with an image from what it can see with the left eye. Clever, but a pain int the **** when your trying to shoot straight. This also causes a 'double vision' of the barrels.

[PAV331]

OOOPS. Forgot a vital step in the mirror test above. After mounting the gun quickly with both eyes open and aiming at the right eye. CLOSE the left eye before checking your gun bead/pupil alignment.

[wymberley]

Yes the above tests are fine. The problem with any test that uses a hole to look through is that it forces your brain to pick the best single eye to use as only one can see through it at any one time. You can have left eye dominance, right eye dominance, and anywhere in between. As Salopian stated, this can also change when the gun is mounted. I have found the best way to test by yourself is in the mirror. Mount the gun with both eyes open quickly to aim at your right eye (if shooting right handed). If you have a strong right eye dominenance then you should see that the end bead of the gun is aligned smack bang it the centre of your right pupil (assuming your stock drop is correct). I am right eye dominant untill I shoulder a gun, then I switch to central dominance as the brain tries to overlay what it can't see with the right eye (because theres a big set of barrels in the way) with an image from what it can see with the left eye. Clever, but a pain int the **** when your trying to shoot straight. This also causes a 'double vision' of the barrels.

 

Can't beat Rigger's Eye.

[Robl]

_{I had a small revelation the other day in terms of eye dominance.}

_{I am right eye dominant, every test proves that.}

_{But sometimes when I’d shoot the instructor would see me missing in the manner similar to shooting off the left eye.}

_{When I shot one eye open I’d be better, but would miss because of misjudging movement.}

_{If I started with 2 eyes, then closed one the target would sometimes seem to jump when I closed the eye…}

_{Which would lead to a left eye dominance question – which tests showed I wasn’t.}

_{It was quite confusing.}

_{Eventually I worked it out myself.}

_{Although I was mounting the gun properly, I wasn’t moving properly.}

_{I would lift the gun without moving my head/face properly, and so would be blocking the sights with the hump of the gun.}

_{This would cause my left eye to take over as it could see the sight beads side on.}

_{When I shot with one eye closed I’d keep my head in the right place as I could see when I lost the bead and adjust.}

_{As soon as I worked that out and make sure to keep my face on the gun properly I started hitting things consistently.}

_{Looking back, I was hitting all the low targets as I wasn’t blocking my right eye, but I was missing high targets.}

_{I’d miss an extremely close crossing bird, but I’d hit the one miles away moving fast.}

_{*Hump – I have no idea if there’s a correct term for the part of the gun that humps up between the stock and the shooting part.}

[HDAV]

It's a weird thing i am and have always been very left eye dom, but can still get a ghosting as my right eye tries to take over (often when tired) as i shoot left handed i get a ghost of the action which tells me i am not looking at the bird but the gun you need to work out how your eyes work for you and then apply the advice. Having tried everything from easy hit beads to spots and eventually shooting lefthanded Once your close then having a consistent mount and and good gun fit come into play...

[PAV331]

Can't beat Rigger's Eye.....

 

Wymberley, I've only been blessed with armourers eye unfortunately.

[wymberley]

Can't beat Rigger's Eye.....

 

Wymberley, I've only been blessed with armourers eye unfortunately.

 

That'll do for me!

[PAV331]

Ok. I got the eye dots through from Guns'n'stuff. I went for the number 3s (the recommended level of transparency for neutral eye dominance). After sticking one on in the correct position to my yellow lenses and mounting the gun, it was clear that it wasn't blocking out my left eye enough as I was still seeing a ghost image of the barrel. I played around with them a bit and found that I needed three of them stuck over the top of each other to completely get rid of the double vision. Mounting in a mirror confirmed good right eye alignment and gun fit.

 

 

Went to the clay ground this morning with my fingers crossed for any sort of improvement. My best round of English skeet to date was 23 (and I only done that once). First round 25/25 cleared!! My heart was in my mouth on the last stand, never experienced having 5 carts left for it! Next was the sporting layout, same story there, vast improvement. Its amazing what some well placed little clear stickers can do. Confidence is through the roof. I cant recommend this product for eye dominance issues enough. I was shooting with scotch tape over the left eye for a bit before trying them, so I was used to the sight picture they gave. You will probably have to give them a few rounds to 'relearn' your lead if you transition straight from shooting normally with both eyes open and no patch. I can't see much through it, just very blurred images, but it lets a lot more light through than scotch tape so I don't get that tunnel vision feeling. Defo worth I go if you suffer from a similar problem, just bare in mind that you may need a stronger patch than the Website recommends (they aren't that opaque). The best 15 quid I've ever spent, over the moon!

[wymberley]

Ok. I got the eye dots through from Guns'n'stuff. I went for the number 3s (the recommended level of transparency for neutral eye dominance). After sticking one on in the correct position to my yellow lenses and mounting the gun, it was clear that it wasn't blocking out my left eye enough as I was still seeing a ghost image of the barrel. I played around with them a bit and found that I needed three of them stuck over the top of each other to completely get rid of the double vision. Mounting in a mirror confirmed good right eye alignment and gun fit.

 

 

Went to the clay ground this morning with my fingers crossed for any sort of improvement. My best round of English skeet to date was 23 (and I only done that once). First round 25/25 cleared!! My heart was in my mouth on the last stand, never experienced having 5 carts left for it! Next was the sporting layout, same story there, vast improvement. Its amazing what some well placed little clear stickers can do. Confidence is through the roof. I cant recommend this product for eye dominance issues enough. I was shooting with scotch tape over the left eye for a bit before trying them, so I was used to the sight picture they gave. You will probably have to give them a few rounds to 'relearn' your lead if you transition straight from shooting normally with both eyes open and no patch. I can't see much through it, just very blurred images, but it lets a lot more light through than scotch tape so I don't get that tunnel vision feeling. Defo worth I go if you suffer from a similar problem, just bare in mind that you may need a stronger patch than the Website recommends (they aren't that opaque). The best 15 quid I've ever spent, over the moon!

 

Bravo!

 

Don't forget to bear in mind the overhead shots when you get around to them as you'll prabably need to adjust the patch a tad to suit.