Kes Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Gents, I have been having difficulty with my licensing authority in that they will not allow .243 for fox alone - I have a .223 but wanted a more 'wind resistant' calibre, as some shots taken are longer distance (200+yds and under windy conditions) and its a more versatile tool than a .22-50 IMHO. .243 is only given with 'booked stalking' and/or approved land with deer. I dont want to buy a .243 and find I cant get enough stalking/dont like it too much, so fox as an alternative would have allowed me to keep and use the gun sensibly (assuming the land is passed). I also dont want to give up my Remmy .223 as its a good straight shooter. However, as I do a bit of keepering on our DIY shoot (birds to wood now), and there are some large woods and a lot of land. I've been watching the ground in this muddy weather. Three times now I have found and photographed tracks of roe/fallow. Will post photos. Does this mean I have 'good reason' to apply for and be allowed a .243, subject to land clearance? Will the FEO accept photographic evidence or is there some 'rictual' to be followed to confirm I'm not telling porkies ? It may sound convenient but its actually true - I knew there were a few about locally (a number of escapees about 3 years ago) but I'm gobsmacked as I haven't yet seen one in daylight. Advice appreciated. Kes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) Gents, I have been having difficulty with my licensing authority in that they will not allow .243 for fox alone - I have a .223 but wanted a more 'wind resistant' calibre, as some shots taken are longer distance (200+yds and under windy conditions) and its a more versatile tool than a .22-50 IMHO. .243 is only given with 'booked stalking' and/or approved land with deer. I dont want to buy a .243 and find I cant get enough stalking/dont like it too much, so fox as an alternative would have allowed me to keep and use the gun sensibly (assuming the land is passed). I also dont want to give up my Remmy .223 as its a good straight shooter. However, as I do a bit of keepering on our DIY shoot (birds to wood now), and there are some large woods and a lot of land. I've been watching the ground in this muddy weather. Three times now I have found and photographed tracks of roe/fallow. Will post photos. Does this mean I have 'good reason' to apply for and be allowed a .243, subject to land clearance? Will the FEO accept photographic evidence or is there some 'rictual' to be followed to confirm I'm not telling porkies ? It may sound convenient but its actually true - I knew there were a few about locally (a number of escapees about 3 years ago) but I'm gobsmacked as I haven't yet seen one in daylight. Advice appreciated. Kes Kes... As long as you can prove (if they are asking for proof) you have deer on your permission and that you have authority to shoot 'em I can't see how they could conceivably refuse you. My stalking land is FC so unfortunately I can't take shooting guests otherwise you could have come upo to Scotland when I go! Get the photos.. droppings, couch marks, any tree damage... Can you borrow a trail cam? if so get some trail cam pics of the actual deer.. if they give you grief with that lot on the table I would just invoke the wrath of BASC Edited July 2, 2012 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 As always it depends on the force and how difficult they feel they should be? If it's a large wood and there are deer in your area then your large wood will contain deer - I don't see why it should be any more complicated than that but they may take a different view. Ask them, they are the only ones who can really answer your question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Why not offer to take the FLO onto your land and show him/her? Have your photos etc as well just in case. Be clear where they move etc and know where the safe shots on them could be taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 'Good reason to possess' is what the police are looking for and thats all you need to proove, when I had land cleared for my first 243 the FEO came out with me, was well conversed in local deer population and understood that deer populations do roam.He didnt need to see any evidence because he was a localish chap,in matter of fact he never made it out of his van. Just make sure you have good reason and its not just because you want a 243, at the end of the day a 223 is a better fox calibre generally and cheaper to feed. If you have good reason to get a 243 for deer don't forget the safe shooting aspects,make sure you mention you intend to install a high seat or two if needed. Be prepared though to have the possible hassle of doing the DSC1 and mentoring, which is well worth it if you are going to shoot a few deer but not if you just want a bigger calibre for fox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Your FEO is probably thinking like me, If you need a bigger gun to shoot foxes its possably because your field craft is not very good, there is verry little reason that you should not be able to get within 180 yards if you can not its because they are lamp shy and you have been shooting at them with a lamp and missing. There is no good reason to require a .243 rather than a .223 its good enough for the British army so why is it not good enough for foxes . I have taken over 350 foxes with a .223 to ranges of over 350 yards with out problems most shooting takes place at 70-130 yards wind should not be an issue Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Tbh I would just get BASC on it. I'd expect a .243 for fox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Kes Just remember that deer are transient and will not be present on a given patch of land all year round. I know of places where they only turn up for a month once a year. The decision will be your licensing managers, not the FEO's. Chances are your feo will not even see your variation. As has been said, having permission to shoot deer from your landowner "should" be sufficient good reason. It would be very unusual for documentry proof of evidence of deer to be requird. Also remember that, despite Deershooters daft comments, the .243 is a superb foxing/vermin caliber as so it should be. After all that's what it was designed for. Up here on the moorland in the winter, where the shots are long and the winds blowing I wouldn't use anything else. But then perhaps I don't have any field craft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 So do you want to buy some deer's feet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 So do you want to buy some deer's feet bye bye .243 OP Made I laff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Kes there is no real issue, basically the only issue you have is getting deer added. Put in a variation assuming you have land and the landowner has given the ok for deer then you have just reason. After that you are in the lap of the licensing gods they may just grant, they may ask for DSC and a mentor or just say no. Best option would be to book a stalk or two anyway use an estate rifle then you know if you will like it or not and have some element of deer experience to quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Kes there is no real issue, basically the only issue you have is getting deer added. Put in a variation assuming you have land and the landowner has given the ok for deer then you have just reason. After that you are in the lap of the licensing gods they may just grant, they may ask for DSC and a mentor or just say no. Best option would be to book a stalk or two anyway use an estate rifle then you know if you will like it or not and have some element of deer experience to quote. No real issue Al4x, I think thats not the best advice,never assume and you need good reason to apply for a variation with concrete permission.As for wildfowler250's comment, utter rubbish, BASC would not help you on this one and more and more forces are not allowing 243 as a designated fox calibre, right or wrong its a fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Your FEO is probably thinking like me, If you need a bigger gun to shoot foxes its possably because your field craft is not very good, there is verry little reason that you should not be able to get within 180 yards if you can not its because they are lamp shy and you have been shooting at them with a lamp and missing. There is no good reason to require a .243 rather than a .223 its good enough for the British army so why is it not good enough for foxes . I have taken over 350 foxes with a .223 to ranges of over 350 yards with out problems most shooting takes place at 70-130 yards wind should not be an issue Deershooter This guy might not have good reason as a .223 can handle 200 yds in wind, the shooter is the factor in this though- .243 will still drift significantly, the skill is in calling the dope or leaving it. Without being seen a bragger i can do that with my Hornet up to 10-15mph. The .223 aint good enough for the British forces if you consider the recent changes to personal weapon calibre for the current conflicts. 300 yds is were it starts to get harder for the average squady and once they are out in open country and longer range engagements away from the towns......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 I rest my case if you can not get within 300 yards of a fox you are doing it wrong Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 No real issue Al4x, I think thats not the best advice,never assume and you need good reason to apply for a variation with concrete permission.As for wildfowler250's comment, utter rubbish, BASC would not help you on this one and more and more forces are not allowing 243 as a designated fox calibre, right or wrong its a fact. His good reason would be deer on his ground or paid stalking. He never said designated fox but deer and fox it is perfectly reasonable. The one in my cabinet was aquired on that basis with conditions applied to use on deer but not foxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 I'm constantly amazed by the inconsistencies from one force to another concerning interpretations of HO guidelines regarding licensing. If you can show 'good reason' then you have fulfilled your obligation,insist your licensing dept' fulfills theirs.You obviously have experience of .223,so mentoring shouldn't be an issue regards the .243.but if it is,then I'm afraid you may be on your own;none of the shooting organisations will help as most conduct Stalking courses etc,of their own,so aren't about to shoot the golden goose are they. But like I said,if you can show 'good reason' then insist they issue,or move to Cumbria;you wont have a problem up here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 I can't really see the problem here. .243 is perfectly suitable for fox. If your 'good reason' is that a .243 is what you want to do the job with then that seems like a perfectly good reason to me. It's hardly as though you are wanting to do it with a 20mm anti-tank rifle and I don't think its remotely reasonable to advance the argument that .243 is somehow more dangerous than .223. You have to try and look at these debates from the side of the police. Are they really going to flatly refuse you a .243 for fox? If so then they have to be prepared for you to appeal it at court. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
provarmint Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Gents, I have been having difficulty with my licensing authority in that they will not allow .243 for fox alone - I have a .223 but wanted a more 'wind resistant' calibre, as some shots taken are longer distance (200+yds and under windy conditions) and its a more versatile tool than a .22-50 IMHO. .243 is only given with 'booked stalking' and/or approved land with deer. I dont want to buy a .243 and find I cant get enough stalking/dont like it too much, so fox as an alternative would have allowed me to keep and use the gun sensibly (assuming the land is passed). I also dont want to give up my Remmy .223 as its a good straight shooter. However, as I do a bit of keepering on our DIY shoot (birds to wood now), and there are some large woods and a lot of land. I've been watching the ground in this muddy weather. Three times now I have found and photographed tracks of roe/fallow. Will post photos. Does this mean I have 'good reason' to apply for and be allowed a .243, subject to land clearance? Will the FEO accept photographic evidence or is there some 'rictual' to be followed to confirm I'm not telling porkies ? It may sound convenient but its actually true - I knew there were a few about locally (a number of escapees about 3 years ago) but I'm gobsmacked as I haven't yet seen one in daylight. Advice appreciated. Kes Your dealing with Cheshire, notoriously difficult, I had to give up my .223 slot to have 6mm for fox alone, even then they tried to put it down fox while stalking until I asked how could I lamp fox with that condition ? They finally saw sense !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but they are not easy to deal with and not really very knowledgeable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 I can't really see the problem here. .243 is perfectly suitable for fox. If your 'good reason' is that a .243 is what you want to do the job with then that seems like a perfectly good reason to me. It's hardly as though you are wanting to do it with a 20mm anti-tank rifle and I don't think its remotely reasonable to advance the argument that .243 is somehow more dangerous than .223. You have to try and look at these debates from the side of the police. Are they really going to flatly refuse you a .243 for fox? If so then they have to be prepared for you to appeal it at court. J. you may not have a problem with it but I'm afraid its not your decision, if only life was that easy. I have my 243 for fox and deer, if I had applied for it just for fox and without DSC1 Gloucester force would have refuse the variation without question.Recently I tried to get two 243's on my license by asking for a 243 with N/V for fox, I was told no chance. So what would you appeal in court, that the police are wrong and you are right, they would just advise the obvious, get a .22centrefire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted July 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Kes... As long as you can prove (if they are asking for proof) you have deer on your permission and that you have authority to shoot 'em I can't see how they could conceivably refuse you. My stalking land is FC so unfortunately I can't take shooting guests otherwise you could have come upo to Scotland when I go! Get the photos.. droppings, couch marks, any tree damage... Can you borrow a trail cam? if so get some trail cam pics of the actual deer.. if they give you grief with that lot on the table I would just invoke the wrath of BASC Thanks Vipa and for the gentlemanly and kind offer. I'll let you know how it goes. Regards Kes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted July 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 I can't really see the problem here. .243 is perfectly suitable for fox. If your 'good reason' is that a .243 is what you want to do the job with then that seems like a perfectly good reason to me. It's hardly as though you are wanting to do it with a 20mm anti-tank rifle and I don't think its remotely reasonable to advance the argument that .243 is somehow more dangerous than .223. You have to try and look at these debates from the side of the police. Are they really going to flatly refuse you a .243 for fox? If so then they have to be prepared for you to appeal it at court. J. J I think the point here is they will not allow a .243 for fox. They will allow a .243 for deer and possibly for fox in pursuit of deer, the variation from force to force is huge and I may die of old age before I can shoot at a fox with a .243. Doesnt make sense but challenging them can cost an arm and a leg - I need mine to get close to foxes well 300yds anyway. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted July 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) So do you want to buy some deer's feet Kind offer but a bit 'bent'. Your heart is in the right place though ! Thanks His good reason would be deer on his ground or paid stalking. He never said designated fox but deer and fox it is perfectly reasonable. The one in my cabinet was aquired on that basis with conditions applied to use on deer but not foxes. Thanks Alex - good assessment as usual. kes Edited July 2, 2012 by Kes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) Kes Just remember that deer are transient and will not be present on a given patch of land all year round. I know of places where they only turn up for a month once a year. The decision will be your licensing managers, not the FEO's. Chances are your feo will not even see your variation. Spot on Kes! The thing is why should you have to provide photographic evidence of deer on your permission when the HO Guidelines say: 13.30 An applicant who wishes to shoot deer should name land which has the likelihood of the appropriate deer species being present, and an invitation, booking or authority to shoot. Many deer stalkers will rely on invitations to shoot on payment rather than be hired or paid to do so and may not be able to shoot regularly or frequently, though others may be permanently employed, for example Forestry Commission staff. Hunting large animals with powerful rifles requires particular skill, and applicants should generally have experience of firearms. Surely this is saying that as long as there is a likelihood of deer being present on your permission and you have permission to shoot them then you have "good reason" to apply for a deer suitable calibre! Edited July 3, 2012 by Frenchieboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Kind offer but a bit 'bent'. Your heart is in the right place though ! Thanks When you have a force who are difficult, you know that deer are present but can't find tracks often it's not unknown to run a pair of feet through a muddy gateway the night before the land inspection... I've never needed to do it myself but have sent a set of legs to a few people in the past. The way I see it you're not doing anything to con the police, rather just backing the evidence that you have yourself with visible proof for others to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 must be one perk of the Muntjac I've never heard Herts suggesting anywhere wouldn't have deer on it. Realistically if the landowner will sign the permission slip with deer on it that should be adequate unless they want to go round calling them liars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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