fieldwanderer Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Myself and my shooting buddy have recently been given a new permission, neither of us have seen it yet as the guy's doing written permission for us and will show us 'round when he can (I hope!). I gather he's got a fair bit of land dotted about and looking at the map of the areas there's a good chance that some of it's big areas well away from anything so, assuming it happens, I'm going to put in for a bigger rifle for the foxes that he wants sorting. I'm no stranger to rifles really but I'm not sure how I'd go about choosing a caliber, I'd like a .243 really as I'll then have the option of deer at a later date without needing to buy / borrow another gun but I've got a feeling the firearms people would want me to keep it to some sort of a minimum. Can someone explain it all to me please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bolt94 Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Myself and my shooting buddy have recently been given a new permission, neither of us have seen it yet as the guy's doing written permission for us and will show us 'round when he can (I hope!). I gather he's got a fair bit of land dotted about and looking at the map of the areas there's a good chance that some of it's big areas well away from anything so, assuming it happens, I'm going to put in for a bigger rifle for the foxes that he wants sorting. I'm no stranger to rifles really but I'm not sure how I'd go about choosing a caliber, I'd like a .243 really as I'll then have the option of deer at a later date without needing to buy / borrow another gun but I've got a feeling the firearms people would want me to keep it to some sort of a minimum. Can someone explain it all to me please? If you want a .243 my advice would be go and do your DSC1 that way you are showing evidence that you have intent to use the rifle for deer in the future. Part of the DSC1 is Rifle safety and it involves a shooting assessment this in my opinion would be your best approach. It would also be worth installing a smaller safe to sore your bolt in if you don't already do that, this may reassure the FEO on inspection that you are taking all reasonable precautions and are a fairly sensible bloke! Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inthedark Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Just ask someone to take you out first, you'll soon get an idea of what suits. If you've no foxing experience, especially at night, you would definately benefit from a bit of instruction on potential dangers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldwanderer Posted July 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Just ask someone to take you out first, you'll soon get an idea of what suits. If you've no foxing experience, especially at night, you would definately benefit from a bit of instruction on potential dangers. That's fair enough and I'd be more than happy to do so - what makes it different to using a rifle for anything else in the dark though (Not arguing, you learn something new every day....)? To my mind, the principles are the same as for rabbits except for identifying your quarry before taking the shot which kinda goes without saying. My bolts are all stored seperately but are hidden rather than locked away (due to lack of suitable places for another safe)the F.E.O (flo?) knows about this already. So, generally, something along the lines of a .223 or a .22hornet would be considered the most you can have for charlie alone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bolt94 Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Apologies in NI it is a FEO, why can't it all be made uniform :L If you can show you have a need for a .243 then I can't see you having an issue getting it. All the can say is no, then just apply for a .222 or what about a 22-250? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldwanderer Posted July 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 It's the caliber issue I wanted to discuss really - Much as I'd like the .243 as it'll save me money in years to come, I've never really given centrefires any serious thought; the permission we've had up to now is too small to use one on and I can't justify the cost for paper punching at the range (and already have an excellent match rifle). I've never looked into ammunition costs, effective ranges or even which makers are considered the best so any info is much appreciated I don't even know what calibers are considered the "norm" for general use for a given quarry - I'd imagine .222, .223, 22-250 and the like are considered suitable for fox and (iirc) are o.k. for muntjack so I suppose they'd be plenty for me for now and maybe even all I'll ever want realistically. The safety issue isn't such a problem at the moment, I've been shooting with air rifles, rimfires and shotguns for years, including two years with the national rifle squads and four international matches as well as twenty years or so in the field (though I've no problem at all with going through it all again from time to time). Erm, I should've asked slightly differently really - I'm likely to need a centrefire, mostly for fox (though I'd like to do some stalking sometime), what caliber and advice can you offer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornfree Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 I have a 243 just for fox.its on the approved list for fox. bornfree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsportshooter Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 what exactly are you asking?? What caliber for foxes? well there are many but it boils down to your preference, ability and financial capability. Foxes can be taken with anything from .17HMR (often frowned upon for no reason if within a suitable range) through .17 rem, .20 tac,.22 hornet, .222, 22.250, 223, 243 up to and above .308 It really is your decision but if you are on a closed ticket you may wish to choose the lesser of the calibers as the land you have/gain is more likely to be approved... M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 The ideal caliber really depends on the ranges your shooting it at, and sometimes cost can be a factor. A .243 is a great foxing round, but it's not cheap on ammo (which may not be an issue unless your shooting a lot, also reloading keeps the costs down if you choose to go that route). If your ranges aren't great then it may be more gun than is required, a .22 hornet is capable on foxes to 200 yards, a .223 has a lot more punch and is a good foxing round. A 22-250 is very similar to the .243. Personally if shooting beyond 200 ish often I'd be inclined to go for something like a .243/22-250, simply because although a smaller caliber is still enough it's nice to make sure something is dead when it's hit. As to getting a .243, many forces will allow it for foxes - if there are deer on the land then if you ask to shoot at them then the police can't refuse you one for fox and deer. You might need mentoring before or after getting the certificate, different forces vary on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldwanderer Posted July 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Just asking for general advice really, I've told you pretty much as much as I know at the moment. I was told my certificate was opened and sent some forms to let them know where I'd be shooting but the wording hasn't changed so I need to speak to the flo about that too. If .243's acceptable for fox (no doubt that varies with police force too) that's great! I'll give the flo a ring when I know a bit more about where we can shoot, what sort of criteria would he be looking for with regards the land it'll be used on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 They might still require you to have a mentor for a center-fire, and quite possibly a closed ticket relating to that caliber. As to the land, the police need to be satisfied that it's safe to shoot on. It needs to have backstops, hills/valleys/mounds etc are good, basically it needs to be safe to shoot in most directions. Any footpaths on it will be noted (though they aren't normally any kind of problem). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsportshooter Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Just asking for general advice really, I've told you pretty much as much as I know at the moment. I was told my certificate was opened and sent some forms to let them know where I'd be shooting but the wording hasn't changed so I need to speak to the flo about that too. If .243's acceptable for fox (no doubt that varies with police force too) that's great! I'll give the flo a ring when I know a bit more about where we can shoot, what sort of criteria would he be looking for with regards the land it'll be used on? If the conditions on your cert state blah blah blah ' over land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police' or words to that effect then you have a closed cert. If it states 'over land which the holder has permisssion to shoot' or words to that effect then its open. Re Calibers - I beleive in the principle that you cant 'over' kill anything, if its dead its dead the only issue, asside from cost and ability, is whether YOU are capable of judging the situation and making a rational and safe decision to take a shot with any particular caliber, that is what the FLOs will want to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldwanderer Posted July 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 It says the chief constable variety - even after what I was told, which is why I need to speak to them. I can't see my judgement being a problem, I've proved myself so far BUT it is notoriously flat around here which may well be the deciding factor. Which calibers are most cost effective (I'd happily reload if it helps)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisheruk Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 .223 for my vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 It says the chief constable variety - even after what I was told, which is why I need to speak to them. I can't see my judgement being a problem, I've proved myself so far BUT it is notoriously flat around here which may well be the deciding factor. Which calibers are most cost effective (I'd happily reload if it helps)? Any of the centrefire calibres will kill a fox very dead at 200yds if the shot is good, from .22 Hornet to 50 BMG. The .50 cal wont kill them any more dead but has very clear extra safety conserns. 200yds is in reality a long way over flat arable fields and air rifle or shotgun experiance will not be counted towards an application towards a bigger .243. in fairness the easiest and maybee the best route might be a .223 rem as it will do all you will be capable of in terms of ranges for some time, is easy enough to moderate, comes in a range of rifles and is very easy to get ammo for with a long barrel life. I use a .243 for foxing but its a specialst tool for the hills and high winds were i live and werever i can i turn to the .22 hornet as you simply dont need a sledge hammer to crack a nut and it can be counter productive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldwanderer Posted July 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Edit: Sorry, thanks to all that offered an informal answer. I'll speak to my F.l.o, he knows enough about my experience not to be quite as judgemental as some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Edit: Sorry, thanks to all that offered an informal answer. I'll speak to my F.l.o, he knows enough about my experience not to be quite as judgemental as some. speak to him and say you will be wanting to shoot deer in the future and would like to have a caliber capable of both, it means in theory you don't then ned two setups. You have shotgun and rimfire experience so you can't really have much more technically. If you can get some centerfire experience then fine but otherwise just apply, it helps if you have a permission slip that the landowner will put deer on as that will clinch things. If not you can mention paid stalks and it may be worth doing some to show some experience with centerfires and deer. You should get it because you can't use anything smaller on deer whether they add conditions you then need to work with them and get them removed over time. I made the mistake really of going smaller centerfire and then .243 result an extra gun that hardly comes out, though I'm trying to make the effort to get it out more at the moment. Cost of ammunition etc isn't that huge if you don't do much target shooting if its mostly foxes etc its well worth the money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Edit: Sorry, thanks to all that offered an informal answer. I'll speak to my F.l.o, he knows enough about my experience not to be quite as judgemental as some. sorry but other than security and "not being a nutter in disgiuse" Firearms depts dont consider airguns and shotguns as centrefire experiance. Reason is fall out zones are just so much greater. Rimfire is of some use though the guidelines saying "training" or "relivent experiance" are the very reason we now see mentor conditions and DSC 1 being stipulated so much now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 speak to him and say you will be wanting to shoot deer in the future and would like to have a caliber capable of both, it means in theory you don't then ned two setups. You have shotgun and rimfire experience so you can't really have much more technically. If you can get some centerfire experience then fine but otherwise just apply, it helps if you have a permission slip that the landowner will put deer on as that will clinch things. If not you can mention paid stalks and it may be worth doing some to show some experience with centerfires and deer. You should get it because you can't use anything smaller on deer whether they add conditions you then need to work with them and get them removed over time. I made the mistake really of going smaller centerfire and then .243 result an extra gun that hardly comes out, though I'm trying to make the effort to get it out more at the moment. Cost of ammunition etc isn't that huge if you don't do much target shooting if its mostly foxes etc its well worth the money Do you honestly feel you now kill foxes when out with the .243 that you couldn't with your .223? I see the advantage in one gun if you genuinely also stalk deer, as a user i see some in areas like myself are also better off with a .243 for foxing but has all this bigger gun thread that comes up so often at present got some chance of negative impact comming our way? Especially with new applicants? I see that Lancs are getting less keen on 22-250 grants in favour of the smaller .22 centrefires (obviously i personally know there is no real difference in danger levels but the fact is the authorities don't always seem to) .243 win with 100 grn deer bullets is an extra risk factor, yet with lighter more frangible varmint bullets it can be the reverce (its just hard for the authorities to understand this) In thier eyes bigger= more danger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Do you honestly feel you now kill foxes when out with the .243 that you couldn't with your .223? I see the advantage in one gun if you genuinely also stalk deer, as a user i see some in areas like myself are also better off with a .243 for foxing but has all this bigger gun thread that comes up so often at present got some chance of negative impact comming our way? Especially with new applicants? I see that Lancs are getting less keen on 22-250 grants in favour of the smaller .22 centrefires (obviously i personally know there is no real difference in danger levels but the fact is the authorities don't always seem to) .243 win with 100 grn deer bullets is an extra risk factor, yet with lighter more frangible varmint bullets it can be the reverce (its just hard for the authorities to understand this) In thier eyes bigger= more danger I shoot foxes with a .222 which is little different to a .223 in the real world. Its more than enough at 300 yds and 300 yds on a typical lowland farm is a pretty decent range. Open upland is a different matter and I too would have a .243 or possibly a .25-06 as a duel purpose rifle. How are these foxes going to be shot? On lowland terrain unless shooting from a dedicated and suitably adapted vehicle with a driver and a lamp-man most people are going to be shooting off sticks. I've shot foxes at 300 yds off sticks and its plenty far enough. If you're shooting baited sites from cover then you're in control and the range can be kept shorter. On typical rolling hill terrain of mixed grazing and arable fields, which is most lowland farms, I've never found a 300/350 yd working limit in any way restrictive. I'd go for a .223/.222 (I was happy to buy either but went for the triple because a bargain came my way). If you get into stalking later vary your ticket to suit when the time comes. Jumping straight in with a deer-legal calibre with no CF experience and no mentor is asking a lot the way things are, but you can always ask. Trying to anticipate your future shooting and planning too far ahead with rifles and variations doesn't always work and it isn't popular with FEOs (they want to know why you want a rifle now, not why it may come in handy in the future). Sometimes its better to take one step at a time and spend the £26 as and when. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Do you honestly feel you now kill foxes when out with the .243 that you couldn't with your .223? I see the advantage in one gun if you genuinely also stalk deer, as a user i see some in areas like myself are also better off with a .243 for foxing but has all this bigger gun thread that comes up so often at present got some chance of negative impact comming our way? Especially with new applicants? I see that Lancs are getting less keen on 22-250 grants in favour of the smaller .22 centrefires (obviously i personally know there is no real difference in danger levels but the fact is the authorities don't always seem to) .243 win with 100 grn deer bullets is an extra risk factor, yet with lighter more frangible varmint bullets it can be the reverce (its just hard for the authorities to understand this) In thier eyes bigger= more danger Have to agree with you kent, my local firearms dept are getting tighter on calibres over 223 for fox. Its just part of human nature to want more and I think all of us are guilty of wanted more than we actually need. I always wanted a 308 then a farm I shoot over had some boar damage and I secured some deer culling for Natural England ( they follow Forestry commission on calibre choice for fallow). When I first got the rifle I was out with it all the time, Munties, Roe, any excuse to take it out, a year later and it spends a leisurly break in the cabinet until August unless the pigs are out. Great calibre but the 243 I find is more versitile in lower bullet weights to 85gr. The same for 223, if your shooting 50gr bullets ( ideal for quick kill on fox ) then the 223 is plenty enough and less powder will not wear the barrel out. Horses for courses, if you need to shoot deer and fox then 243 is great but if your out after fox night after night and a deer only passes through your county every five years then 223 or other .22 centrefire. On the other hand if you have fox, Munties,Roe, Fallow and pigs then 243 and 308 would be ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Do you honestly feel you now kill foxes when out with the .243 that you couldn't with your .223? I see the advantage in one gun if you genuinely also stalk deer, as a user i see some in areas like myself are also better off with a .243 for foxing but has all this bigger gun thread that comes up so often at present got some chance of negative impact comming our way? Especially with new applicants? I see that Lancs are getting less keen on 22-250 grants in favour of the smaller .22 centrefires (obviously i personally know there is no real difference in danger levels but the fact is the authorities don't always seem to) .243 win with 100 grn deer bullets is an extra risk factor, yet with lighter more frangible varmint bullets it can be the reverce (its just hard for the authorities to understand this) In thier eyes bigger= more danger My .223 is a remi 700 my .243 is a sako finlight there is a big difference in use and also lugging it about. I do shoot deer and intend keeping on doing so, I could shoot most foxes with the .223 and it would be cheaper but that's fairly irrelevant. In practice I could do everything with one rifle and deer mean that it would be the larger one. In this case he expressed an interest in deer so there is a natural choice, down here our police depts tend to agree, but we do have some of the more sensible ones. They also do accept a shooting history as being part way to showing an ability to be safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 My .223 is a remi 700 my .243 is a sako finlight there is a big difference in use and also lugging it about. I do shoot deer and intend keeping on doing so, I could shoot most foxes with the .223 and it would be cheaper but that's fairly irrelevant. In practice I could do everything with one rifle and deer mean that it would be the larger one. In this case he expressed an interest in deer so there is a natural choice, down here our police depts tend to agree, but we do have some of the more sensible ones. They also do accept a shooting history as being part way to showing an ability to be safe. If I had a sako finlight I would be taking it out for fox,deer,pigs, even rabbits for that matter Drrroooool, lovely rifle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 It is nice and does spoil you a bit when clambering up high seats and even when just wandering its easy to carry. I'm very glad I spent the extra over a t3 and really it just means its not a rifle I will change. That said I took the remi out last night for a sit and once I'd sat long enough popped a few rabbits with it with nv which I'd probably have left with the .243 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 I have a 243 just for fox.its on the approved list for fox. bornfree dead on mine was initially conditioned for fox then I got deer added when I needed it. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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