jasper3 Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) the Truth is, toleration is the hardest thing to achieve, this thread is proving that, we may say we respect others beliefs yet we still try to prove them wrong..... without doubt religion is a powerful tool even to the point where people say I don't believe , yet in the same breath say if there is a god and i have lived a clean and honest life etc etc proving there must be some doubt in some peoples mind.... that is the power of teachings or as i look at them, brain washing I am off to a Humanist funeral this wednesday to say goodbye to a cousin, we will celebrate his life ,his time on earth is done..end of... his memory will live on in those who were close to him, that is a fact Edited September 24, 2012 by jasper3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Faith is one thing but touting something as erroneous as the Cain and Abel story is just the tip of the iceberg and that is what I was getting on at, however as the mudslingers and mockers got involved I went off on a tangent, my apologies. People have a habit, me included, to go off down a single route that they think is correct and press the return key. It would have been much easier to have, in the case above to have checked the facts first, the poster above did not, however this now means I have to correct them and this seems to have the effect of upsetting people because I`m either arrogant or preaching, perhaps I should have just called him a few expletives and that his parents shouldn`t have been brother and sister or all the other wrong things that get said here, but that would be wrong. If I appear preachy or arrogant because I am trying to correct errors or get people to balance views, then I`m sorry. If I go off on a tangent, I`m sorry, it`s probably to do with someone baiting me or bringing something else to debate (I still can`t understand the calendar thing). Yes we all have different views, great I have no problems there, but I say again, if someone says something which is wrong, then it is only right for someone else to point it out, that is why I started this topic. Debate about belief is another thing altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robl Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Speaking of checking facts. Have you checked the facts of the Cain and Abel story. Are you aware of them in any other source material? Do you know how they are described in the Jewish Religions which use a similar old testament? How about Muslim religions? How about any other religions which may have similar stories? Have you read any of the older version of the Bible or just the recent King James version? Do you know if their names are spelt differently in other books and have perhaps been translated badly? If a person has read the bible and considers the story of Eden and Cain and Abel to be a parable rather than a literal are they wrong? Have you considered that yourself? If the heads of Christianity had a meeting and decided that Genesis was no longer an official part of the Bible would you stop believing in it? How about if it’s wasn’t Genesis then, but Leviticus? Would removing Leviticus have any bearing on your faith? Would you follow the old version of the bible or the new version? It’s for reasons like this that I see God and Religion as two very different things. One is a personal belief in something bigger. The other is a wide ranging system that can be quaint tradition all the way up to warmongering politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) test 1 Edited September 24, 2012 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 test 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Speaking of checking facts. Have you checked the facts of the Cain and Abel story. OK, the facts, the poster claimed one thing, the only source said another, he is wrong, no other explanation unless he hit a load of random keys on the keyboard. Are you aware of them in any other source material? Do you know how they are described in the Jewish Religions which use a similar old testament? Similar OT but same books, or scrolls in some cases. How about Muslim religions? How about any other religions which may have similar stories? Enuma elish, Gilgamesh? Have you read any of the older version of the Bible or just the recent King James version? NIV, ESV, GNB, NLT..... Do you know if their names are spelt differently in other books and have perhaps been translated badly? Translated contextually as Biblical Hebrew doesn`t have the vowels so Jehovah is really Yahweh or might even be Yahoo, a throwback to the diaspora If a person has read the bible and considers the story of Eden and Cain and Abel to be a parable rather than a literal are they wrong? Have you considered that yourself? Yep, or even an allegory. If the heads of Christianity had a meeting and decided that Genesis was no longer an official part of the Bible would you stop believing in it? How about if it’s wasn’t Genesis then, but Leviticus? Would removing Leviticus have any bearing on your faith? Not faith, that is immutable but as for my ecclesiology, possibly, but then again no as I don`t hold to some of the tosh that comes from head office and am only CoS nominally, it isn`t my denomination it is only where I go to worship as it is full of friends and is 400yds away. My church is where I do my work. Would you follow the old version of the bible or the new version? I follow the teachings of Christ. I read the rest of the Bible as a way of knowing how he came to be and how to live a life that is right with him and to learn the wrong ways of those who went before. It’s for reasons like this that I see God and Religion as two very different things. One is a personal belief in something bigger. The other is a wide ranging system that can be quaint tradition all the way up to warmongering politics. These examples are neither God nor religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robl Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) It’s for reasons like this that I see God and Religion as two very different things. One is a personal belief in something bigger. The other is a wide ranging system that can be quaint tradition all the way up to warmongering politics. These examples are neither God nor religion. Yes they are. They may not be your interpretation of God or Religion but they are interpretations of others. I get the impression you think people should investigate and reconsider things because you want them to come to the same conclusions as you. You seem to be saying that if everyone had done the same research as you then you would have the same beliefs and opinions. You advocate further research, but you have no acceptance of different conclusions or final opinions. That may not be your intention, but that’s the impression I get from reading your posts on this thread. I believe that presented with the same source material people can come to very different conclusions, and their conclusions are equally as valid as anyone else’s. I may disagree with them, but I won’t tell them to go away and do more research until they agree with me. I accept people rights to believe different things. This is true of politics, religion and even science. Edited September 24, 2012 by Robl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Technically an Athiest believes in something! Even though it is in the lack of a higher authority. My dear old grandad who was a committed christian used to say that when he was in the trenches during ww1 he never found an athiest . Harnser . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robl Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Here’s another idea into the mix. Is there a difference between belief and worship? Can you believe in God without worshiping him? Can you worship without believing? Can you believe but condemn? Is it valid for someone to read the bible, to believe that God exists, but to consider him to be a £$%& and to refuse to worship him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 This discussion is going nowhere but at least the last page of entries have not been "contributions" based on puerile mickey taking. Yes, I got the gig with Henry D's original post from the off, basically because he highlights a fundmental flaw in the popular misconceptions held by an alramingly high proportion of the public. In hindsight perhaps Henry should have chosen something other than religion to make his point. Perhaps Freemasonry would have been a better choice, but there again... I don't have much more to say on all this other than to repeat that my beliefs are far more aligned with the likes of Vipa and Robl than Henry D. So for us God and conventional religion are different. Hold on, I wasn't going t say much more. Damn. But, as already stated, that isn't - or at least wasn't - the point here... Hopefully the next thread started on religion / faith / God on here focusses more on people stating what they believe and why they believe it without the snipers trying to ridicule them. The real fools / losers in this thread are the ones with nothing useful to contribute but at least they are in the minority. Harnser you make a valid point and not very contentious one in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) I don't respect religion, but I do respect people. I have no problem with faith or belief in God(s). But I do have a serious problem when this faith effects other people (homosexual marriage, abortion etc) or tries to get involved with politics or into the science classroom. Then we have problems. Edited September 24, 2012 by gazzthompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 My dear old grandad who was a committed christian used to say that when he was in the trenches during ww1 he never found an athiest . Harnser . That's more than llikely bacause, when faced with the real likelyhood of iminent death, people will grasp at anything they can to give them comfort and a belief that there will be something more after thier departure from this mortal coil.. it doesn't prove anything, it just shows that all of the 'facts' they were instilled with about god, heaven, JC etc.. at an early age never go away... Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man.... Very difficult to re wire the neural pathways and engrams if they have been burned in during the first years of life... Children don't question, they just accept that what a grown up tells them as true... and that, unfortunately, is the end of it! Perhaps if children were not introduced to religion until they were old enough to view it rationally, say, 14 or 15... we would not have the situation we have today! As a point of interest, soldiers dying on the beaches of Dunkirque were apparently far more likely to be crying out for thier mums than some mythical saviour! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) henry mate do you have a lot of time on your hands, this threads a novel Edited September 24, 2012 by storme37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 I wonder whether the modern risk-averse no-pain mentality mitigates against traditional Christianity, especially of the more firey Jesuit Catholic variety. If you accept the possibility of salvation and eternal life you must equally accept the possiblity of damnation and eternal torment. We are living in a deluded age. Western liberal democracies have produced the expectation that all pain, unpleasentness and anguish will be magically smoothed away without effort or sacrifice from the individual. The grave bargain struck by Christian belief is probably too much for many people. They haven't the stomach for Pascal's wager. They prefer the cotton-wool oblivion of Humanism and the benign atheism of science. Belief in a sentient and possibly vengeful creator isn't irrelevent, its just too hot to handle. And yes I know I'm generalising! But I bet its true of millions of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 I wonder whether the modern risk-averse no-pain mentality mitigates against traditional Christianity, especially of the more firey Jesuit Catholic variety. (Yea, don`t get me started on them either) If you accept the possibility of salvation and eternal life you must equally accept the possiblity of damnation and eternal torment. We are living in a deluded age. Western liberal democracies have produced the expectation that all pain, unpleasentness and anguish will be magically smoothed away without effort or sacrifice from the individual. The grave bargain struck by Christian belief is probably too much for many people. They haven't the stomach for Pascal's wager. They prefer the cotton-wool oblivion of Humanism and the benign atheism of science. Belief in a sentient and possibly vengeful creator isn't irrelevent, its just too hot to handle. As a generalisation I would tend to agree that it isn`t too far from the mark, perhaps our cosseted environment and busy lives preclude us from even thinking about it. There is also the others in the pews who think that if they turn up on a Sunday and nothing else means they are OK in God`s eyes....... And yes I know I'm generalising! But I bet its true of millions of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST3V3 Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 god created everything in six days and on the 7th he rested (im not going into detail as i'll get slated for putting egg before chicken) with this in mind why do people go church on sunday the 1st day not the 7th? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Because it is a random day, we will never know which day of the week is first or last, biblically, however the important thing was to have a day of rest, which included all slaves as well as free men. There are lots of other ideals such a Jubilee years etc which were all part of the Torah and if we were to be strict it would be from friday eve to saturday eve as the bible says "And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day." so days are eve to eve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Because it is a random day, we will never know which day of the week is first or last, It has been estimated that it was 14.6 Billion years ago, about 4.30pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Pfft, don`t give me estimates I want answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) Pfft, don`t give me estimates I want answers. Ah, there we have it Henry! Man's problem in three words. "I want answers"! You may want them, but you don't need them. "All the problems in the world are caused by Man's inability to sit quietly in an empty room." Who said that? Descarte or Pascal? Anyone know? See what I mean? We want to know too much. Edited September 24, 2012 by Gimlet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 (edited) ok it makes sense now there is proof of god, he made every thing right? ok he's chinese. cmon you know this is the best theory so far with the most evidence. Edited September 25, 2012 by storme37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonblasterian Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Jesus Christ i thought this thread would have ended by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 (edited) Jesus Christ i thought this thread would have ended by now. Oh come on.... Have you tried to get rid of Jovis or Mormons from your doorstep.... they are all programmed to keep banging on! Edited September 25, 2012 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper3 Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Oh come on.... Have you tried to get rid of Jovis or Mormons from your doorstep.... they are all programmed to keep banging on! I do enjoy those conversations sometimes no need to be rude, just explain they are wasting their time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Oh come on.... Have you tried to get rid of Jovis or Mormons from your doorstep.... they are all programmed to keep banging on! As are you, judging by the length of your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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