Kes Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 This calibre is so new that in my recent FAC renewal, I applied for one for vermin and fox - to carry a single rifle rather than 2. My force have little data on the calibre but are suggesting it may get approval only for fox - as it has a similar velocity to a .223. I make no comment about that but I did explain a bit about bullet weights etc. Is anyone else having any problems - better still has anyone had one approved in Cheshire for vermin and fox or any other combinations of quarry/uses? (My .223 is on an open cert so I'd expect a .17 on open too - reasonable?) Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 That would be from an FEO who has no idea what he's talking about but trying to look like he does. There is more to shooting than velocity - and the home office guidance indicates 17 cal (17REM actually) can be considered a cross-over calibre for the very reason you cite. Stand your ground there Kes and point out to them that a .223 is more than you would need or want for 60 yard rabbits for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Oh dear you are with Cheshire, best of luck mate. Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Well to start with I have a .17 Hornet on my ticket for vermin, fox and any other lawful quarry (Gloucestershire). Firearms departments have a funny way of judging things sometimes, especially when they don't understand them. As DaveG stated above the .17 Remington is considered a suitable crossover and that will give several hundred fps more for any given bullet weight than the Hornet. If you want to rock the boat and push your point home maybe you should also point out that the .458 magnum shoots at a similar velocity to the .17HMR so maybe one of those would be more suitable in their opinion? A recent range day test of just this calibre gave approximately 4" of penetration into ballistic soap. The HMR on the other had sent fragments right through the block which was approximately 10" long from memory. The round offers under 600ft-lbs at the muzzle and energy is what matters rather than velocity when deciding what quarry is acceptable for a given round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 ok write to them don't speak on phone. Point out that the .17 Hornet is just the .22 Hornet which comes under H.O guidelines for both vermin and fox but with a lighter bullet in place of the heavier .22 version. Ask them to respond in writing why they dont think a lighter bullet carrying less energy at a higher velocity is a good idea for general vermin. Can you show us the response when you get it, i don't think you will get anywere(due to your previous requests in part) but it will make an amuzing read LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 ok write to them don't speak on phone. Point out that the .17 Hornet is just the .22 Hornet which comes under H.O guidelines for both vermin and fox but with a lighter bullet in place of the heavier .22 version. Ask them to respond in writing why they dont think a lighter bullet carrying less energy at a higher velocity is a good idea for general vermin. Can you show us the response when you get it, i don't think you will get anywere(due to your previous requests in part) but it will make an amuzing read LOL Kent, I will print the reply for the 'general good' by the way, I now apparently have a .243 for deer on my new ticket and a fuller knowledge of why my request to have one on the ground I shoot was 'refused'. That reason also relates to the response I received to shoot what appear to be munjac - "you wont get a .223 etc etc". However I will PM you about that as its 'rather strange' and would identify personalities to some on here but I am grateful to the police for telling me the real reason - you couldnt invent this story. I have no cert at the moment - waiting for the response on the .17 hornet before they issue it. When I asked about no cert and shooting - it is the shooting season, I was told not to worry - I was on the system and could shoot. Quite a difficult couple of months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12borejimbo Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 I have recently sent my ticket in for a variation on the .17 hornet as I tried it the other day and thought it was a great little round! Proven so much so on the ballistic soap as NJC mentioned, it dumped all its energy straight away whereas the HMR zipped straight through! I have asked for Fox and vermin control on my conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 I have an opinion on this but will keep it to myself for now. That's a first for here; are you sure that you're on the right forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 I have recently sent my ticket in for a variation on the .17 hornet as I tried it the other day and thought it was a great little round! Proven so much so on the ballistic soap as NJC mentioned, it dumped all its energy straight away whereas the HMR zipped straight through! I have asked for Fox and vermin control on my conditions. personally I'd question whether thats a good thing, but echoes my experience with the HMR on foxes it does penetrate very well. Some quarry you want explosion but whether it makes it a good fox round or not we shall see. This postcode lottery on conditions is all bull, I just have pest control and deer no mention of what guns just on the whole lot so much simpler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 personally I'd question whether thats a good thing, but echoes my experience with the HMR on foxes it does penetrate very well. Some quarry you want explosion but whether it makes it a good fox round or not we shall see. This postcode lottery on conditions is all bull, I just have pest control and deer no mention of what guns just on the whole lot so much simpler. Well to start with I have a .17 Hornet on my ticket for vermin, fox and any other lawful quarry (Gloucestershire). Firearms departments have a funny way of judging things sometimes, especially when they don't understand them. As DaveG stated above the .17 Remington is considered a suitable crossover and that will give several hundred fps more for any given bullet weight than the Hornet. If you want to rock the boat and push your point home maybe you should also point out that the .458 magnum shoots at a similar velocity to the .17HMR so maybe one of those would be more suitable in their opinion? A recent range day test of just this calibre gave approximately 4" of penetration into ballistic soap. The HMR on the other had sent fragments right through the block which was approximately 10" long from memory. The round offers under 600ft-lbs at the muzzle and energy is what matters rather than velocity when deciding what quarry is acceptable for a given round. Like NJC, mine is conditioned for fox, vermin, and any other lawful species through east yorkshire, so at elast some forces know what they are doing. To Al4X's point, the 17 AH has proven a very good fox caliber for specific situations. In the US it is used for fur hunters so that you have a pencil hole in and no exit wound. Lots of foxes are killed with the 17 hornet every year. Now foxing here is very different. If you're out at night in inclement weather, then of course the 17 AH probably isn't the round you want. But for a walkaround gun to shoot anything under 200 yards you're in good shape. Per the balistic gelatin test- I'd like to see the results. I'm shooting 20's around 3600 and I can shoot a broadside rabbit and not have an exit wound if I want to which correlates pretty well with what you're saying. At the same time, a slightly different placement and things get messy. thanks, rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Well I've had a final chat with Liz in the firearms section about my co-terminus renewal, who went through everything with me. I'm retaining a .22LR (for subsonics and shorter ranges) The .17 hornet has been confirmed for vermin and fox by Chesire, just a day or so after raising a query I am retaining the .223 ( conditioned just for fox) but Cheshire are looking seriously at adding 'all lawful quarry' to the majority of approvals and that would allow me to shoot munjac etc - another thing I had asked for. I am getting a .243 (conditioned for deer and fox whilst in pursuit of deer, closed and 'with an experienced stalker' initially). I dont have a problem with that. After a number of stalks, I can have that reviewed and with any lawful quarry added - perfect. I asked if, as i'm stalking reds, I could put it in for a one for one variation for a .308. No problem. Once I can obtain a letter confirming experience from an experienced stalker, the rifle will be opened. All I asked for and I was asked if I was happy with the conditions. Since I can get an open cert and the deer rifle I want, probably within the year, I think it is very reasonable and said so. Cheshire are clearly being reasonable and Liz in particular, very helpful. It all goes to show me that it isnt always the police who foul things up - in this case it was another person. My thanks to the firearms unit and for dealing so reasonably with me - my personal thanks to Liz who will now be my favoured contact in the unit - she may yet come to regret being so helpful !!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12borejimbo Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Ballistic gel/soap results, its obvious which one is the HMR and which is the .17 Hornet. It was a joy to shoot, no recoil whatsoever and I put 3 bullets on top of each other from a standard Savage rifle with an OK trigger and a weaver scope. I took a mate with me who has hardly an experience but wanted to come for the day and see what it was about, he had a go and managed to do well with it. If you reload it takes 12g of powder to do 3600fps. Very cheap indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Jim, What diameter is the 'ball' of a hole from the hornet? Looks about 4" diameter? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 It was about 3" round. the hmr was around 1" but full track though the soap. factor loads give 3650fps. they say its a mild loading but from what I and others have seen, i would say it was that mild. I do like the idea of the trigger on the savage but i didnt like a few other things about them. im going to wait for a while to see if a 22 comes up to use as a donor rifle or cz start turning them out. ATB Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12borejimbo Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Looks about 4 inches, was a lovely rifle and round! I am certainly impressed! Looking forward to getting one but will be about 6 months! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 Hi Phil, Jim, Thanks a bunch. That's about what I expected. The 17 hornet is indeed a lovely round to shoot. I have a short-ish barrel at 18" and I'm pushing 3600-3625 with a bit over 12 grains of a non optimized powder and no pressure signs. I imagine I could hit 3700 with VVN 120, but buying 1 kg isn't on the cards at the moment since I don't really need it. If speed was the purpose, I think 3800 isn't unreasonable with a bit longer barrel and just the right powder, but then again I'm pretty near 100% capacity (filling to the bottom of the neck) so I'm not positive just how much you can push it. I think the 17 HH has more taper in the shoulders too so limiting capacity by a couple tenths more. Speed isn't a concern for me though, thus why I have the shrot barrel (handling). thanks rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12borejimbo Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 Is the 6 months waiting for a gun, the variation or the money? Money, Buying a Tikka T3 in 6.5x55 on Saturday, and also got money to spend on my garage conversion, then Christmas ect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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