Legal Difference Between .22 and .22 RF

[wymberley]

But the calibre is defined? The parent case isn't, but just how precise do these things have to be? I agree it makes sense for a new shooter to be helped through the process by being fixed to a given cartridge but what does it achieve for the rest of us? What you're requesting is that things are more restrictive which is just the situation that should be avoided! If you're fit to hold a firearm of the maximum potential of a given calibre then why should you be limited to one variation of it? There's no need.

 

Edit... Sorry, that was aimed at Wymberley

 

I hear what you're saying and if the system was to be opened up as you're indicating I have no problem with that. However, if we are to work within the existing system, the description must be sufficiently precise for anyone who may have a need to see the document (Including PC Plod at 2 am who might well be minded to relieve you of your WMR because he is of the opinion that it is not qualify as a 22 RF and it's too dark to read the serial number ) is able to check that all is legitimate. The person who this protects most, believe it or not, is you.

[njc110381]

If it's too dark to read the serial number then it's too dark to read that it's a WMR, not that the average copper would know the difference anyway. I think you worry too much!

[bedwards1966]

So what you're saying in effect that this quite important document should be worded to enable anyone who really hasn't a clue what they want to go shopping for a lethal firearm. Sorry, but nah!

 

I was simply trying to say that limiting what someone can buy in this way is pointless. It does not do any good, and adds hassle and wastes time. What's wrong with me changing my mind about which rim-fire caliber I want during the months it may take to actually get a variation granted, raise funds and buy the thing?

[hillmouse]

I cannot agree with the view an applicant should be left to choose whatever they see fit within a given bore size.

 

While I disagree with many of the conditions imposed on certificates, especially for those who have held an open ticket for several renewals, allowing an applicant to select what they fancy could lead to many difficulties.

I feel that a defined and recognised description should be used and adhered to.

I would decline a sale of a firearm or ammunition if it were not stated clearly EXACTLY the calibre and cartridge designation.

 

The implications of selling ammunition other than as per the certificate are severe. What if they bought the wrong designation of ammunition for the rifle?

As i said earlier, it is shoddy performance on behalf of the issuing authority.

[fruitloop]

_{I'm sure the last time i filled a variation form out it asked what caliber not what cartridge designation}

[Dekers]

This has all been debated many a time here and elseware with pretty similar results I seem to recall.

 

On the basis that you have to justify your firearms requirements I struggle to see how, for example, a .22 designation can be supported, there is an awful lot of difference between a .22 Cap at circa 30ft lb and some of the .22cf heading towards 2000ft lb.

 

There is also the national inconsistency of wording which drives us all mad and leads to ongoing discussion in threads such as this.

 

I can see "some" justification for a .22RF slot, I can see more justification for better defined slots, but I can see "no" justification for a .22slot!

Edited October 7, 2012 by Dekers

[Frenchieboy]

what do you regard as a std .22 is it the .22lr

 

as .22 is the caliber and the rf stands for rim fire so eny of the .22 /wmr/lr/and short

While technically this is true if your ticket just says .22RF but you need to be a little careful with this one!

I had this problem to sort out just the other week when I was selling my .22WMR. The lad that wanted to buy it had a slot on his ticket for a .22RF and Moderator but I wasn't too sure so I phoned my Firearms office (Lancashire) to get clarification before I was prepared to sell it to him. They told me that it had to clearly state either .22LR, .22WMR, .22 Hornet or the likes. Just having .22RF on the ticket was not clear enough and did not authorise me to sell the .22WMR to him and that he ought to contact his Firearms Department to get the FAC altered so that it was clearer on exactly what rifle he was legally authorised to have, and if I sold him my .22WMR before it was clarified both me and him could end up in the deep brown stuff!

This just goes to show yet again how some offices do things differently to others so beware!

 

Edit: Just to add that Lancashire have always told me to be very precise on applying for a variation for any .22LR - As well as stating that I want a .22LR I have to state the action I want on the variation application i.e. Bolt Action, Semi Auto, Pump Action, etc! I guess that they are just being "thorough" and doing it by the book!

Edited October 7, 2012 by Frenchieboy

[fruitloop]

While technically this is true if your ticket just says .22RF but you need to be a little careful with this one!

I had this problem to sort out just the other week when I was selling my .22WMR. The lad that wanted to buy it had a slot on his ticket for a .22RF and Moderator but I wasn't too sure so I phoned my Firearms office (Lancashire) to get clarification before I was prepared to sell it to him. They told me that it had to clearly state either .22LR, .22WMR, .22 Hornet or the likes. Just having .22RF on the ticket was not clear enough and did not authorise me to sell the .22WMR to him and that he ought to contact his Firearms Department to get the FAC altered so that it was clearer on exactly what rifle he was legally authorised to have, and if I sold him my .22WMR before it was clarified both me and him could end up in the deep brown stuff!

This just goes to show yet again how some offices do things differently to others so beware!

 

Edit: Just to add that Lancashire have always told me to be very precise on applying for a variation for any .22LR - As well as stating that I want a .22LR I have to state the action I want on the variation application i.e. Bolt Action, Semi Auto, Pump Action, etc! I guess that they are just being "thorough" and doing it by the book!

 

they sound ott. when i asked about action type thay told me that was up to me it just gives you that bit of freedom when looking at a new purchase

[Frenchieboy]

they sound ott. when i asked about action type thay told me that was up to me it just gives you that bit of freedom when looking at a new purchase

Yes mate it does sound like they are going a little over the top on this but in fairness I am not going to complain as they are normally very good with me for any variations I put in for so why rock the boat. I only posted this to show just how much variation there can be between one firearms office and others!

Once again it has to be said - It's high time they all started singing from the same hymn sheet!

Edited October 7, 2012 by Frenchieboy

[wymberley]

If it's too dark to read the serial number then it's too dark to read that it's a WMR, not that the average copper would know the difference anyway. I think you worry too much!

 

Maybe. One of the problems of spending 25 years working on aircraft is the absolute necessity for attention to detail - an attitude which then becomes ingrained. However, if you do make sure what you do is correct there is absolutely on need to worry - just relax and enjoy yourself which I find preferable.

[fruitloop]

that is true but you know what will happen there is that they will all go to the worst of the lot and not the best.

that always happens when you get standardization.

its a bit like the one for one variation why cant a gun shop do that and reduce the work load for them.

 

they still know where're the rifle is as you have to report it to them just less paper work and maybe if it was a simple as that maybe the gun trade might be able to make a profit and business will flourish.

 

as guns come in and get exchanged easer and faster instead of sell the rifle send off paperwork Waite months for it to return then send it back as they have made a mistake moor months,s go buy then get paper work back then go a buy rifle.

 

in this time you have been with out a rifle .

where if rfd can do a one to one you go in shop with a rifle part chop or sell to 3rd party. buy new rifle from shop rfd very es your cert informs fire armes dep so do you. all in a day rather than up to 6 months

Edited October 7, 2012 by fruitloop

[al4x]

So frenchie on that basis he couldn't buy anything which to my mind would go against his licensing authorities intentions. The correct people to call would be his issuing authority as yours had nothing to do with it.

[Scully]

It would be interesting to find out how a court would interpret this,in the case of someone having .22RF authorised(as I did) and buying a .22WMR(as I did) if the authorities decided to prosecute(which I doubt,as they authorised it)as there isn't a court in the land which can claim the .22 WMR isn't a RF.

[Frenchieboy]

So frenchie on that basis he couldn't buy anything which to my mind would go against his licensing authorities intentions. The correct people to call would be his issuing authority as yours had nothing to do with it.

 

That may have been the case in some people's eyes but as it was me who would have been selling him the rifle I thought it better to check so as to cover my own back (Which in this case turned out to be the right thing to do) as it would have been me who was in trouble for selling a rifle to someone who was not authorised to buy it as far as my Firearms Office were concerned.

[wymberley]

It would be interesting to find out how a court would interpret this,in the case of someone having .22RF authorised(as I did) and buying a .22WMR(as I did) if the authorities decided to prosecute(which I doubt,as they authorised it)as there isn't a court in the land which can claim the .22 WMR isn't a RF.

 

The thing to remember is, until the revolution comes, that if they want you, they'll have you. Believing otherwise is naivity in the extreme.

 

When your certificate arrived was there a sentence in the accompanying letter to the affect that, "should you find any errors on the certificate you are to inform............. Doesn't matter if you no longer have the letter or can't remember as they have their copy on file as it's their, 'get out of prison, put Scully in instead' statement to be activated should the need arise.

[Dekers]

It would be interesting to find out how a court would interpret this,in the case of someone having .22RF authorised(as I did) and buying a .22WMR(as I did) if the authorities decided to prosecute(which I doubt,as they authorised it)as there isn't a court in the land which can claim the .22 WMR isn't a RF.

 

Not a chance it would ever get to court, your region may have meant .22lr but listed a .22RF, you bought a .22RF, they have no case!

[Dekers]

The thing to remember is, until the revolution comes, that if they want you, they'll have you. Believing otherwise is naivity in the extreme.

 

When your certificate arrived was there a sentence in the accompanying letter to the affect that, "should you find any errors on the certificate you are to inform............. Doesn't matter if you no longer have the letter or can't remember as they have their copy on file as it's their, 'get out of prison, put Scully in instead' statement to be activated should the need arise.

 

?? they listed a .22RF what is wrong with that and what error was he meant to notify them of?

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the term and personally believe it should be more specific, but I still don't see what is an error?

[rapid rich]

My FAC has always stated '.22 magnum' so no chance of confusion here

Edited October 7, 2012 by rapid rich

[al4x]

 

 

That may have been the case in some people's eyes but as it was me who would have been selling him the rifle I thought it better to check so as to cover my own back (Which in this case turned out to be the right thing to do) as it would have been me who was in trouble for selling a rifle to someone who was not authorised to buy it as far as my Firearms Office were concerned.

 

The point is though his dept would have told you for fact what they meant and what he was authorised to buy. No problems then for anyone

[Scully]

The thing to remember is, until the revolution comes, that if they want you, they'll have you. Believing otherwise is naivity in the extreme.

 

When your certificate arrived was there a sentence in the accompanying letter to the affect that, "should you find any errors on the certificate you are to inform............. Doesn't matter if you no longer have the letter or can't remember as they have their copy on file as it's their, 'get out of prison, put Scully in instead' statement to be activated should the need arise.

You seem to want an argument Wymberley,for some reason.I don't see how I'm being naive?

There may well have been such a sentence as you suggest in an accompanying letter,but in all honesty I don't remember,but as Dekers asks;'where is the error?'

I was authorised for a .22RF,and that is what I bought.Even if the 'get out of prison' clause exists,it wasn't used when the opportunity arose,as it was never an issue.There was no error,on anyones part.Looking at my FAC it still has authorisation for .22RF; rifle,mod' and ammo.

There is much in firearms legislation which is neither consistent nor logical,and I suppose this is just another example of this,but the .22 RF cannot be interpreted as anything else other than what it is.

[JBS]

My FAC states 22RF 22CF and 17HMR, my firearms officer told me not to be specific as it would only limit my choices, most people on this forum worry far too much about stuff that will never happen, don't listen to the scaremongering and just get on and buy what you want and get out shooting

[DaveK]

If I'd known this thread was going to get to 3 pages I'd have bought a crate of Stella.

[wymberley]

 

You seem to want an argument Wymberley,for some reason.I don't see how I'm being naive?

 

 

No, not really. In the overall scheme of things I don't have all that much time left and I'm certainly not going to waste it bandying words with someone I'll never meet. It may be because I have a different background and am used to an environment in which the **** only moves in one direction and the people at the top have the power to ensure that it moves in the direction they wish and as they have more to lose they'll try even harder to ensure that it's on target.

 

For my money, if for whatever reason there was a problem with your FAC as regards RF and WMR, then only two people could possibly be in the frame. One is you and the other is your local Chief Officer Of Police. Now, I can't answer for you, but I personally reckon if it were me. I'd be pretty sure that from my experience it would be me that went down the Swanny. This is why I said in an earlier post that the one person that is most protected by having a definitive description of the gun(s) held is the certificate holder.

[Scully]

It may be because I have a different background and am used to an environment in which the **** only moves in one direction and the people at the top have the power to ensure that it moves in the direction they wish and as they have more to lose they'll try even harder to ensure that it's on target.

the one person that is most protected by having a definitive description of the gun(s) held is the certificate holder.

Fair enough Wymberley,and from your first paragraph it would appear your 'background' isn't too different to that of mine.

I agree with your second sentence also.It is obvious the OP doesn't have a 'definitive description' of the gun to be held,whereas I did.

[bedwards1966]

I would decline a sale of a firearm or ammunition if it were not stated clearly EXACTLY the calibre and cartridge designation.

 

The implications of selling ammunition other than as per the certificate are severe. What if they bought the wrong designation of ammunition for the rifle?

As i said earlier, it is shoddy performance on behalf of the issuing authority.

 

I really don't understand the problem. Your within the law to sell someone a .22 rim-fire if they have a slot for .22 rim-fire. If they want to go and buy a .22lr then try to buy some .22 WMR ammo it may be rather sensible to point out the difference, but it would be perfectly legal.

Where do you stop? If I've a slot for .22RF, from your posts you won't sell me any .22. So, I'll have to go and get the slot made to read '.22LR' first. Where is the sense in that?

Ah, next we may have another problem. It doesn't specify the action type, so I suppose you couldn't sell me a bolt action as it's not specifically written down on my certificate.

 

 

While technically this is true if your ticket just says .22RF but you need to be a little careful with this one!

I had this problem to sort out just the other week when I was selling my .22WMR. The lad that wanted to buy it had a slot on his ticket for a .22RF and Moderator but I wasn't too sure so I phoned my Firearms office (Lancashire) to get clarification before I was prepared to sell it to him. They told me that it had to clearly state either .22LR, .22WMR, .22 Hornet or the likes. Just having .22RF on the ticket was not clear enough and did not authorise me to sell the .22WMR to him and that he ought to contact his Firearms Department to get the FAC altered so that it was clearer on exactly what rifle he was legally authorised to have, and if I sold him my .22WMR before it was clarified both me and him could end up in the deep brown stuff!

This just goes to show yet again how some offices do things differently to others so beware!

 

Edit: Just to add that Lancashire have always told me to be very precise on applying for a variation for any .22LR - As well as stating that I want a .22LR I have to state the action I want on the variation application i.e. Bolt Action, Semi Auto, Pump Action, etc! I guess that they are just being "thorough" and doing it by the book!

 

They're wrong. You were selling a .22 rim-fire, and he had a slot allowing him to buy a .22 rim-fire. The fact that your particular force may want each certificate to specify which rim-fire is irrelevant. They cannot make the law, and are talking nonsense.

 

As to specifying the action type, that's something that they wish to impose and that's fine. But again, if they don't specify a certain type of action, you could have any type of action.