bedwards1966 Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 Wymberley, while I think I understand where your coming from with your approach to getting into trouble over buying a .22 not specifically mentioned on a certificate, I think your taking your view of 'you'd be the one in bother' a bit far. If you buy something that is permitted by the wording on your certificate - i.e you buy a .22 WMR with a '.22RF' slot, or a .22 hornet with a '.22' slot, then you are not in the wrong. What offence could you possibly be committing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolly Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Yes mate it does sound like they are going a little over the top on this but in fairness I am not going to complain as they are normally very good with me for any variations I put in for so why rock the boat. I only posted this to show just how much variation there can be between one firearms office and others! Once again it has to be said - It's high time they all started singing from the same hymn sheet! I 100% agree with one caveat, as I see it if we were to have a National Firearms Authority which would make sense generallyI think that they would take the worst and most awkward bits from every area and just make shooting even harder rather than rationalising and evening up the often very uneven policing of the current gun laws Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 I really don't understand the problem. Your within the law to sell someone a .22 rim-fire if they have a slot for .22 rim-fire. If they want to go and buy a .22lr then try to buy some .22 WMR ammo it may be rather sensible to point out the difference, but it would be perfectly legal. Where do you stop? If I've a slot for .22RF, from your posts you won't sell me any .22. So, I'll have to go and get the slot made to read '.22LR' first. Where is the sense in that? Ah, next we may have another problem. It doesn't specify the action type, so I suppose you couldn't sell me a bolt action as it's not specifically written down on my certificate. They're wrong. You were selling a .22 rim-fire, and he had a slot allowing him to buy a .22 rim-fire. The fact that your particular force may want each certificate to specify which rim-fire is irrelevant. They cannot make the law, and are talking nonsense. As to specifying the action type, that's something that they wish to impose and that's fine. But again, if they don't specify a certain type of action, you could have any type of action. That may be how you see it but it is obviously not how my firearms office see it. They were quite clear that if I sold him the rifle I would have been in trouble. I did what I thought was best to cover my own back. If the firearms office are wrong maybe you should try explaining it to them. As things go I am now not worried about it because I have sold the rifle to somenon who had a slot for a .22WMR and Sound Moderator clearly specified on their ticket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 they are talking bull frenchie, had you checked if his licensing authority gave him the right to aquire said wmr then it would have been fine. If you had sold him a .22 rim fire as specified on his ticket you would never have had any issue whatsoever. Licensing aren't out to get you but there is a lack of knowledge with the desk jockeys. They can't just say another authority is definitively in the wrong without asking them as some do as in this case write RF to give flexibility between the two .22 RIM FIRES Licensing do not put the right to aquire on a ticket for something you cannot buy and your authority are saying it doesn't give him the right to buy anything. Doesn't make a lot of sense really...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 they are talking bull frenchie, had you checked if his licensing authority gave him the right to aquire said wmr then it would have been fine. If you had sold him a .22 rim fire as specified on his ticket you would never have had any issue whatsoever. Licensing aren't out to get you but there is a lack of knowledge with the desk jockeys. They can't just say another authority is definitively in the wrong without asking them as some do as in this case write RF to give flexibility between the two .22 RIM FIRES Licensing do not put the right to aquire on a ticket for something you cannot buy and your authority are saying it doesn't give him the right to buy anything. Doesn't make a lot of sense really...... Al4x mate, I'm not going to fall out with anyone over this nor am I going to turn this into a never ending thread where people are never going to agree. The fact of the matter is that no matter if it is a load of bull or not as far as I am concerned I had to do what I thought was right to avoid the possibility of falling foul of the law! As I have said earlier it would make life so much easier for everyone if there was some form of standard wording and all firearms offices started singing from the same hymn sheet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salizar Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 For what it`s worth, I have a slot that states .22RF rifle, I`ve just phoned my Firearms Licencing Authority for some clarification and they said: I may purchase any .22 Rimfire rifle type including the .22 wmr. They said that some rfd`s do query it but if they contact us by phone, we will confirm that it is legal. atb S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flynny Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) For what it`s worth, I have a slot that states .22RF rifle, I`ve just phoned my Firearms Licencing Authority for some clarification and they said: I may purchase any .22 Rimfire rifle type including the .22 wmr. They said that some rfd`s do query it but if they contact us by phone, we will confirm that it is legal. atb S The best reply so far mate, If in doubt ask your firearm licensing officer / unit, I know different areas have different veiws, but as in all areas of life. if in doubt ask the right person, ie your licensing unit, ATB Flynny Edited October 8, 2012 by flynny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 The best reply so far mate, If in doubt ask your firearm licensing officer / unit, I know different areas have different veiws, but as in all areas of life. if in doubt ask the right person, ie your licensing unit, ATB Flynny But I would just add, get it in writing. If nothing else, it saves a lot of faffing about if you show it to the RFD when shopping particularly if you've nipped into the next county to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flynny Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 But I would just add, get it in writing. If nothing else, it saves a lot of faffing about if you show it to the RFD when shopping particularly if you've nipped into the next county to do it. Good point mate, defo get it in writing to cover your colon, ATB Flynny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) Thank heavens, ask your Region and get it in writing! PW answers the worlds problems again! :good: Edited October 8, 2012 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salizar Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 But I would just add, get it in writing. If nothing else, it saves a lot of faffing about if you show it to the RFD when shopping particularly if you've nipped into the next county to do it. Just like to add that it is in writing on my certificate, it states .22RF............................. 30 min. time out: Just finished speaking to my rfd, he said he has, would, can sell a .22RF ie .22WMR, (which over the years he has sold a few) legaly without any further checks, to any person who has a slot for a .22RF S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Just like to add that it is in writing on my certificate, it states .22RF............................. 30 min. time out: Just finished speaking to my rfd, he said he has, would, can sell a .22RF ie .22WMR, (which over the years he has sold a few) legaly without any further checks, to any person who has a slot for a .22RF S Sportarm? Yep, you could also happily shop in your western bordering county without a problem. I'm told that things are much more relaxed now as compared to how they used to be so it's not all doom and gloom Having said that, I'm also told that the expanding ammo situation has caused a bit of a hiccup in this (RF/WMR) regard. Perhaps PW could do a nationwide survey to find out which police areas accept RF as a blanket requirement to cover all calibres up to WMR to include expanding ammo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salizar Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Sportarm? Yep, you could also happily shop in your western bordering county without a problem. I'm told that things are much more relaxed now as compared to how they used to be so it's not all doom and gloom Having said that, I'm also told that the expanding ammo situation has caused a bit of a hiccup in this (RF/WMR) regard. Perhaps PW could do a nationwide survey to find out which police areas accept RF as a blanket requirement to cover all calibres up to WMR to include expanding ammo. Any links/info to the hiccups caused by the RF/WMR expanding ammo situation? S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Any links/info to the hiccups caused by the RF/WMR expanding ammo situation? S Regrettfully not. The shop was busy and it was said in passing. I'm working on pure guesswork so a large pinch of salt when I say could it be related to the more stringent regulations applicable to this class of ammo? I'll see if I can get it clarified next visit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salizar Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Regrettfully not. The shop was busy and it was said in passing. I'm working on pure guesswork so a large pinch of salt when I say could it be related to the more stringent regulations applicable to this class of ammo? I'll see if I can get it clarified next visit. Ok thanks. Looking at the broader picture-and this is a question not a statement-could the same not be said about say, 17mach2/17Hmr or 17rem/17hornet and maybe other calibres? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Ok thanks. Looking at the broader picture-and this is a question not a statement-could the same not be said about say, 17mach2/17Hmr or 17rem/17hornet and maybe other calibres? I really don't know. My experience is related to 243, 223 and 22Hornet. Until now (with the latter) everthing was clear cut in as much as that's what they were called and that's how they were defined. Yep, OK, collectively they were termed 22CF but this term never appeared to be used when it came to licensing; the individual calibre name always seemed to be used (no doubt someone will find the exception). This generic problem only seems to involve RF and I will throw your former two calibres into the equation when I ask. I would just comment that I think relaxation in the terminology on this official document is better described, as has been said, as sloppiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salizar Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 I really don't know. My experience is related to 243, 223 and 22Hornet. Until now (with the latter) everthing was clear cut in as much as that's what they were called and that's how they were defined. Yep, OK, collectively they were termed 22CF but this term never appeared to be used when it came to licensing; the individual calibre name always seemed to be used (no doubt someone will find the exception). This generic problem only seems to involve RF and I will throw your former two calibres into the equation when I ask. I would just comment that I think relaxation in the terminology on this official document is better described, as has been said, as sloppiness. Ok, but are not 243, 223 and 22 specific calibre sizes and 22RF a calibre and catategory- you could not have a slot for 22CF and purchase a 223. In my humble opinion I think the 22RF slot is maybe an attempt to simplify a very complicated licensing system and not sloppiness. Maybe they could do that with 17RF and 17CF S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBS Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Ok, but are not 243, 223 and 22 specific calibre sizes and 22RF a calibre and catategory- you could not have a slot for 22CF and purchase a 223. In my humble opinion I think the 22RF slot is maybe an attempt to simplify a very complicated licensing system and not sloppiness. Maybe they could do that with 17RF and 17CF S Why could you not have a slot for 22CF and buy a .223? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Funker Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Why could you not have a slot for 22CF and buy a .223? I would say you can, but I don't have any centre fire calibres on my ticket so it's only an opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 .22CF is an accepted and commonly used term in shooting circles and is taken to mean .222, .223 and 22-250 (also, although probably not quite so considered, the Hornet) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Ok, but are not 243, 223 and 22 specific calibre sizes and 22RF a calibre and catategory- you could not have a slot for 22CF and purchase a 223. In my humble opinion I think the 22RF slot is maybe an attempt to simplify a very complicated licensing system and not sloppiness. Maybe they could do that with 17RF and 17CF S Why could you not have a slot for 22CF and buy a .223? .22CF is an accepted and commonly used term in shooting circles and is taken to mean .222, .223 and 22-250 (also, although probably not quite so considered, the Hornet) Dekers is right. It's all very simple: '.22 RimFire' - .22 short, .22 long, .22 cap things, .22 WMR. All are .22 rim-fires. '.22 CentreFire' - .22 hornet, .222, .223, .22-250. All are .22 center-fires. '.22' - any .22 rifle. If the police want to specify a particular round, center-fire of rim-fire, they can. But if they don't, you can buy any that fall under the category they write on your certificate. It's very simple, and while I'm still not suggesting anyone goes and buy's a .22-250 after an application for a .22lr comes back as just '.22', you can. Whether any particular force disagrees with this in any way is irrelevant. They do not make the law, and you cannot get into trouble for buying something that your certificate authorizes you to buy, or for selling something to someone who's certificate authorizes them to buy it. The intentions of the police issuing the certificate aren't relevant, all that counts are the words printed on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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