Electric collar dog training.

[al4x]

I think the real thing to do is talk to people who do the same kind of shooting as you. It's fine for a occasional wildfowler to comment but you need to be talking to people who do use spaniels for beating and picking up there are some quite knowledgeable ones on here

[chrispti]

I had the problem of her running in and she had a thing about deers .

 

Her names not Fenton by any chance, is it ??

[kent]

Hi I've used an e-collar to fix various problems. They are a great tool in the right hands but you could easily cause more problems inadvertantly. Why not try an anti-bark collar first?

 

i suspect your comming from the cruelty angle? An electric collar used correctly in the case of stopping a manic car barker etc. need do little more than grab the dogs attention. You can see them stop and sort of look about in suprise, then try it again" pop!" they get another little tap. The penny littraly drops. I have never used a collar triggered by the bark but fear accidental triggerings the timing is critical and over, misuse or random triggerings will not help. One thing a funny spray etc wont do is stop a sheep killer in its tracks at the perfect moment, so why keep two collars.

The set i own cost a large amount of cash, will work on two dogs idependantly at the same time and has a massive range. Before i put it on a dog i test it on myself for function - i do not want to damage a dog or likewise have it fail, you get a tester with them but i feel if your frightened to hit the pop switch on yourself you shouldnt put it near an animal in your care

[kent]

I think the real thing to do is talk to people who do the same kind of shooting as you. It's fine for a occasional wildfowler to comment but you need to be talking to people who do use spaniels for beating and picking up there are some quite knowledgeable ones on here

you cannot use an electric collar on the marshes due to saltwater, although you can use the better ones in freshwater i shouldn't as sensitivity levels rise a lot when the dog is wet so personally i shouldn't.

 

BTW it dont matter if the dogs are just pets the principle of collar use is the same. A good wildfowling dog makes an awesome picking up dog BTW, needing little handling until required, fantasic ability to remember multiple marks (often in the dark). If your having a pop at me personally you know nothing of my habbits other than i do not SHOOT at driven game and never have, that doesn't mean i have never beat,picked up or never go roughshooting.

I know you run your own wirehair is strapped up with a collar on shoot days coz you have told us previously obviously "just in case" not for constant correction.. its everyones own choice to do as they wish with these things presently

[Nikk]

No i am not coming from a cruelty angle. They are no more cruel than smacking a child. My point is people who ofren need them might not be the best or most experienced trainers so I suggest they put a lot of thought into how they will proceed with it and get help from a trainer maybe. Dogs are easily conditioned which is why they work but you can accidentally make the wrong association i.e. Dog gets nervoius on a retreive.

[al4x]

 

you cannot use an electric collar on the marshes due to saltwater, although you can use the better ones in freshwater i shouldn't as sensitivity levels rise a lot when the dog is wet so personally i shouldn't.

 

BTW it dont matter if the dogs are just pets the principle of collar use is the same. A good wildfowling dog makes an awesome picking up dog BTW, needing little handling until required, fantasic ability to remember multiple marks (often in the dark). If your having a pop at me personally you know nothing of my habbits other than i do not SHOOT at driven game and never have, that doesn't mean i have never beat,picked up or never go roughshooting.

I know you run your own wirehair is strapped up with a collar on shoot dayts coz you have told us previously obviously "just in case" not for constant correction.. its everyones own choice to do as they wish with these things presently

 

Funnily enough she had one for a while but hasn't for a fair while, hence I can suggest the op won't put the dog off game and will probably cure his issue. But as most on here know you are always right but as this is the web people with no experience in the situation can belittle everyone else.

In my case it was used mostly to pull her off point as drives went on but it never needed the shock function the beep was plenty, and she actually liked wearing it as it was associated with work.

Depending on use and the temperament of the user I still think they can be useful and in he op's case would sort the problem if nothing else does

[UKPoacher]

I agree totally with Kent. Electric collars can have their place, but the problem is that users don't understand howto use them. In essence that's probably why they have problems with their dogs in the first place.

 

You can't normally give advice on a dog's problem over the phone or over the Internet. Unless it is a very clear specific problem such as dog barking in car when sees another dog, then you have to be aware that what the owner sees and interprets might not be the same as a trainer or more knowledgable erson sees and interprets. You really need to see the dog to discover the true problem because in many cases the problem lies not with the dog, but the handler.

 

Going back to Kent's advice about the ec for preventing the dog barking whilst in the car. The biggest danger as he has indicated is the dog associating the collar with the correction. It is vitally important to prevent this association otherwise the dog will fight you when you try to put the collar on. You really do need to put the collar on every single time the dog gets in the car without fail. Then the dog associates the collar with travelling in the car and will have no idea that the collar is involved in the corrective training.

 

The biggest single problem with the ec is people putting them on the dog then immediately trying it to make sure it is working properly. Once you do that you might as well throw it away.

Edited November 4, 2012 by UKPoacher

[kent]

I agree totally with Kent. Electric collars can have their place, but the problem is that users don't understand howto use them. In essence that's probably why they have problems with their dogs in the first place.

 

You can't normally give advice on a dog's problem over the phone or over the Internet. Unless it is a very clear specific problem such as dog barking in car when sees another dog, then you have to be aware that what the owner sees and interprets might not be the same as a trainer or more knowledgable erson sees and interprets. You really need to see the dog to discover the true problem because in many cases the problem lies not with the dog, but the handler.

 

Going back to Kent's advice about the ec for preventing the dog barking whilst in the car. The biggest danger as he has indicated is the dog associating the collar with the correction. It is vitally important to prevent this association otherwise the dog will fight you when you try to put the collar on. You really do need to put the collar on every single time the dog gets in the car without fail. Then the dog associates the collar with travelling in the car and will have no idea that the collar is involved in the corrective training.

 

The biggest single problem with the ec is people putting them on the dog then immediately trying it to make sure it is working properly. Once you do that you might as well throw it away.

 

yes allowing the dog to get away with a transgression in the car without correction during conditioning is very bad. Once a conditioning period has been done thoughely then you should never need to do it again and the collar can be put away. I might be wrong but i think these things were developed for snake breaking and thier real strength is aversion therapy. Dogs are far less bright than many give them credit for but they can put two apperently linked things together far quicker than many people can

 

The issue with distant dog advice is people just aint honest enough, sometimes it hard enough to work out what you have done wrong yourself- let alone disclose those facts to others. I have made some rather stupid mistakes myself and its hard enough to work out what you did let alone what someone else did or is doing

[kent]

 

 

Funnily enough she had one for a while but hasn't for a fair while, hence I can suggest the op won't put the dog off game and will probably cure his issue. But as most on here know you are always right but as this is the web people with no experience in the situation can belittle everyone else.

In my case it was used mostly to pull her off point as drives went on but it never needed the shock function the beep was plenty, and she actually liked wearing it as it was associated with work.

Depending on use and the temperament of the user I still think they can be useful and in he op's case would sort the problem if nothing else does

 

Well done you shocked a pointer on point to pull her off- why the heck didn't you just buy a spaniel? you were training a pointer not to hold point, i need say no more ....................

[al4x]

who said shock, I said a beep and it was false points. She has a lot of plus points with the shooting I do and is surprisingly good in the beating line. Pointing works for us when you get a decent flush going on. The difference is I have the dog I want as opposed to yours where you had to consign it to the kennel and buy a lab. That to me says it all and really renders your criticism as ********

[Bloggs]

Kent, thanks for the advice, I'm going to buy 2 electric collars - one for each dog.

I've had numerous GSD's over the years and have always trained them using techniques taught to me by the breeder we always go to (namely clicker training).

The dog barking in the car is the only issue I have with the 'girls' and as I stated earlier its not the cleverest thing to try and train them whilst driving. I think that I will purchase the ec with the buzzer function too and try that first, if that fails then I'll use the shock function. I've seen them on the Bay with shock levels with increments of 100 steps - hopefully I won't have the smell of burning dog fur in the car.... Lol

I also understand the dogs' association with the collar and car business. Would it be a good idea to leave the collars on on a more permanent basis...?

Again, Kent, thanks for your help :-)

Edited November 4, 2012 by Bloggs

[ETO]

Rimfire, I've been looking at these as well. We've got a few issues with our ten month old GSD, mainly going mental when she's in the car as soon as she sees other dogs. Obviously trying to control her whilst driving is not only very wrong but almost impossible. I did watch the Caesar Malone series on dog training and he did use said item in a couple of episodes where he was trying to control a dogs behaviour at distance.

Sorry I've had no useful input to your thread but I am also very interested in this subject...

Thanks for starting :-)

 

Might I suggest watching Victoria Stillwell's approach to stopping dogs barking in the car.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wm_cWySHA4

 

Skip to 13:19 or round about there and you'll see the behaviour before and after. You will need a friend to help. But you will see how short a time it will take and how much less money you will spend on this technique rather than a shock collar.

 

Or if you feel like a challenge, teach them to bark then teach the reverse. I've taught my GSD mix that barks at everything to speak on command, and after I taught him to speak, I taught him quiet. Now if I say quiet he immediately shuts up. No harsh techniques, just 3 weeks and a lot of treats and patience.

 

As for the OP. I can only echo extra training and bring in some distractions. It sounds to me that you're not challenging her enough so she's not learnt to stop. I'm facing the same problems and luckily I have rabbits and a few friends with chickens that I can put on the garden and with a line, teach the stop and steadiness with the dogs. You have to build up your training rather than expecting them to know when that whistle is blown it means stop whatever including distractions. The way I see the shock collar working is dog sees bird, dog runs, you shock her, she is then put off birds because bird = shock. Dogs don't rationalise.

 

I am not a fan of shock collars. Regardless of whether they are used properly or not.

Edited November 4, 2012 by ETO

[UKPoacher]

Kent, thanks for the advice, I'm going to buy 2 electric collars - one for each dog.

I've had numerous GSD's over the years and have always trained them using techniques taught to me by the breeder we always go to (namely clicker training).

The dog barking in the car is the only issue I have with the 'girls' and as I stated earlier its not the cleverest thing to try and train them whilst driving. I think that I will purchase the ec with the buzzer function too and try that first, if that fails then I'll use the shock function. I've seen them on the Bay with shock levels with increments of 100 steps - hopefully I won't have the smell of burning dog fur in the car.... Lol

I also understand the dogs' association with the collar and car business. Would it be a good idea to leave the collars on on a more permanent basis...?

Again, Kent, thanks for your help :-)

 

My advice would be to put the collars on every time you put the dogs in the car and take the collars off every time they get out of the car. This serves two purposes; firstly the dog associates the collar with the car, not the correction. Secondly, it avoids busy-bodies sticking their noses into your business if they notice the collars.

 

Just a point; two collars & two dogs at the same time might cause you some problems. Correcting the wrong dog for example might undermine the whole training process. Might be better to take each dog out in turn for a few days until they have started to progress.

[UKPoacher]

yes allowing the dog to get away with a transgression in the car without correction during conditioning is very bad. Once a conditioning period has been done thoughely then you should never need to do it again and the collar can be put away. I might be wrong but i think these things were developed for snake breaking and thier real strength is aversion therapy. Dogs are far less bright than many give them credit for but they can put two apperently linked things together far quicker than many people can

 

The issue with distant dog advice is people just aint honest enough, sometimes it hard enough to work out what you have done wrong yourself- let alone disclose those facts to others. I have made some rather stupid mistakes myself and its hard enough to work out what you did let alone what someone else did or is doing

 

Agreed. I have had two police GSDs, the second one I trained myself to the extent that by the time he started his official 14 week training course he was almost ready for finishing it. But, it often takes someone else to see what you are doing wrong when things don't go as planned. Mostly it is the handler's fault, not the dog's, and mostly the handler isn't aware of what he / she is doing wrong.

 

A dog barking at other dogs while in a car or garden is one step away from barking on a leash and that is one step away from a dog biting with some breeds. It has to be nipped in the bud.

[kent]

who said shock, I said a beep and it was false points. She has a lot of plus points with the shooting I do and is surprisingly good in the beating line. Pointing works for us when you get a decent flush going on. The difference is I have the dog I want as opposed to yours where you had to consign it to the kennel and buy a lab. That to me says it all and really renders your criticism as ********

 

When your in a hole stop digging. Shock or buzz (the buzz is only of use if the dog associates it with wrong doing and a forthcomming shock correction so the point is mute) No dog on point should be corrected ignoored perhaps if its known to be the wrong quarry or sent in to the flush if your not going to shoot over it. You again know diddly squat about what happened to my now dead wire so don't make it up please

[kent]

 

 

My advice would be to put the collars on every time you put the dogs in the car and take the collars off every time they get out of the car. This serves two purposes; firstly the dog associates the collar with the car, not the correction. Secondly, it avoids busy-bodies sticking their noses into your business if they notice the collars.

 

Just a point; two collars & two dogs at the same time might cause you some problems. Correcting the wrong dog for example might undermine the whole training process. Might be better to take each dog out

 

in turn for a few days until they have started to progress.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i believe the dog should be habituated to the collar well in advance and never correct it with control or correction - at least 4 weeks of on and off with totally no correction. otherwise they think "ok i need to behave now i have this on". remember dogs is thick- its not the collar its not the owner its something those Sheep, horses, snakes whatever can do if you bug them.

 

buzzing or behaving while in the collar are all plasters IMO., not cures

[kent]

ETO,

i though you might be a collar sceptic, remember though stillwell is on telly. Quite simply you never see the guy on the new yankee workshop cut himself or get a bad splinter, cut someting the wrong way around- but you gotta bet it happens. I should love to see her outakes.

 

95 out of 100 dogs don't need a collar if brought on correctly. Thats still 5 out of 100 being palmed off, passed about- living half lives or simply put down

[Bloggs]

UK Poacher - good advice and taken onboard, thank you...

[lee-kinsman]

Sounds like she doesn't have the "LEAVE THAT" command which tells her that you are aware of it. At 5 year old I don't know how to suggest tp remedy the problem since it's probably her hunting experience that as reasoned her to go to what she has seen and then return to hunt up in a quartering pattern.

 

Maybe take her to some fairly open ground where there are some visable quarry and cause her to hunt up the rough.

[ETO]

ETO,

i though you might be a collar sceptic, remember though stillwell is on telly. Quite simply you never see the guy on the new yankee workshop cut himself or get a bad splinter, cut someting the wrong way around- but you gotta bet it happens. I should love to see her outakes.

 

95 out of 100 dogs don't need a collar if brought on correctly. Thats still 5 out of 100 being palmed off, passed about- living half lives or simply put down

 

 

Even so I have done this particular training exercise with my GSD mix that barked in the car at anything and it worked. It took 3 car rides for him to realise it wasn't happening. So I can say that it works - or has done for me.

[UKPoacher]

Kent,

I agree with most of what you have posted, but am intruiged at this four week familiarisation period. How have you come to that figure?

 

We used to take in rescue dogs and in six weeks from scratch have them licenced as trained drugs or explosives detection dogs. In that six weeks they would learn to find a ball, then indicate a hidden ball without contaminating the scene, then learn to associate 8 or 10 different scents with the ball and indicate the scents once the ball was removed from the equation. With GSDs we would take a dog that could have been a stray only a few weeks before and in 14 weeks have it licenced as a general purpose dog. They had to perform obedience with and away from the handler, locate and indicate hidden persons or discarded property, identify and follow a track and all the biting exercises. For half that 14 weeks the dogs assigned to newly appointed handlers are kept in kennels so they don't even bond with their handlers properly until the second half of the course.

 

I don't think you need that four weeks just to get used to a collar. The dog doesn't know the purpose of the collar and will just associate it being put on every time when it is put in the car and taken off when it comes out of the car. The only time you would need to extend any familiarisation period is if the dog objects to the collar. Then you would need to introduce the collar and distract the dog with play exercises until it forgot about wearing it. As long as it was always put on and always taken off at the appropriate times and used appropriately it could be used for correction after two or three days.

[UKPoacher]

Even so I have done this particular training exercise with my GSD mix that barked in the car at anything and it worked. It took 3 car rides for him to realise it wasn't happening. So I can say that it works - or has done for me.

 

I understand that you are against the use of electric collars, but don't understand why? The video you gave is basically reward / punishment correction just as the ec is. Whether you use a tug on the leash to change the dog's direction, speaking in harsh tones when you give a command or physically moving the dog by pushing or pulling it, you are intervening to distract its focus and modify its behaviour. I really don't see why using an ec is any different.

[ETO]

I understand that you are against the use of electric collars, but don't understand why? The video you gave is basically reward / punishment correction just as the ec is. Whether you use a tug on the leash to change the dog's direction, speaking in harsh tones when you give a command or physically moving the dog by pushing or pulling it, you are intervening to distract its focus and modify its behaviour. I really don't see why using an ec is any different.

 

The video I posted was to show another example of fixing barking in the car. All she uses is cloth and a guard and a sharp tone to let the dog know that what it is doing is unacceptable.

 

I will not get into an argument with people about my opinions over Shock Collars especially when they won't listen to reason and are stuck in their ways. Whats the point. Wastes my time and at the end of the day if you're going to go around electrocuting your dog because you can't be bothered to find a decent way to train it - then thats your problem. The day I have to resort to a shock collar is the day that I will give up owning animals all together. They are nothing but barbaric and the lazy option. And if you can't train your dog with patience and time then IMHO you don't deserve to own one.

[UKPoacher]

The video I posted was to show another example of fixing barking in the car. All she uses is cloth and a guard and a sharp tone to let the dog know that what it is doing is unacceptable.

 

I will not get into an argument with people about my opinions over Shock Collars especially when they won't listen to reason and are stuck in their ways. Whats the point. Wastes my time and at the end of the day if you're going to go around electrocuting your dog because you can't be bothered to find a decent way to train it - then thats your problem. The day I have to resort to a shock collar is the day that I will give up owning animals all together. They are nothing but barbaric and the lazy option. And if you can't train your dog with patience and time then IMHO you don't deserve to own one.

 

But you are yourself stuck in your ways by denying the ec has a use. Taking the superior high ground, sing words like 'shock' as in 'electric' without acknowledging that any intervention could be construed as shocking the dog whether it be emotional or physical.

 

The reason you don't want to getinto an argument is because you have an opinion that you can't justify.

 

BTW; I have never had need to use an ec (yet), but I have been in situations where I would imagine that the end result could have been achieved far more quickly or with better effect by using one. My only reservations about them are that some people will use them inappropriately, just as some people use emotional and physical intervention incorrectly.

[Bloggs]

UK Poacher - I think what you've done transforming your dogs in that period of time is awesome and a credit to you :-)

 

Just out of interest, do you use the clicker as part of your training program. I've had good results with it over the years....