The Police are making me break the law

[JonathanL]

It covers you in the case of police delays in re issue yes assuming you have an application in on time and its the polices fault

 

http://forums.pigeon...em/page__st__20

 

It's still very vague though. What counts as having your application 'in on time'? What is the definition of 'the fault of the police' that its expired? How long after this are you covered for; 1 month, 2 months, 6 months?? What if it takes a year?

 

The other rather important point that springs to mind is that, regardless of what insurers say, they are not allowed as a matter of law to provide insurance for an unlawful activity, as far as I am aware.

 

J.

[Dunkield]

Well they have done it to me now.

My coterminous certificates run out in February, got the reminder about a month ago, did all the paperwork, sent it in, had the visit about a fortnight ago.

As I hadn't been using or showing buying loads of ammo, the FEO wanted to reduce by buy/hold quantities, I didn't think it was a good idea but he did it anyway.

Got my new certificates back at the weekend the hold figures for both of my centrefires are less than I said I am currently holding (and stated on my renewal)

So do I hand myself into the police, build a cross get nailed to it set alight, or just give them a call and have them changed?

Only PW has the answer....

[JonathanL]

Well they have done it to me now.

My coterminous certificates run out in February, got the reminder about a month ago, did all the paperwork, sent it in, had the visit about a fortnight ago.

As I hadn't been using or showing buying loads of ammo, the FEO wanted to reduce by buy/hold quantities, I didn't think it was a good idea but he did it anyway.

Got my new certificates back at the weekend the hold figures for both of my centrefires are less than I said I am currently holding (and stated on my renewal)

So do I hand myself into the police, build a cross get nailed to it set alight, or just give them a call and have them changed?

Only PW has the answer....

 

A letter of complaint to the CC should be the plan, I think. It is inexcusable that they have put you in that position.

 

J.

[al4x]

Well they have done it to me now.

My coterminous certificates run out in February, got the reminder about a month ago, did all the paperwork, sent it in, had the visit about a fortnight ago.

As I hadn't been using or showing buying loads of ammo, the FEO wanted to reduce by buy/hold quantities, I didn't think it was a good idea but he did it anyway.

Got my new certificates back at the weekend the hold figures for both of my centrefires are less than I said I am currently holding (and stated on my renewal)

So do I hand myself into the police, build a cross get nailed to it set alight, or just give them a call and have them changed?

Only PW has the answer....

 

Simple answer is your new conditions only apply from the date of expiry of your current ticket, so either use the ammo between now and february, sell some or complain and try and get the limit raised. As from memory you gave up reloading if you don't use much they may sort of have a point

[JonathanL]

Simple answer is your new conditions only apply from the date of expiry of your current ticket, so either use the ammo between now and february, sell some or complain and try and get the limit raised. As from memory you gave up reloading if you don't use much they may sort of have a point

 

he shouldn't have to do anything though. If for some reason he can't use it then he will be in unlawful possession due to the actions of the police.

 

In addition, if they have granted you a lower ammunition holding than you have applied for then that is a partial refusal to renew and should be done via the proper method - ie: they should inform you of such and of the fact that you have a right to appeal it within a certain period.

 

J.

[al4x]

sounds like the FEO changed the application form so no issue there other than he went too far by the sounds of it he does have nearly 2 months to sort out the amount without knowing the levels its hard to say if its silly or not.

[JonathanL]

sounds like the FEO changed the application form so no issue there other than he went too far by the sounds of it he does have nearly 2 months to sort out the amount without knowing the levels its hard to say if its silly or not.

 

Licensing staff should not be changing your application form for any reason!

 

J.

[al4x]

they do though while you sit with them, works both ways making sure they go through smoothly. This isn't unusual with amounts of ammo mine has said similar in the past and actually increased mine because I was reloading. Realistically I don't know what ammo levels Dunkield has or how close it is but if you have a deer rifle and are an occasional stalker you really don't need to be holding hundreds. I get through 2-300 a year at a guess and can hold more than a years supply really that is pretty fair.

[Dunkield]

To be fair the amount was changed in front of me, I reluctantly agreed to it, it isn't a biggy just make buying in bulk (what I tend to do) less easy and they are right I haven't logged all the ammo.

But... they have my new FAC with the new hold numbers, and they have my application that has my current hold, so they have all the information they just haven't checked one against the other.

I have written to them to ask them to re-instate the old quantities, using my current hold quantities as part of the justification, I won't use the overage between now and February.

[al4x]

If they asked for a reduction based on use it suggests they did know your current allocation, but they shouldn't give you less than you are currently holding. Still good to see another force on top of renewals I know a few Herts people with new tickets months before expiry of their old one.

[Vince Green]

This trying to reduce the amount of ammo you hold all the time is a bit obsessive really. If you really were a dangerous fruitloop you would just stockpile it. Unless I buy ammo when I am at Bisley I have an 80 mile round trip to pick up supplies now and any cost saving is wiped out by the fuel cost.

[JonathanL]

This trying to reduce the amount of ammo you hold all the time is a bit obsessive really. If you really were a dangerous fruitloop you would just stockpile it. Unless I buy ammo when I am at Bisley I have an 80 mile round trip to pick up supplies now and any cost saving is wiped out by the fuel cost.

 

Ammunition quotas are a massive waste of time. With all the recent talk of costs increasing, I think that a big cost saver would be to do away with them. As you say, it's easy for anyone to stock-pile as much as they want as you don't have a government agent physically watching you as you shoot each round. Also, if the point is to prevent a mass-shooting then it won't have any affect unless ammunition holdings were very low as I think the most amount of ammo used in any mass-shooting event was about 300 rounds and many have been perpetrated with far less. Again, eeven then it only matters if the numbers can actually be controlled, which they can't.

 

There would be no detriment to public safety to say that you can acquire and possess as much ammunition, suitable for use in the firearms which you lawfully possess, as you can securely store.

 

J.

[Canis]

Ammunition quotas are a massive waste of time. With all the recent talk of costs increasing, I think that a big cost saver would be to do away with them. As you say, it's easy for anyone to stock-pile as much as they want as you don't have a government agent physically watching you as you shoot each round. Also, if the point is to prevent a mass-shooting then it won't have any affect unless ammunition holdings were very low as I think the most amount of ammo used in any mass-shooting event was about 300 rounds and many have been perpetrated with far less. Again, eeven then it only matters if the numbers can actually be controlled, which they can't.

 

There would be no detriment to public safety to say that you can acquire and possess as much ammunition, suitable for use in the firearms which you lawfully possess, as you can securely store.

 

J.

[SakoQuad]

Q&A in Shooting UK letter dated 26th November

 

 

Monday, 26 November 2012

Shotgun licence: I live in Essex and included in my recent shotgun certificate renewal pack there was a form I was required to sign to the effect that if my certificate renewal was delayed I could keep my guns in the approved storage but not use them.

Do I have to sign this form and does it have any legal validity?

 

SHOTGUN LICENCE

David Frost

No to both parts of your question. There are only two forms you need to complete for your renewal application.

 

The first is the official buff coloured application form (form 103) which the police should send you or which you may have to download from their website and complete.

 

(The form on the Essex website is interesting in that it is the copyright of the Sussex Police and I wonder if Essex have formally sought approval for its use.)

 

The second form is issued by your bank and commonly known as a cheque.

 

No other forms have any legal validity whatsoever in the renewal process but they can be quite useful in an emergency if you run out of toilet paper.

 

The unofficial Essex form is particularly bad because it implies that your certificate may not be renewed in time and in that case you will be allowed to keep your guns without a valid certificate.

 

No matter what the police may tell you it is UNLAWFUL to be in possession of a gun without either a valid certificate or a Section 7 temporary permit.

 

There is no way in which the police can authorise possession by requiring you to fill in a form or in the text of a letter.

 

You should write to Chief Constable Jim Barker-McArdle personally and complain about the sloppy performance of his licensing staff and the fact they are encouraging unlawful possession of shotguns.

 

I spoke to the newly appointed Inspector who deals with these things in Chelmsford and he seemed quite surprised at the reaction the form had attracted.

 

Maybe he needs to learn more about firearms law before trying to run the licensing department.

[Breastman]

Isn't a reduction in ammo limits counted as a partial revocation??

[12boreblue]

So you get stopped and arrested for not having a valid certificate, then prosecuted in a court of law. Hmmmm! so the Police will be prosecuting and your defence will be to call the Police, and their failure as the reason. Can't see any force in the country allowing that one to go to court.

[bedwards1966]

So you get stopped and arrested for not having a valid certificate, then prosecuted in a court of law. Hmmmm! so the Police will be prosecuting and your defence will be to call the Police, and their failure as the reason. Can't see any force in the country allowing that one to go to court.

 

It's very simple. The police who arrest you discover you don't hold a certificate, they tell CPS what they have found (i.e someone here with firearms and no certificate).

CPS look at it and say he/she's breaking the law, this will win in court. They tell the police to charge you.

 

The fact that another department of the police told you it's OK to break the law won't come into it. The simple fact is that you are breaking the law, and the police can't make it OK.

Yes a judge may let you off if you can satisfy him that the police told you it was OK and you believed them, but ultimately you are committing an offence, and you would be found guilty of that, even if you get off without a punishment.

 

Remember, CPS are the ones who decide what to charge people with. They don't care if your guilty or not, they don't care if it's a mistake or not, and they don't care if the police want to charge you or not. They make their own choices in these matters.

[al4x]

And the main thing is its not happened yet and many thousands have been in the situation, it suggests the pw barrack room lawyer is erring on the side of fantasy with his ideas on process

[chrispti]

 

 

It's very simple. The police who arrest you discover you don't hold a certificate, they tell CPS what they have found (i.e someone here with firearms and no certificate).

CPS look at it and say he/she's breaking the law, this will win in court. They tell the police to charge you.

 

The fact that another department of the police told you it's OK to break the law won't come into it. The simple fact is that you are breaking the law, and the police can't make it OK.

Yes a judge may let you off if you can satisfy him that the police told you it was OK and you believed them, but ultimately you are committing an offence, and you would be found guilty of that, even if you get off without a punishment.

 

Remember, CPS are the ones who decide what to charge people with. They don't care if your guilty or not, they don't care if it's a mistake or not, and they don't care if the police want to charge you or not. They make their own choices in these matters.

 

Police arrest you for what?

 

They don't go straight to cps for advice, you get interviewed first.

 

Show them the letter stating the police will not take further action if your ticket expires whilst its in for renewal, the arresting officer would more than likely seek advice from the duty sargeant who will then call the firearms department to varify the lettter (if they didn't already know about it) pretty sure the police are not in the habbit of dropping themselves in the ****?

[bedwards1966]

Police arrest you for what?

Possessing a firearm without a certificate. If you don't hold a current certificate, you are committing an offence.

 

They don't go straight to cps for advice, you get interviewed first.

This then gets put before CPS, who make the decision. The law is quite clear, and whatever you say in the interview does not prevent you from having committed an offence.

 

Show them the letter stating the police will not take further action if your ticket expires whilst its in for renewal, the arresting officer would more than likely seek advice from the duty sargeant who will then call the firearms department to varify the lettter (if they didn't already know about it) pretty sure the police are not in the habbit of dropping themselves in the ****?

The police will not allow you to pop home while you are under arrest to get a letter!

The firearms department are only open certain hours, you could be arrested, interviewed and charged without anyone ever speaking to the firearms department, they don't need to. Once the ball is rolling and they find you have committed an offence, it has to continue and end up in front of CPS, and ultimately court.

Whether the divisional police want to cause problems for the firearms department simply doesn't come into it, they have to put this to CPS, who simply don't care about anything other than getting convictions. This would be a very easy one for them.

 

Remember the police do not have the authority to allow you to break the law, they can't tell you it's OK. Only the government can make laws, the police telling you it's OK has no more meaning than if I told you it's OK.

They may be in trouble for telling you it's OK, a judge may not punish you, but that would be purely down to the judge, you could just as easily be sent to prison.

[bedwards1966]

And the main thing is its not happened yet and many thousands have been in the situation, it suggests the pw barrack room lawyer is erring on the side of fantasy with his ideas on process

 

People are breaking the law, it's as simple as that.

The police are not able to make it OK, they do not have the power to do so.

There is a good chance that at some point this will end up turning very nasty, and when you consider that BASC (who have lawyers) are also saying you are breaking the law and not to accept it, this should tell you something?

Laugh all you want, but possessing a firearm without a certificate is an absolute offence, and a very serious one.

[chrispti]

 

 

Remember the police do not have the authority to allow you to break the law, they can't tell you it's OK. Only the government can make laws, the police telling you it's OK has no more meaning than if I told you it's OK.

They may be in trouble for telling you it's OK, a judge may not punish you, but that would be purely down to the judge, you could just as easily be sent to prison.

 

If I'm out with my gun then I carry the letter with me.

 

I very much doubt the police will make a case against themselves then seek cps advise on it....

 

Against the law, yes, police descresion plays a big part in it, I suppose if you were pulled over for speeding or forgot to put your seatbelt on, you wouldn't want a telling off but insist on points and a fine?

[Dirty Harry]

 

 

Remember the police do not have the authority to allow you to break the law, they can't tell you it's OK. Only the government can make laws, the police telling you it's OK has no more meaning than if I told you it's OK.

They may be in trouble for telling you it's OK, a judge may not punish you, but that would be purely down to the judge, you could just as easily be sent to prison.

 

Bedwards, its not you fault and I can understand your lack of understanding as you not a police officer but a lot of what your saying is wrong. I'm not talking about the law but the processes involved.

 

To make this very clear if someone gets arrested and the officer in the case and the custody sarge think there is no case to answer then it will never get to the cps. The custody officer has the authority to charge refuse and this happens a lot.

 

Picture this......Sarge I've nicked this bloke for illegal possession of a shotgun but here is a letter from us saying its ok and the police won't prosecute. Sir let me show you to the door and have a nice day.

 

I'm not getting into an argument over points of law but honestly speaking from vast experience of arresting people, custody and the cps I will not be loosing any sleep over this issue.

[bedwards1966]

Bedwards, its not you fault and I can understand your lack of understanding as you not a police officer but a lot of what your saying is wrong. I'm not talking about the law but the processes involved.

 

To make this very clear if someone gets arrested and the officer in the case and the custody sarge think there is no case to answer then it will never get to the cps. The custody officer has the authority to charge refuse and this happens a lot.

 

Picture this......Sarge I've nicked this bloke for illegal possession of a shotgun but here is a letter from us saying its ok and the police won't prosecute. Sir let me show you to the door and have a nice day.

 

I'm not getting into an argument over points of law but honestly speaking from vast experience of arresting people, custody and the cps I will not be loosing any sleep over this issue.

 

Well quite frankly I don't care if you lose sleep over this or not, or whether you end up imprisoned because your certificate ran out.

 

You are breaking the law, that is unquestionable. If they know you're breaking the law the police must investigate, and when it goes to CPS they have no reason not to tell the police to charge you.

Also, the letter you feel is a get out of jail free card usually doesn't even come from a police officer, but a civilian in the firearms department. Nothing whatsoever to do with the police who would have to charge you with this offence.

[Dirty Harry]

 

 

Well quite frankly I don't care if you lose sleep over this or not, or whether you end up imprisoned because your certificate ran out.

 

You are breaking the law, that is unquestionable. If they know you're breaking the law the police must investigate, and when it goes to CPS they have no reason not to tell the police to charge you.

Also, the letter you feel is a get out of jail free card usually doesn't even come from a police officer, but a civilian in the firearms department. Nothing whatsoever to do with the police who would have to charge you with this offence.

 

The more you post the more you show your lack of knowledge and understanding.