Paul223 Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 As an educated guess I would say the following probably rank in order (number of members) of the main shooting organisations that live quarry shooters are members of: BASC CA NGO CPSA (who do cover live quarry shooting of course) SACS SGA Sportsman’s Association BDS (additional policy) There will be others of course, but these account for the vast majority of the live quarry shooters who are members of organisations All of the above are not just providers of insurance cover; all have a range of services and membership benefits such as a members mag, and all, to some extent, get involved in political lobbying and media relations work to represent shooting, or their specific area of shooting – some more than others of course as some organisations have very limited resources in this area. Insurance is always a bit of a minefield, and please remember not all insurances are the same. The level of cover, say £10 million, will be the same in all cases, but if you read the policy wording, you will find there are differences in the liability covers. Some for example will not cover you if you are beating or picking up Some will not cover you for a trip to Europe Some will have an excess you have to pay Some will not pay out if you have any other insurance policy in play at the time Some will cover your guns if lent to another member, most will not And so on. Before you buy any insurance, even if its linked into a membership of an organisation, its important you get hold of and read the ‘key facts’ document, that, by law, has to list the main exclusions on the policy. Without reading that you have no idea at all what you are buying, and then you run the risk of when you come to make a claim, that cheap deal that looked so good suddenly is not so great after all! Turning to the other point, shooting accidents run at around 1 per 2000 shooters per year, the most common claims are for property damage, the most expensive claims are third party injury. The average claim at the moment runs at around £10,000 and the largest claim I have seen year to date came in at just over £1.5 million. Frankly, you would be fool to yourself NOT to be properly insured, and if shooters want to play a part in protecting the future of shooting they must be part of one or more of the organisations . David about time someone with a bit of sense (not me) did a chart with all these points (and more) and a tick / cross box for each org, then make it a sticky, so we can all compare each org side by side, we have reps from most of the orgs on here so they could advise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 there was an article last year in one of the mags, made some interesting reading. http://www.sacs.org.uk/attachments.do?attachment=42&item=197 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therealchucknorris Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 there was an article last year in one of the mags, made some interesting reading. http://www.sacs.org....ent=42&item=197 Thanks activeviii, a great spot. Having read this I'm pretty chuffed that I picked up the CA membership (with insurance) this week as the policy looks very comprehensive and with the 50% discounting down to £30 for the year it's an absolute steal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Why not ask all the various bodies for a copy of the policy that you want to buy? I am insured by this http://www.ccc3.org.uk/docs/policy.pdf and I think that it's one of the best, it even has Legal cover which a lot of the other's have not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Very good advice to check the wording of the policy before you buy that was one of my original points. Note the CCC3 legal insurance is only in relation to liability claims, unless I am mistaken? If someone makes a claim against you – then your liability insurance should pay all your legal fees anyway, and of course will also cover the legal fees of the other party if you are found liable. However, as I also said early on , organisations deliver more than just insurance, not least of all standing up for your sport… Daivd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Yes I am a member if staff at BASC, been on staff for 17 years. My main interests are pigeon shooting, beating, game and coarse fishing. I am a member of BASC, CA, GWCT and Angling Trust. Yes the BASC insurance covers beaters and pickers up both directly, and as employees of BASC members though vicarious liability David does it cover paid beaters? andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 there was an article last year in one of the mags, made some interesting reading. http://www.sacs.org....ent=42&item=197 a chart like that would be good, but with more detail does it cover paid beaters? andrew i'd like to know that too, and what do we consider to be paid, 20quid for a days beating? would that invalidate a claim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 a claim for what though? Most shoots hold employers liability to cover beaters actions but there isn't much damage you can do with a stick and a flag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Yes it does cover paid beaters. The beater / picker up will typically attend a recreational shoot and be there of their own volition, i.e. they pretty well turn up when they can on a casual basis then this is, as far as the BASC policy concerned, a recreational activity, regardless of whether they get paid a few quid, a brace or a pie and a pint – or indeed any combination of the above. Of course, remember, that beaters are ‘employed’ so their employer is vicariously liable for their actions. Some beaters, pickers up etc. though have a more permanent all be it temporary arrangement with say a commercial shoot for example, in such cases they would be classed as employees of said shoot and thus insured under the shoot policy. As to a comparison chart – yes it may be of use but it needs to be written by someone who firstly knows about insurance law, secondly who contacts the underwriters to get the details not simply rely on their one personal point of view or interpretation of the policy cover, and finally, someone who is not aligned to any one organisation. At the end of the day choose the organisation or policy that you feel fits you best. But as a minimum check the endorsements and exclusions especially: Is there an excess to pay in the event of a claim and under what circumstances? Are there any age restrictions? Are you covered for beating, picking up, loading if you get paid, even in kind? If you sell any excess game / venison are you still covered? Does the policy only apply if you have NO OTHER policy in place? If you intend to shoot overseas, does it cover you outside the UK? If you lend your guns to another member and they get damaged are they covered? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 On a side note David a few were querying whether if you had a gap at renewal time and your force said it was ok to carry on whether you would be insured. Obviously the company line is get a section 7 but if someone went with the advice of their licensing dept could they carry on shooting and be insured if they were in a gap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 We have just been through this in some detail with our underwriters, because as many of you know, sadly and frankly unforgivably several licencing teams have such inefficient practices that renewal times are stretching into months overdue – shameful!! Anyway, the agreement is this, I am pleased to advise that we can confirm that the liability cover will continue to operate, subject to it's normal terms and conditions, including that you are taking part in a recreational BASC activity. This is confirmed on the basis that; You applied for your renewal in plenty of time ahead of the renewal You have confirmation from the Police Authority that they are in receipt of the renewal application That there is no other known reason that you will be refused renewal of your certificate David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Nice one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 (edited) Look, I'm not being particulary negative about this but I do think this needs to be aired on a public forum. My trade association forum has been running a thread for quite a long time from people who have insured against public liability regarding their business operations. Come the time for claims or problems the overwhelming response from their insurers has been NO! Some of the stories are absolutely jaw dropping horror stories. All I am saying is don't take all this as being at face value. They are quick to take your money but it is not a two way thing. You may think you are covered but a lot of the companies that go in for this sort of 'minority' or specialist insurance are actually ****s of the first order and wriggle and dodge out of everything. No axe to grind personally, just reporting Edited December 2, 2012 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 (edited) I really think this is an unfair reflection on Underwriters. All the major insurers clearly state that their insurance within club membership schemes are for recreational purposes. Terms and polices are provided that form a contract between the insured and the insurer. If a person chooses to take out inappropriate insurance, and makes a claim that lies outside policy terms, its absolutely correct that the Underwriter should turn the claim down. This is not "wriggling out", this is simply not responding to a claim under a policy that does not cover the claim and for which an appropriate risk level premium has not been paid. The failure is with the policy holder not to ensure that their activities are correctly covered. We at CCC3 get daily enquiries from persons who have commercial aspects to their activities who seem to want to believe that a £24-95 policy is going to cover professional and paid work. This is naive, most Processional Indemnity policies start at about £200 and go up to £1000s.Through our brokerage at Chancery Barr Financial Services we can offer bespoke policies for such professional activities as as Public falconary flying displays, sports coaching, paid vermin control, living history groups performing at shows, water bailiffs, etc etc. and with an appropriate policy and premium there would be no question of a claim refusal for a legitimate claim within policy terms. Its very clear - if you are paid for the activity ( cash or kind), or are engaged to perform or display at a public arena, or advertise your services - you are engaged in work and not just "having fun" recreationally. You need commercial or professional indemnity, and if you choose to take out recreational cover then make a claim for a professional activity under it, you can expect to be denied. The British insurance system is one of the best and safest in the world. Regulated by the FSA to ensure Underwriters, Brokers and Introducers are all registered and monitored in their activities, and with an Ombudsman service to manage disputes independently. Claims are handled by independent loss adjusters who study the claim and the policy and recommend an outcome to Underwriters. Policy holders can appoint their own independent claims handlers to liaise. Claim denial is always because the claim is not insured or policy conditions have not been met. If underwriters were "wiggling out" of claims, their registrations would soon be revoked and they could not trade. I might reflect that far from Underwriters "wriggling out" its more likely that some disgruntled policy claimants have been trying to "pull the wool" by deliberately construing professional activities to look like recreational ones. phood for fought?? Edited December 2, 2012 by clayman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 I can only agree with Clayman, The way insurance policies and the selling of insurance is so heavily regulated by the FSA, and for that matter the Ministry of Justice, its hard if not to all intents and purposes impossible for insurers to wriggle out of a claim. The fact is that if there is a liability/ loss is incurred that is covered within the policy and the policy terms have been adhered to then how can a claim be rejected? It can’t. True enough some may not read the policy wording properly, a point I have made time and time again, and may not read the Key Facts document properly , again a point I make time and time again, so will be unsure or unaware of the extent, or limit of their cover. If in doubt, ask you insurer – before you part with your cash! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerettaSV10 Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Seeing how BASC has supported the shooters, even recently with the WHS saga, I will be switching over to them. BASC appear to be the only organisation that posts reguarly on forums and gets noticed in other right places, think its time to support them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeus Posted December 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 I hope to never be in a posistion where I need to use an insurace policy for a shooting/fieldsports related incident. It is reassuring to know orgainsations are providing a voice for us along with there represenatives providing valuable information on forums such as this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Note the CCC3 legal insurance is only in relation to liability claims, unless I am mistaken? Daivd CCC3 has three aspects of legal Cover The liability cover under P/L is to full full policy extent £2,000,000 under the Primary policy with RSA and £8,000,000 under the excess policy with Zurich. This is to defend spurious third party claims against our members, or to pay out to the same extent for negligence if proven. CCC3 does not quote a capped limit to legal defence under P/L as this aspect of legal defence is to the full policy extent at £10m total. The P/A policy has a specific £25,000 cover to pursue injury claims against third parties. Members may pursue third parties for additional compensation following injury etc under the P/A cover beyond the defined payouts of the C3 P/A policy of £10,000 plus Funeral expenses (if applicable), plus Hospital benefits( if applicable). This is a risk assessed service, ie the CCC3 legal cover responds if there is a reasonable chance of a positive outcome to injury damages being pursued against third party's. There is an unlimited damages (ie property, loss of earnings, etc) pursual service with CCC3's legal providers to pursue claims on a risk assessed basis for members, with free initial consultation. This is a no-win-no-fee service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Thanks for the clarification clayman, much appreciated. BerettaSV10 – kind words, thank you. Zeus, Thank you too, I agree, all being well none of us will ever need to claim on our shooting liability insurance, indeed, almost every claim I have ever dealt with was avoidable if very basic safety rules had been followed. However, this is not an ideal world and accidents will happen, and the cost of claims and the cost of compensation are not going down. Over the last 10 years, based on the claims we have seen at BASC, the average cost has doubled. Safe shooting David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 That bit about legal help to pursue third party claims is interesting clayman out of interest David what happens in the instance that one BASC member shoots another would the shot person have cover to pursue a claim or would they have to take it on themselves? It must happen occasionally on shoots where everyone has to be a member Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Good morning Al4x Yes ‘member to member’ claims do happen from time to time, although typically non-members are the third party. As you may be aware, the facility for no win no fee is widely available, and many law firms will give you a free consultation to review your case. If they believe there is a case for compensation they will offer to take it on for you. They will not charge their clients for their services and do not take a cut of any compensation payments made. They can do this because where a claim is successful; they will make another claim against the other sides’ insurers for legal fees. At the same time, the legal firm will typically insure your case to cover your opponent’s costs incurred on your behalf if your case is not successful. Many will not ask you to pay for the insurance premium, even if your claim does not succeed. So no member would have to take on a claim themselves, they can get free legal support from day 1 David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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