Taking gun abroad

[southrop]

Can anyone advise how much hassle is involved in taking your gun abroad to say the US or Europe to shoot an international competition? Any tips or advice gratefully received.

[welshwarrior]

Europe is easy European firearm permit (I think it's call) from feo then tell the airline gets checked at both ends they may charge you dangerous goods carriage.

 

Remember if you need to check the law in the country you travel to. Cyprus don't allow semi autos!!!!!

[100milesaway]

Make sure the airline you have booked with allows gun carrage, some don't, get it in writing. The gun must be in a lockable hard case, most airlines won't accept cartridges. You have to advise the airline and when you get to the airport, discreetley advise the check in person who will get in touch with the airport police ,who will check your gun details match up with your licence details in full view of everyone else on the plane., if all is in order they will take your gun off you and the next time you see it it will be going around on the carousel at your destination.from Auntie.

[southrop]

Many thanks all for the advice.

It sounds doable as long as you do your homework first.

[Jonno243]

Can anyone advise how much hassle is involved in taking your gun abroad to say the US or Europe to shoot an international competition? Any tips or advice gratefully received.

 

I regularly travel to Hungary with shotguns during the pheasant / duck season, both to shoot personally as part of a syndicate and as a "minder" for clients. The advice given above is all correct. Make sure that you have your EFP in order, make doubly sure that the airline knows you are planning on taking a gun (get it in writing) and be prepared for lots of messing around at the airport.

 

I have found KLM to be the best bet when transporting shotguns but on our last trip (at the end of October just past) we were charged £200 excess baggage on each of the gun cases, British Airways now also charge for carrying firearms. The other thing to be aware of is that they will almost certainly lose your guns at some point (due to the bureaucratic hoops they have to jump through) so make sure you travel at least a couple of days before you need to use them (we lost eight guns both going to, and returning from, Hungary).

 

It is possible to transport ammunition on a commercial flight but believe me it is NOT worth the hassle (it is also seriously expensive in terms of excess weight). You will also need DG Transportation notes from someone who is CAA registered as trained in the IATA regulations if you want to transport ammunition. Better to just buy the ammunition you need when you get there.

[altnipper]

I went to the usa in 1997. It was easy, police checked guns and ammo this end, hard locked cases for both, limited number of shells though 250 maybe. Other end even easier we just found our guns pilled up on a conveyor belt in the corner, no gun checks that end! Might have changed now but the usa was very relaxed unsurprisingly. This was for a shotgun.

Edited December 10, 2012 by altnipper

[Mr Potter]

I went to the usa in 1997. It was easy, police checked guns and ammo this end, hard locked cases for both, limited number of shells though 250 maybe. Other end even easier we just found our guns pilled up on a conveyor belt in the corner, no gun checks that end! Might have changed now but the usa was very relaxed unsurprisingly. This was for a shotgun.

 

I've no doubt someone who has taken shotguns into the USA since 9/11 will expand but it's not that easy now. Permit has to be obtained from the US Government and must be applied for some months in advance.

 

Mr Potter

[shakari]

Requirements vary from airline to airline and country to country & not all airlines are licenced to carry them so check before booking.

 

Some airlines, esp BA require 72 hours notice that a passenger will be travelling with a 'sporting firearm' - Be sure you use that exact term when dealing with any airline or travel agent & never call them guns or weapons etc because all airlines are bound by the Air Navigation Order, Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act and this act allows 'sporting firearms' to travel but is forbidden to carry 'weapons of war'. The defining factor between the two is if a calibre has ever been adopted by any military force anywhere in the world, ever, then it's a 'weapon of war'. As check in agents ain't usually very bright it's a good idea to use the right term so they don't get confused. Some airlines apply this rule very rigorously and others not so rigorously. BA especially tend to be in the former category.

 

Regarding ammo: Assuming the airline is licenced to carry your firearm it's also licenced to carry your ammo but ONLY 5 kgs per passenger and it must be in a container that keeps every round separated from every other round OR is in manufacturers packaging. If two people or more are travelling with firearms/ammo they must not under any circumstances combine ammo allowances in the same bag.

 

Many airlines ask that ammo then also be packed into a separate, lockable container with nothing else in it and it pays to check this when you book.

 

Black powder, black powder substitute and percussion caps in any form and/or packaging is completely prohibited on commercial passenger and/or freight aircraft at all times.

 

Most airlines now charge a handling charge and every airline will have their rules on their website.

Edited December 10, 2012 by shakari

[EdSolomons]

USA no probs at all, just allow lots of time for your paperwork to arrive before the flight (a few months to be safe). Europe is easy ish, some place easier than others.

[seeker]

As above and check your intended airlines policy under 'special baggage', then follow it ... also check your gun insurance.

 

[southrop]

Sounds doable if planned properly in sufficient time. Thanks for all your input

[welshwarrior]

The defining factor between the two is if a calibre has ever been adopted by any military force anywhere in the world, ever, then it's a 'weapon of war'.

 

If this correct you can't take a 12 bore shotgun a 303 or a 223. I've carried all of these on a plane. Not saying its not the rules but sound unlikely!!

[shakari]

Welshwarrior,

 

It's absolutely, completely, 110% correct but fortunately most if not all airlines waive the rule with regard to shotguns....... Although truth be told, it's probably more a case of ignorance than good intent.

 

If you want to find out the correct wording and sources, feel free to Google 'Air Navigation Order, Carriage Of Dangerous Goods Act or if you want to take my word for it, take a look here: http://www.shakarico...ms.html and/or here: http://www.shakarico...gulations.html. I should point out the site refers to African hunting but the Air Navigation Order, Carriage of Dangerous goods Act is international legislation and applies to all commercial airlines and all countries worldwide and was originally drawn up at the end of WWII. There are also other acts in various countries but the aforementioned act is always the ruling legislation.

 

With rifles, most airlines, especially most American airlines waived the rule for calibres such as .308 & 30.06 etc but some, notably BA (especially) often refused to allow such calibres to travel but in recent months, I've been it contact with various parties within BA and they have now confirmed that these calibres will be allowed to travel and below is a copy of a post I made on another forum:

 

 

As many of you will know BA has in the past sometimes refused to carry certain calibres because of a degree of confusion/misunderstanding of the Air Navigation Order, Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act.

 

I've finally got BA to give me a definitive answer to the question of:

 

"Assuming the passenger gives the correct 72 hours notice of travelling with firearms of .308 and/or 30-06 calibre will BA accept these calibres for travel?"

 

Their definitive answer is:

 

"I have contacted our Security Team at our head office. They have advised in answer to your questions that the general answer is yes unless the customer is travelling to an embargoed destination.

 

This is why we have set a 72-hour minimum notification rule. As long as the travel agent or British Airways reservations team enter the correct comments with the make/model/calibre details then we can give an ok or refusal in plenty of time."

 

So in theory at least, if the passenger advises the airline in the correct time period etc, 308s & 30-06s should be OK to travel.

 

FYI, the Customer Service staff member who gave me this information is Sarah Craddock (based at LHR) and the case reference number was: 10398362.

 

We'll be adding this statement to our website at www.shakariconnection.com

Edited December 12, 2012 by shakari

[shakari]

OK, this thread prompted me to do more research to see if anything has changed and my apologies for making such a long post.

 

First, a brief summary:

 

The Air Navigation Order, Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act was first drawn up in about 1945 and was very quickly adopted by all countries worldwide with the intention to ensure it was impossible for an aircraft to depart one country with a legal cargo and arrive in the destination country with an illegal cargo and of course to ensure no dangerous goods that were loaded onto an aircraft that could endanger it. The definitions between 'weapons of war' and 'sporting firearms' was originally made because so many military were returning to their home countries with what might be termed souvenirs of the lethal kind that they'd 'liberated' from one place or another. Even in the original version, the definitions were (in my opinion) not really up to scratch.

 

Every now and again, the act was amended to fine tune it but as far as I'm aware, the definitions between the two categories of firearms remained unchanged for something in the region of 67 years. However the newest amendments that seem to have been introduced in about August 2012 have finally changed.

 

The old definitions said that any calibre that had ever been adopted by any military force anywhere in the world was a 'weapon of war' and that (technically at least) prohibited calibres such as .308 & 30.06 etc as well as things like mortars and bazookas etc.

 

These definitions have now been scrapped but it should be noted the new definitions are somewhat vague and in my opinion at least should be viewed with a degree of caution.

 

All it basically says is if it's a 'weapon of war', it's not a 'sporting firearm' and if it's a 'sporting firearm', it's not a 'weapon of war' and that to me at least, is an open invitation to confuse the more simple and/or literal minded (or perhaps anti-hunting?) check in agents around the world.

 

Therefore, I'd strongly recommend that anyone travelling with firearms, no matter what their country of origin or destination or what the calibre of firearm they're taking, make a point of telling the travel agent/airline that they intend to take a SPORTING FIREARM AND AMMUNITION of whatever calibre on their travels and ensure that information is put into the comments section of their booking and they get a hard copy of the entire booking at that time. They should also ask the airline to confirm (in writing) their particular firearm/ammo will be allowed to travel and also take that written confirmation with them when they travel. Be sure to use the exact term SPORTING FIREARM rather than weapon or gun etc.

 

One should also be aware that if travelling from, to or through any EU country that the EU passed a nasty piece of legislation two or three years ago that prohibited carriage of any ammunition whatsoever from, to or through any EU country. This only remained in force for a few weeks before the airlines and others complained and the EU then issued a waiver to allow the carriage of sporting ammunition BUT they did not withdraw the original legislation.

 

Now remember they were only ever allowed to carry sporting ammunition and not weapons of war ammunition and ask yourself why the original legislation was not simply withdrawn? - My guess is it's because they intend at some point in the future to withdraw the waiver and (re)-enforce the original ban. So again, I'd strongly recommend the previous advice about getting written confirmation of permission to travel for both firearms and ammo.

 

One should also bear in mind that the previous legislation has been in force for something like 60 odd years and it may well take some considerable time for the airlines to become aware of the new amendments so we can probably expect a degree of confusion between the new and the old versions of the act for some considerable time.

 

We will be updating our website at www.shakariconnection.com with the new requirements asap.

NOTE:

The new amendments came from the UK version of the Act because it was the UK that drew up the original act at the end of WWII. These new requirements will or at least should be adopted by other countries worldwide but I would not be in the least surprised if it took a while for some of the less efficient countries to make the changes. Also note that the prohibition on firearms travelling in a baggage compartment that is accessible from the cabin whilst the aircraft is in flight remains and therefore some of the smaller aircraft such as used on short hop/domestic flights remains so if you have such a flight on your itinerary, you need to check the aircraft type before you leave home.

Info derived from:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/cap393.pdf

 

Prohibition on carrying on board sporting weapons or munitions of war

134 (1) Subject to article 135(2) and (3), it is unlawful for a person to carry or have in their

possession or take or cause to be taken on board an aircraft, to suspend or cause to

be suspended beneath an aircraft or to deliver or cause to be delivered for carriage on

an aircraft any sporting weapon or munition of war unless the provisions of paragraph

(2) are complied with.

 

(2) The provisions referred to in paragraph (1) are that:

(a) the sporting weapon or munition of war:

(i) is either part of the baggage of a passenger on the aircraft or consigned as

cargo;

(ii) is carried in a part of the aircraft, or in any apparatus attached to the aircraft

inaccessible to passengers; and

(iii) in the case of a firearm, is unloaded;

(B) information about the sporting weapon or munition of war has been supplied by

that passenger or by the consignor to the operator before the flight commences;

and

© the operator consents to the carriage of such sporting weapon or munition of war

by the aircraft.

 

Exceptions concerning carriage of weapons and munitions of war

135 (1) In the case of an aircraft which is flying under and in accordance with the terms of a

police air operator's certificate the commander of the aircraft must be informed of the

matters referred to in article 133(2)(B) but need not be so informed in writing.

(2) Article 133(3) and article 134 do not apply to or in relation to an aircraft which is flying

under and in accordance with the terms of a police air operator's certificate.

(3) Nothing in this Part applies to any sporting weapon or munition of war taken or carried

on board an aircraft registered in a country other than the United Kingdom if the

sporting weapon or munition of war may under the law of the country in which the

aircraft is registered be lawfully taken or carried on board for the purpose of ensuring

the safety of the aircraft or of persons on board.

 

Definitions

136 (1) In this Part:

(a) 'munition of war' means:

(i) any weapon or ammunition;

(ii) any article containing an explosive, noxious liquid or gas; or

(iii) any other thing,

which is designed or made for use in warfare or against persons, including parts,

whether components or accessories, for such weapon, ammunition or article;

(B) 'sporting weapon' means:

i) any weapon or ammunition;

(ii) any article containing an explosive, noxious liquid or gas; or

(iii) any other thing, including parts, whether components or accessories, for

such weapon, ammunition or article,

which is not a munition of war.

[gixer1]

Just out of interest (as I would like to take my shotgun to the states in january) would the beretta hard case be sufficient and are the guns insured by the airline, and finally what have the total costs been for just a gun?

[shakari]

The case should be fine, the airlines don't insure your baggage so you need to and handling costs will depend on which airline but that should be on their website.

 

I don't know what permits etc you'll need to get the gun into the US but would think they have some requirements of some sort.

[EdSolomons]

Needs to be lockable, and you need an ATF 6 form (off top of my head) from beureux of alcohol, firearms and tobacco.