high low or medium?

[cumbrian shooter]

where would you rate a game cartridge that puts out 1254fps -380mps? Slow average or fast?

cheers c.s

[Guest cookoff013]

average.

so average.

 

dont get too hept up on the spped of cartridges, there are just decent cartridges and less decent.

[casts_by_fly]

I woud call it about right. Also call it a nice easy shooting cartridge. If that is 36 g of #5 then i would call it the perfect pheasant cartridge for driven birds.

 

Rick

[clayman]

It would be better to ask is a cartridge ballistically poor / average / good.

 

MV has little to do with this and its a common mistake for people to imaging that higher MVs are better carts.

 

The wad, powder type, antinomy levels all have a bearing on the quality of the shot cloud, which is what makes a cartridge a "good" one, and very often the faster ones have poorer shot cloud shapes.

 

Unless the cartridge design has premium components of wad / powder type ( progressive not explosive) / high antinomy ( harder shot has less deformation) then the shot string will cone out with a hollow trailing centre and lots of loose flyers trailing back that do not have any kill density on the edge of the pattern.

 

Slower cartridges tend to have much better formed shot clouds with more effective pellets in the effective shot pattern.

 

There is also a conflict between best pattern performance using harder shot ( less side flyers) and the best antinomy levels for game rather than clay. Pellets that are softer deform more on impact with quarry and cause more trauma for a kill, but also deform more in the barrel leaving less pellets in the working pattern. 2-3% for game is a good compromise - 4-6% for clays - or plated shot can stop barrel deformation while remaining soft on impact.

 

MV speed is also just that - at the muzzle ( usually measured 0-2m out), almost all the shotload declaration occurs in the next 10m down to around the speed of sound - around 1100 fps - regardless of the exit velocity, so for 3/4 of the effective flight travel shot loads are more or less going the same speed regardless of how fast they left the barrel. This is why the lead needed for a 1500fps is hardly different from that of a 1250 fps cartridge.

 

Some sources suggest the optimum MV is around 1250 to retain pattern shape while still giving reach, and many of the best cartridge brands rely on user recommendation on effectiveness rather than tech spec on the box to sell themselves, as today the public is hung up on believing fast is good, when the truth is most slower loads actually kill / break more

 

Don't get hung up on faster is better, it often isn't

Edited December 23, 2012 by clayman

[matone]

It would be better to ask is a cartridge ballistically poor / average / good.

 

MV has little to do with this and its a common mistake for people to imaging that higher MVs are better carts.

 

The wad, powder type, antinomy levels all have a bearing on the quality of the shot cloud, which is what makes a cartridge a "good" one, and very often the faster ones have poorer shot cloud shapes.

 

Unless the cartridge design has premium components of wad / powder type ( progressive not explosive) / high antinomy ( harder shot has less deformation) then the shot string will cone out with a hollow trailing centre and lots of loose flyers trailing back that do not have any kill density on the edge of the pattern.

 

Slower cartridges tend to have much better formed shot clouds with more effective pellets in the effective shot pattern.

 

There is also a conflict between best pattern performance using harder shot ( less side flyers) and the best antinomy levels for game rather than clay. Pellets that are softer deform more on impact with quarry and cause more trauma for a kill, but also deform more in the barrel leaving less pellets in the working pattern. 2-3% for game is a good compromise - 4-6% for clays - or plated shot can stop barrel deformation while remaining soft on impact.

 

MV speed is also just that - at the muzzle ( usually measured 0-2m out), almost all the shotload declaration occurs in the next 10m down to around the speed of sound - around 1100 fps - regardless of the exit velocity, so for 3/4 of the effective flight travel shot loads are more or less going the same speed regardless of how fast they left the barrel. This is why the lead needed for a 1500fps is hardly different from that of a 1250 fps cartridge.

 

Some sources suggest the optimum MV is around 1250 to retain pattern shape while still giving reach, and many of the best cartridge brands rely on user recommendation on effectiveness rather than tech spec on the box to sell themselves, as today the public is hung up on believing fast is good, when the truth is most slower loads actually kill / break more

 

Don't get hung up on faster is better, it often isn't

 

Many people should digest this info! Speed is definitely not everything with shotguns.

[sitsinhedges]

I have found that despite what is written on the side of a box, 1250fps is a good speed for the average cartridge and using my chrono at maybe 1 metre away from the muzzle cartridges rarely do more in reality and often less. It's a bit like car manufacturers claims for miles per gallon in my experience. Nevertheless they still do the job.

[cumbrian shooter]

Good avice guys

im just trying to research 2 cartridges i use and see what i find in comparison to each other! Im planning on patterning them both through my gun to find which is best, iv cut open 5 cartriges from each make from random boxes and counted the shot in each! Im then going to pattern them on a large paper sheet with a 30" circle on it! Count the pellet strikes inside the 30" circle, divide this by the number of pellets in an unfired shell this will give me the percentage of pellets in the kill zone!

i will then pattern the gun again for point of impact! Long process but have not patterned any of them yet so looking forward to see how it goes!

c.s

 

Good avice guys

im just trying to research 2 cartridges i use and see what i find in comparison to each other! Im planning on patterning them both through my gun to find which is best, iv cut open 5 cartriges from each make from random boxes and counted the shot in each! Im then going to pattern them on a large paper sheet with a 30" circle on it! Count the pellet strikes inside the 30" circle, divide this by the number of pellets in an unfired shell this will give me the percentage of pellets in the kill zone!

i will then pattern the gun again for point of impact! Long process but have not patterned any of them yet so looking forward to see how it goes!

c.s

[Guest cookoff013]

It would be better to ask is a cartridge ballistically poor / average / good.

 

MV has little to do with this and its a common mistake for people to imaging that higher MVs are better carts.

 

The wad, powder type, antinomy levels all have a bearing on the quality of the shot cloud, which is what makes a cartridge a "good" one, and very often the faster ones have poorer shot cloud shapes.

 

Unless the cartridge design has premium components of wad / powder type ( progressive not explosive) / high antinomy ( harder shot has less deformation) then the shot string will cone out with a hollow trailing centre and lots of loose flyers trailing back that do not have any kill density on the edge of the pattern.

 

Slower cartridges tend to have much better formed shot clouds with more effective pellets in the effective shot pattern.

 

There is also a conflict between best pattern performance using harder shot ( less side flyers) and the best antinomy levels for game rather than clay. Pellets that are softer deform more on impact with quarry and cause more trauma for a kill, but also deform more in the barrel leaving less pellets in the working pattern. 2-3% for game is a good compromise - 4-6% for clays - or plated shot can stop barrel deformation while remaining soft on impact.

 

MV speed is also just that - at the muzzle ( usually measured 0-2m out), almost all the shotload declaration occurs in the next 10m down to around the speed of sound - around 1100 fps - regardless of the exit velocity, so for 3/4 of the effective flight travel shot loads are more or less going the same speed regardless of how fast they left the barrel. This is why the lead needed for a 1500fps is hardly different from that of a 1250 fps cartridge.

 

Some sources suggest the optimum MV is around 1250 to retain pattern shape while still giving reach, and many of the best cartridge brands rely on user recommendation on effectiveness rather than tech spec on the box to sell themselves, as today the public is hung up on believing fast is good, when the truth is most slower loads actually kill / break more

 

Don't get hung up on faster is better, it often isn't

this is a great post.

the only thing that i have disagreement with, is the softer lead having more trauma than harder lead. however, that is my oppinion. belting lead out at 1400fps + needs hard lead.

1200fps is a great start for loading, 1300fps is great for everyday use.

 

good post.

[Hamster]

I particularly like the bit about softer shot deforming more on impact with quarry and causing more trauma for a kill. We are talking about a 2.5 mm pellet here; just another example of confusing ballistics in general with shotgun ballistics.

 

The other thing I personally find laughable is this assertion that a fast and slow shell more or less arrive at the target with the same speed - really? Is this why all the top shells are faster rather than slower, or why the top shots all use faster shells? Basically it's a case of people in committees talking a good game on paper but not having a clue of what happens in real life. Just because most (arguably, as I don't believe so in reality) can't detect a difference in leads between a fast and slow shell doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

If you can tell the difference between the strike lapse between a .177 pellet at 800 fps and a .22 at 600 fps, then why not similar speed differentials in shotgun shells? I certainly can. Commercially loaded shells are a balance between speed/recoil/spread etc etc. I keep hearing this superiority of less pellets leading to better (better definition ) but never any takers when asked to field test this?

Edited December 24, 2012 by Hamster

[Continental Shooter]

Hi folks,

 

I think we are talking here without knowing what the cartridge is like (i.e. prime, powder, pellets size, pressure, quarry) and that make no sense at all.

 

It's like asking if 70 MPH is a good speed...... Good speed for what? For a racing car is rubbish, for an electric scooter is too much!!!

 

I would have thought that moderators look at this forum more carefully as we are talking about hazardous materials here.

 

I would have hoped that more experienced member of the forum would also encourage people to provide as much details as possible in order to produce and informative and accurate reply.

 

I would love to see requests including powder make and charge (batch would also be great as it might change from time to time), pellets charge, wad type, crimp, etc, as this all influence the load and the answer to the question.... but that's just me!

 

Please remember that this is Ballistic we are talking about and this is a science (branch of physic) and no science has produced goods on assumptions!!

 

That said, I found what Clay says perfectly agreeable, correct and good starting knowledge for reloaders, however, as he says there are distinctions to be made:

 

If this was a heavy load (32g + for 20.cal and 40+ for 12.cal) that would be an alright speed especially if used with pellets size 4 or less for instance: from my old records books I tracked down a brilliant shell in Remington Nitro Magnum of 35,5 gr. #4 (cal.20); it has a speed of 370 mt/s and is a great load for very long distances on tough quarry, also the B&P Mytos 32 gr in cal.20 have a declared speed of 370 mt/s and they work magic on wildflowing.

Viceversa, if that was a light loas (say 28g load for a 12.cal) with pellets size 6 or above, would be a very slow and probably a very inefficient load at 15-20 mt (though it would probably have a very dens pattern).

 

If someone find what Clay says amusing, I would suggest a wee reading of physics books! People should always have a basic knowledge of physics when reloading as these rules apply to all part of the ballistic; internal, external and terminal.

 

Also, softer lead will expand more on impact therefore hitting the quarry with a bigger surface hence transferring more kinetic energy to the part affected, it's therefore correct to assume more damages are done. However, this also depends on which part of the quarry you hit, what time of the year it is (winter animals are more covered), distance, and most important RESIDUAL ENERGY, which is what kills and it's not given by speed if not by the pressure applied to the load by the powder when still in the barrel.

 

Hamster, as said above, it all depends what the shell is for and how has been built! top brand don't have only fast loads, that's bull+++t (pardon my french), federal, remington, B&P, Fiocchi all have fast and slow shell depending on the purpose of the load.

For heavy load (as specified above) none of the big brand have a high velocity shell ( 400 mt/s +) even if they declare so, for a 32gr +(20.cal) or 40gr +(12 cal) 380 mt/s is more than enough to guarantee a clean strike up to 40mt.

 

To clarify: Bigger pellets (#4 or below) loose speed at a slower rate that smaller pellets (#5 and above), therefore, for terminal ballistic purposes, a load with pellets #3 shot a 380 mt/s will hit the target approximately at the same speed of one with pellets #5 shot at 420 mt/s, this is due to the sectional density of the pellets.

 

It would be funny to see you launching 50 gr (12 cal) at 420-440 mt/s without blowing your gun and possibly yourself. (don't do that !!)

 

 

Also, you could assume what the strike lapse will be on shotgun shells as well, but never be sure. A rifle round is one block of lead going at a steady speed (and slowing down steadily for gravity reasons).

Shotgun shell will pattern with front and outer pellets slowing down faster as more deformed and subject to air resistance at a higher rate that those in the middle of the pattern. Therefore you could well estimate the striking lapse but it will only be theoretical and not practical I am afraid.

 

Finally, about less pellets patterning better: again it all depends on what components have been used. If you use a fiber wad with 28gr will pattern worse than a plastic bior wad (the latter has better gas retention) which will pattern worse than a 27 with plastic cup. Then again, it will depend on the balance of the load: high pressure loads pattern wider than low pressure ones.

 

Also, if the size of the pellets that matter: take for instance a load of 32gr #4 (20 cal) and a 36 # 3 (20 cal) there are about 15 pellets more on the 32gr.....

 

As said,there is a all lot of data to be digested before stating anything which other might misinterprets, that I would seriously be careful

 

One last thing: for those who use the chrono for calculating speed of shotshell.....that 's a very ineffective and misleading way to calculate speed as the distance between the first pellets and the last pellets will always give an inaccurate and untrue reading....

Unless you have a proofed load which you can compared data with, I would refrain from trusting the chrono to measuring speed on shotshells.

 

Many Thanks for reading and apologies if I offended anyone as this was not my intention!

 

Cheers

 

Franco

[Hamster]

Hi folks,

Also, softer lead will expand more on impact therefore hitting the quarry with a bigger surface hence transferring more kinetic energy to the part affected, it's therefore correct to assume more damages are done. However, this also depends on which part of the quarry you hit, what time of the year it is (winter animals are more covered), distance, and most important RESIDUAL ENERGY, which is what kills and it's not given by speed if not by the pressure applied to the load by the powder when still in the barrel.

 

 

heers

 

Franco

 

Hi Franco,

 

Regarding the above statement which I've read countless times before too, no it doesn't, at least not in any documented meaningful way. Yes it is true that high velocity bullet rounds are known to behave very differently depending on whether you use jacketed bullets V soft bullets designed to mushroom etc but to then just equate things in a similar vein in shotgunning terms is just fanciful lazy assumptions. Who did these studies that proved soft 2.5 mm pellets out of a game shell despatch game cleaner than harder clay loads of similar size?

 

In fact if we're pedantic and take the actualities into account then a game shell (owning to it's softer lead) is more likely to throw more open patterns compared to clay loads. If this is the case then there is in fact every chance that fewer pellets would hit the bird in the first place no? In my experience clay loads kill every bit as good (better really) than game loads, the only real difference is pretty pictures on the packaging and of course a much higher price.

 

Regarding the strike lapse I was referring to airgun pellets not shot gun shells, having said that I CAN tell the difference between a fast and slow shell. Not so easy with fast V medium of course but absolutely no trouble whatsoever with fast V slow. I once took 900 Victory 480's back for a swap when having used them on a full round I saw going away clays hit and remain unbroken plus broke the trailing bird of a pair when intending to shoot the front one . I'm no speed merchant but I KNOW a fast shell demolishes rangey going away birds better than standard stuff, so for me all this they're really arriving downrange more or less the same speed is day dreaming.

 

The trouble with the internet is people read a few things here and there, glean a little knowledge themselves, take what sounds plausible as gospel and then before you know it something becomes established fact. Not with me I'm glad to say, I accept things once they've been proven beyond doubt.

[Hamster]

Another fact that crops up with boring regularity is that fast loads blow patterns particularly when coupled with more shot. The only tiny flaw is that without exception when different manufacturers top notch fast loads are tested they all manage to throw beautiful dense patterns, what's more their 28g offering is NEVER bested by their 24g in percentage terms !

[cumbrian shooter]

I just wanted to ask if its the normal mv for a factory made game cartridge, just doing abit of research on a cartridge i like and comparing it with another i use! I know its not important and im not hung up on fast mv, it was simply for my own knowledge,

thank you for the posts

[hawkfanz]

years ago there used to be articles by a guy called homeloader in shooting times who advocated low velocity,useing large shot sizes an they worked very well for fowling patterns could hold together for 50 yds,this is on the basis that if its slower it slows down correspondingly slower and heavy shot holds its energy better.so it reaches the target with the same energy as the fast one but retains better pattern.

[Guest cookoff013]

years ago there used to be articles by a guy called homeloader in shooting times who advocated low velocity,useing large shot sizes an they worked very well for fowling patterns could hold together for 50 yds,this is on the basis that if its slower it slows down correspondingly slower and heavy shot holds its energy better.so it reaches the target with the same energy as the fast one but retains better pattern.

thats a fantastic post.

allow me to add more, when bismuth first came out it did fragment lots in the barrel upon the firing sequence. loading slower managed to reduce this, but as compensation bigger shot was used. then the blends of more tin were used to reduce fracturing on setback.

 

@ cumbrian shooter

most cartridges never get the quoted speed on the box. a few here have tried many brands. just shoot what you feel comfortable with.

[cumbrian shooter]

Cheers mate will do, im first to admit i know very little about ballistics and always keen to learn do please forgive me if i sound a little bit green on the subject lol!

 

Im in the process of trying as many brands as i can to find a cartridge to suit my needs and so far rottweil special 36 is doing a great job for decoying crows, and pigeon! So i think il stick with them! Some may say its a hell of a cartridge for woodies but in actual fact it was deseigned for pigeon! It uses 2.7mm shot which i think equates to english #5 1/2?

 

 

[hawkfanz]

years ago i used to load these low velocity loads that were in shooting times,powder was nobel 82 a slow burner not available now shotload was 1 1/2 oz no1,useing a plaswad obviously all that lead wouldn,t fit in the cup but it didnt seem to matter,cant remember what charge the powder was but it got me all my geese on anglesey.

[Continental Shooter]

I just wanted to ask if its the normal mv for a factory made game cartridge, just doing abit of research on a cartridge i like and comparing it with another i use! I know its not important and im not hung up on fast mv, it was simply for my own knowledge,

thank you for the posts

 

Cumbrian mate, as I said before you can't ask what's the normal/average speed of a load without giving more details.

 

As before, 380 is good for an heavy load but not so good for a light load, also, depending on the wad could be bad for both.....

 

It's like going to the car dealer and ask if 70 is a good speed.....

[Continental Shooter]

years ago i used to load these low velocity loads that were in shooting times,powder was nobel 82 a slow burner not available now shotload was 1 1/2 oz no1,useing a plaswad obviously all that lead wouldn,t fit in the cup but it didnt seem to matter,cant remember what charge the powder was but it got me all my geese on anglesey.

 

The cup holds the pellets that will follow the first spread to keep them tight, avoid the from changing shape in the barrell therefore retaining speed and terminal energy (which is what kills).

 

Basically the first pellets, even if deformed, clear the air for the one that follow, which being intact, are faster and stronger.

 

That's why you got all the geese, coz the bulk of the load was well formed sferic pellets.

[Continental Shooter]

years ago there used to be articles by a guy called homeloader in shooting times who advocated low velocity,useing large shot sizes an they worked very well for fowling patterns could hold together for 50 yds,this is on the basis that if its slower it slows down correspondingly slower and heavy shot holds its energy better.so it reaches the target with the same energy as the fast one but retains better pattern.

 

Exactly, that's because for the laws of motion (in physics) "an object's momentum is directly related to the object's mass and velocity", therefore, the bigger the mass the more velocity it retain, ultimately transferring more kinetic energy to the target.

 

This can be explained with the following formulae F= P x (VxV) / 9,81 x2 (all in Kg) where F is the Kinetic Energy or force P is the wheight of the projectile (or pellet)

 

So, a shot size 2 has aweigh of 0.298 gr shot at 380 mt/s will result in F= 2.193 kg; a shot size 6 weigh 0.091 gr shot at 380 mt/s will result in F= 0.699 KG

 

Hope this clarifies why bigger shot don't need much speed to be lethal.

 

Thanks

[Mikaveli]

This can be explained with the following formulae F= P x (VxV)

 

That's a bit long winded for me, I'd have just wrote it as F= P(V²)

[Continental Shooter]

Hamster,

 

Regarding the above statement which I've read countless times before too, no it doesn't, at least not in any documented meaningful way. Yes it is true that high velocity bullet rounds are known to behave very differently depending on whether you use jacketed bullets V soft bullets designed to mushroom etc but to then just equate things in a similar vein in shotgunning terms is just fanciful lazy assumptions. Who did these studies that proved soft 2.5 mm pellets out of a game shell despatch game cleaner than harder clay loads of similar size?

 

Right, I believe those who have deliberately used these fanciful lazy assumptions are the fathers of modern physics….basically the basis of the world as we know it…. so, I’d use a bit of respect!

 

No man like me and you can argue with those statements, though, there are facors which affects the results produced by these statements especially when it comes to ballistic.

 

If you notice, I used the word ‘assume’, because is physically proved that if 2.5 kg hit you on a surface of 2.5 SQmm, causes much more internal damages that if the same weigh hit you on 1 SQmm (otherwise there won’t be a reason to create expandables bullets)….

 

Tough, I also explained that it depends where you hit the target and season but then again, I shold have added: air density, pellet deformation, choke, barrell, prime, wad, powder, wind, temperature and not least the shooter confidence on the load, can all affect the outcome.

 

Targets are made of clay, and are harded than flesh, hence why the pellets for clay shooting are made with a higher quantity af antmony, to make pellets hard enough to break the clay.

 

Game pellets have a lesser quantity of antimony, therefore, it might happen that in certain circumstances they fail to break the clay or kill the quarry.

 

Again, if you had to shoot all the time 5% antimony….each pigeon will cost you a fortune

 

In fact if we're pedantic and take the actualities into account then a game shell (owning to it's softer lead) is more likely to throw more open patterns compared to clay loads.

 

That’s partly correct. The outer pellets are the more deformed and tend to open soner, however, those make way to he inner ones who are protected, that’s why when patterning you only look at the center of the target.

 

 

Regarding the strike lapse I was referring to airgun pellets not shot gun shells,

 

I realised that on second reading… soz!

 

 

The trouble with the internet is people read a few things here and there, glean a little knowledge themselves, take what sounds plausible as gospel and then before you know it something becomes established fact. Not with me I'm glad to say, I accept things once they've been proven beyond doubt

 

Ballistic isn’t an exact science as too many factors affect the external and terminal part, however, there are things that can be assumed to be correct in principle, though, field practice is still an important part.

 

I used to load shells for neighbours back home and despite them throwing an awfullish pattern…. They killed beautifully and were amongst my favourites for small migrating birds.

 

That again proves that field trial is a must for every loader or load.

 

Cheers now,

 

Franco

 

That's a bit long winded for me, I'd have just wrote it as F= P(V²)

 

You're right but couldn't work out the with the "^2" new keybord

[cumbrian shooter]

 

 

Cumbrian mate, as I said before you can't ask what's the normal/average speed of a load without giving more details.

 

As before, 380 is good for an heavy load but not so good for a light load, also, depending on the wad could be bad for both.....

 

It's like going to the car dealer and ask if 70 is a good speed.....

no worries mate,

36g rottweil special #5 in plastic wad! I see what you guys are saying, theres alot more to a cartridge than m.v, im learning as i go along so thankyou for your patience! Lol

[Hamster]

Hi Continental Shooter,

 

You're killing me softly with ballistics . High antimony clay loads (5% if you like) are cheaper than softer shot game equivalents, that's what I'm trying to tell you. We're being had by the manufacturers , they tell you soft imparts more energy to the game thus giving better kills because soft lead is cheaper to produce so it's win win for them. They charge more just for putting a fancy high class sounding name on the box with the odd majestic looking game bird on it, it's called marketing, nothing to do with fathers of modern physics.

 

Some fall for it, others like me do an Eminem and let the middle finger linger. To even suggest such small shot as used on game has a mushroom effect similar to high velocity bullets which in turn imparts some sort of magic quick kill trick is absolutely laughable. You're so fond of ballistics yet fail to see that a higher velocity harder pellet has much more chance of even getting through the plumage of a bird in the first place. It has more chance of penetrating and causing damage along the way which is why those who try high velocity hard clay loads (in an appropriate shot size) on pigeon for instance very often report fantastic results. Manufacturers will tell you what they need to tell you to get stuff sold and off their shelves, if hard shot became cheaper tomorrow I guarantee you there'll be new lines extolling the virtues of them against old fashioned cheap shot .

Edited December 28, 2012 by Hamster

[EdSolomons]

Pretty much as above. If you think the difference between a clay load and game load is anything other than a bigger brass head and some nice packaging then you are daydreaming.

 

Fair enough if playing with cartridges is a hobby, but trying to go into this level of detail with what ammo you use will only confuse you and will do nothing positive for your shooting. You can worry about wad, antimony, soft, hard, fast etc all you like but it will make sod all difference to the end result. Pellets on bird= dead, no pellets on bird= miss.

 

Get outside an pull the trigger instead of waking up in a cold sweat about how fast your shells are or if the wad is the right type :-)

 

Simple!