Jody Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Hi all I am looking to get a gundog to train myself. I have a lab already but she is more a family pet than a gun dog she only comes shooting when I use an air rifle as she is shy of the loud bangs but will retrieve well. I've tried to stop her shyness and introduce her to gun fire but its not working so instead of stress her out I am looking for another dog to train as my shooting partner. I have been looking at springer spaniels and cocker spaniels but am unsure of which one to go for. I know they are both great breeds and will do the job well but just can't decide, it will be used for all sorts of shooting rough, pigeon, beeting, pheasant and the occasional wildfowling I am leaning towards a springer as they are a bit bigger and would help if I shot a larger bird but! I have seen my friends cocker and its brilliant does everything perfect he has said it struggles a bit on larger birds but never gives up any advice will help. This will be the first dog I have trained I have the Chris green DVDs and the help of some guys who I shoot with so hoping I will do a good job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 (edited) By the range of shooting you are talking about doing it sounds like you need a Lab and a Spaniel. I have two labs and a springer. Labs I use for picking up and pigeon shooting, Springer is for beating and working under the Hawks and a little rough shooting. If you can only have one dog, I would have a think about what type of shooting you do most of and get the dog that suits most of the work you are going to give it. I did try a Cocker but ended up selling it as a trained dog when I had finished it, as I could not take to the dog. Edited December 25, 2012 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpentermark Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 (edited) Just one thing to think of mate, Springers are very strong willed dogs and take alot of training and bonding to get right (i know from experience) its taken me three years to get my dog to a stage that im happy with. I did alot of things wrong at first by listening to others who all had different things to say, i eventually learned that each spaniel is different and requires individual training methods. i would never be without a Springer now though but i wish someone would've told me in the beginning how much time i'd have to put in to him and how much they stress you out................. 'cause i'd have got a COCKER! Good luck. Mark. Edited December 25, 2012 by carpentermark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jody Posted December 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Thanks for the info guys. On the most part I do pigeons and rough shooting and beating when pheasants are in season thats why I was leaning towards a springer. I will do a little more looking in to it before I decide. I wasn't really considering a lab although I have had them all my life and my dad has 2 which are retired now as is he, something a bit smaller would suite me more ill let you know what I get and how the training goes. Thanks Again Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Get another lab,3 dogs in one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 26, 2012 Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 Springer if its not to be another lab, Quite simply due to size! A pheasant is a good size mouthful for a cocker and a big Hare or Goose can prove too much for smaller dogs over rough ground even if they have all the heart in the world. A good big un beats a good little un when it comes to bigger quarry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted December 26, 2012 Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 ....a big Hare or Goose can prove too much for smaller dogs over rough ground even if they have all the heart in the world. A good big un beats a good little un when it comes to bigger quarry Them may be the rules of thumb, Kent - but since dogs ain't got thumbs , they don't always apply. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted December 26, 2012 Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 I agree with Actionpigeons... sounds like you need both! Lab's do hide work, flighting and wildfowling. Spaniels do the hunting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jody Posted December 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 I know my lab will retrieve anything from water or land but that's only if its shot with an airgun or suppressed gun. I am finding it a real job to turn her from being gun shy she loves the guns and is excited by them when i get them out but as soon as it goes off she will sit under my feet and won't move. She gets really stressed by it even with fireworks from a distance. I may try again as a spaniel will fit in perfect for most things apart from sitting in a hide all day. I keep making a decision then going to sleep waking up and changing my mind on what to get I'm doing my mrs head in with it ha but it has to be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outlander Posted December 26, 2012 Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 My springer was very nervous around guns for quite a while untill she realised that it was far more fun than staying at home every time i went shooting, she now loves it but it did take a while for her to get used to it. Only you can make your mind up about which breed but you very rarely get everything you need in one dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 As much heart and experience a smaller dog might well have- you canna break the laws of physics Captain ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 Personally I would get your dog out beating with others, in the presence of plenty of game and excitement they generally decide against being scared of shooting. If it already picks up fine then you are half way there, its well worth a try before buying another as you might find it goes the same way as the first. Fireworks etc its surprising how they can react to another scared dog and join in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 I know my lab will retrieve anything from water or land but that's only if its shot with an airgun or suppressed gun. I am finding it a real job to turn her from being gun shy she loves the guns and is excited by them when i get them out but as soon as it goes off she will sit under my feet and won't move. She gets really stressed by it even with fireworks from a distance. I may try again as a spaniel will fit in perfect for most things apart from sitting in a hide all day. I keep making a decision then going to sleep waking up and changing my mind on what to get I'm doing my mrs head in with it ha but it has to be right. I too have owned a genuine "gun shy" dog, she even disliked the noise of an air pellet in flight but tolerated it. Gun shy and "gun nervy" are two very different things. My present lab pup became a bit nervy as he was asleep a few times when I fired the ported 3 1/2" magnum from the hide over him. It was quick enough cured though by breaking the rules and letting him run into the fall the association of BANG=Retrieve normally a bad thing cured him of developing his shyness / suprise into something far worse (yeah most faults are our fault). Ok I am now working on running in but again I would rather fix that then develop him into gun shy from merely gun nervy. GUN SHYNESS in its truest form is near as heck impossible to cure. you recognised it and are making the correct decision for you and your other dog. Breed is no guarantee anyway some labs are pants in the hide but great hunters and I know of some decent spaniels in the hide. I have personally seen Albert 888 's ESS develop from a pure get out and hunt dog that was uncomfortable waiting to a patient and quite solid hide dog from this season to last there is a ton of difference that's only come with experience, determination and work and he is no pup and still hunts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danspence2012 Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 hi, chris green dvs are very good..... make sure you watch the first one and he has just put out an advanced double dvd which santa has just gave me, it is very good.. i work both, a cocker and a springer, i have had a lab and golden in the past and were fine for what i used them for (picking up) i now run ROUGH SHOOT and have the need for beating dogs that pick up too. both dogs do very well and work up to 4 times a week. my little cocker has no problem hunting for full grown shot pheasants and brining them back to me. both cocker and springer will love you to death and are very eger to please, and a joy to train and work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jody Posted December 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 hi, chris green dvs are very good..... make sure you watch the first one and he has just put out an advanced double dvd which santa has just gave me, it is very good.. i work both, a cocker and a springer, i have had a lab and golden in the past and were fine for what i used them for (picking up) i now run ROUGH SHOOT and have the need for beating dogs that pick up too. both dogs do very well and work up to 4 times a week. my little cocker has no problem hunting for full grown shot pheasants and brining them back to me. both cocker and springer will love you to death and are very eger to please, and a joy to train and work with. I have the double one what Santa got for me to. Where can I get his first one? I have also been reading "Training The Working Spaniel" by Janet Menzies which I find very good and was recommended to me buy a guy who I shoot with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danspence2012 Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 (edited) hi the first 1 from here http://www.countrysi...g-Dogs_2_66.php and the double one (advanced) which you have from same place here http://www.countrysi...ining_2_129.php the first one is very good goes very in depth were as most only touch a subject and dont really tell you what exercises to do, to achive the same result as the trainer. plus he gives you hints and tips all the way about any problems you may face. the second double dvd (which i think santa got us) is very good too picks up from the first dvd gives you loads of good ideas. i have to rewatch evey time im train ing adog as there are small things which i forget.. but very good wouldnt do with out it Edited December 27, 2012 by danspence2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert 888 Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 Go for a springer,i have two and they will run rings rounds labs. I havent trained mine to a book or dvd. They are as loyal as any lab and do extreamly well at beating hunting picking up foxdrives and wildfowling.You will never trip up over one either. Get on top of sitting still and ranging first and that should sort them for hide work. Both of mine are poor in a hide but make up in other ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 By the range of shooting you are talking about doing it sounds like you need a Lab and a Spaniel.(or a brittany) I have two labs and a springer. Labs I use for picking up and pigeon shooting(i use a brittany), Springer is for beating and working under the Hawks(i use a brittany) and a little rough shooting(again a brittany). If you can only have one dog,( I would get a brittany) I would have a think about what type of shooting you do most of and get the dog that suits most of the work you are going to give it. I did try a Cocker but ended up selling it as a trained dog when I had finished it, as I could not take to the dog. Look beyond springers and labs,there are some great other breeds out there,Granted ESS will hit the cover harder,and a lab will pick up a goose in a force eight with the tide against it,but if you want an all rounder look around,brittanys are a good place to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 I`ve got Labs ,Springers and Cockers. In my opinion you can`t do better, choose one of those breeds which appeals to you and you wont be disappointed. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 Finding a good Brittany for sale in the uk is like looking for a needle in a haystack non the less Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danspence2012 Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 well said bill.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 Finding a good Brittany for sale in the uk is like looking for a needle in a haystack non the less You do have a point there, but there are a couple of kennels breeding good lines these days. The Brittany club is a good starting point, they are on the Web. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 the one thing worth mentioning is there are cockers and there are cockers, round here they seem to be a fair size in the majority and its surprising how fashions change but on the estates I beat on about 70% of the dogs used for picking up are now cockers. I can think of one springer then in the beating lines its mostly cockers with the odd lab thrown in and my GWP for good measure. The nice thing about cockers is they are slightly smaller than springers which helps if they are in the house and really round here its unlikely geese are going to be anything other than a very rare occurrence. Anything else on the game shooting front a cocker can retrieve. There are also a couple of good breeders who also run training that I could put you in touch with which tends to make the difference, the only thing I would do is make sure you don't buy a ginger one. Far too easy to mistake for a fox which is far from a good thing, we have one that gets left at home on beaters day and the owner is terrified someone will make a mistake and having seen it working cover it would be very easy to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted December 28, 2012 Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 (edited) Look beyond springers and labs,there are some great other breeds out there,Granted ESS will hit the cover harder,and a lab will pick up a goose in a force eight with the tide against it,but if you want an all rounder look around,brittanys are a good place to start. Look beyond springers and labs,there are some great other breeds out there,Granted ESS will hit the cover harder,and a lab will pick up a goose in a force eight with the tide against it,but if you want an all rounder look around,brittanys are a good place to start. Cant see why you would add on to what I posted Wesh1. unless you are are not up to putting you own name behind a Brittany I have been around dogs a long, long time, attended hawk meeting, with Brittany's attending, I have been beating, with Brittany's attending, I have been shooting, with Brittany's attending. I have just about seen every type of gun-dog work you can think of and I have NEVER seen a good Brittany. I would not have one given to me free, or give one kennel space. I know a lot of lads that have them, but the Brittany are a Jack of all trades and master of none. Half wont face cover, In the autumn when the cover is still up and they go on point you struggle to see them. in the very cold weather they shiver all the time as there coat is poor. A mate of mine has one that if the door is left open, it runs off, and so on. Now the law of averages say there has to be a good one some where, but I'm sorry to say I have not come across a good one yet. If you want a pointer: buy a German for rough cover or an English for the moors. if you want a retriever: buy a lab If you want a H,R.: buy a Cocker or a Springer. all the above breeds have been bred over the years and proved there worth. At the end of the day, get the dog that fits in with most of the shooting that you do. Edited December 28, 2012 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jody Posted December 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 the one thing worth mentioning is there are cockers and there are cockers, round here they seem to be a fair size in the majority and its surprising how fashions change but on the estates I beat on about 70% of the dogs used for picking up are now cockers. I can think of one springer then in the beating lines its mostly cockers with the odd lab thrown in and my GWP for good measure. The nice thing about cockers is they are slightly smaller than springers which helps if they are in the house and really round here its unlikely geese are going to be anything other than a very rare occurrence. Anything else on the game shooting front a cocker can retrieve. There are also a couple of good breeders who also run training that I could put you in touch with which tends to make the difference, the only thing I would do is make sure you don't buy a ginger one. Far too easy to mistake for a fox which is far from a good thing, we have one that gets left at home on beaters day and the owner is terrified someone will make a mistake and having seen it working cover it would be very easy to do. Alex that would be good if you could put me in touch with them for help with training and to see if they have any pups coming up soon. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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