wildfowler.250 Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 Why do you have to on your licence what you can and can't shoot,(for example deer or vermin). Surely you should just apply for a caliber and if its granted you should be legally covered for all game. For example: if you had a .270 with only deer on your ticket; if you saw a wild boar you wouldn't legally be allowed to shoot it,(even with the landowners permission)? You'd have the hassle of applying for a variation? Is there any logic behind it or is it just a farse. Surely if they grant you a caliber that should be the end of it,(like a shotgun for all bird and ground game). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pboro shot Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 things are changing slowly a fair few forces are issueing all legal quarry on fac but theres still a few making it up as they go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 Its comparitively new for a FAC to state quarry as individual species. It used to be common to just say game/vermin. I don't really see the need to state a species except perhaps in the matter of deer and that legislation but even then you are covered by the existing requirements so is it necessary to re-state the obvious?. So every rule grows another rule Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 silly england and silly rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 Deer are the main issue that seem to keep this happening and then only till you add them then it seems to get less restrictive. I've got deer and pests on mine on all calibers even though the HMR would be illegal for deer. Boar wise could be interesting as there is a recommended minimum caliber bandied about but nothing actually in law, generally you won't get boar written on your ticket unless the gun meets the recommendations but were I to shoot one and call it a pest with my .243 I don't know they would have a leg to stand on. I wouldn't as we don't have any here but its an interesting query Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted March 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 well interesting to hear your thoughts. Im sure I asked for 'all legal quarry' on mine but came back with deer and vermin. I'm not too bothered about it, I just don't see the need for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VikingRebel Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 Is there any logic behind it or is it just a farse. Surely if they grant you a caliber that should be the end of it,(like a shotgun for all bird and ground game). If you go looking for any logic behind the majority of our firearms rules and regulations, you will be searching for a very, very long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) Why do you have to on your licence what you can and can't shoot,(for example deer or vermin). Surely you should just apply for a caliber and if its granted you should be legally covered for all game. For example: if you had a .270 with only deer on your ticket; if you saw a wild boar you wouldn't legally be allowed to shoot it,(even with the landowners permission)? You'd have the hassle of applying for a variation? Is there any logic behind it or is it just a farse. Surely if they grant you a caliber that should be the end of it,(like a shotgun for all bird and ground game). This has been done on here before. It is a case that people are misreading what these conditions actually say. The condition doesn't dictate what you can only use it for, it stipulates what you must use it for. It's related to the good reason in that if you aren't using it for that purpose (the purpose you gave as you 'good reason' when you applied) then you have no reason to have a cert. If you have a condition which says 'shall be used for the lawful shooting of deer' then how can you be in breach of that condition if you shoot a boar, or a fox? Logically you can not be. If it said 'shall only be used for the lawful shooting of deer' then you would be in breach of the condition if you shot anything else. To further back up the point. If you have a pistol for humane dispatch the condition reads 'shall be used only in connection with the humane dispatch of animals'. That clearly means that you cannot use it for anything else. Now, the question must be asked as to why they feel the need to put the word 'only' in that condition. It's because the 1997 Act restricts pistols held on FAC's to only that use (and a few others) so you are not legally allowed to use it for anything else. The Act actually says that the condition must allow its use only in connection with the humane dispatch of animals. That is not the case with rifles though and the fact that the Act specifically says that a pistol must be held subject to that condition suggests that the more usual conditions applied to rifles do not, in fact, restrict their use to specific species or uses. It's just another ridiculously out of date things about our firearms law, I'm afraid. J. Edited March 7, 2013 by JonathanL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 Deer are the main issue that seem to keep this happening and then only till you add them then it seems to get less restrictive. I've got deer and pests on mine on all calibers even though the HMR would be illegal for deer. Boar wise could be interesting as there is a recommended minimum caliber bandied about but nothing actually in law, generally you won't get boar written on your ticket unless the gun meets the recommendations but were I to shoot one and call it a pest with my .243 I don't know they would have a leg to stand on. I wouldn't as we don't have any here but its an interesting query I'm quite sure that you would have absolutely no problems at all. Unless your FAC says that you can only shoot certain animals, or something like 'must not be used for boar', then I cannot see that you would be doing anything unlawful. You would not have breached the condition on your cert. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted March 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 This has been done on here before. It is a case that people are misreading what these conditions actually say. The condition doesn't dictate what you can only use it for, it stipulates what you must use it for. It's related to the good reason in that if you aren't using it for that purpose (the purpose you gave as you 'good reason' when you applied) then you have no reason to have a cert. If you have a condition which says 'shall be used for the lawful shooting of deer' then how can you be in breach of that condition if you shoot a boar, or a fox? Logically you can not be. If it said 'shall only be used for the lawful shooting of deer' then you would be in breach of the condition if you shot anything else. To further back up the point. If you have a pistol for humane dispatch the condition reads 'shall be used only in connection with the humane dispatch of animals'. That clearly means that you cannot use it for anything else. Now, the question must be asked as to why they feel the need to put the word 'only' in that condition. It's because the 1997 Act restricts pistols held on FAC's to only that use (and a few others) so you are not legally allowed to use it for anything else. The Act actually says that the condition must allow its use only in connection with the humane dispatch of animals. That is not the case with rifles though and the fact that the Act specifically says that a pistol must be held subject to that condition suggests that the more usual conditions applied to rifles do not, in fact, restrict their use to specific species or uses. It's just another ridiculously out of date things about our firearms law, I'm afraid. J. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanl50 Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 I asked for deer and fox I got that plus the "all legal quarry" Im happy. For wild boar they generally require .308 minimum Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 I asked for deer and fox I got that plus the "all legal quarry" Im happy. For wild boar they generally require .308 minimum Alan Ive heard .270 minimum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 My .223 says fox only i.e. specifically, yet my authority have never prosecuted anyone for a breach of their firearm conditions, allegedly. If one accepts that prosecuting for a breach of condition is fraught with interpretation/cost, hence no prosecutions then why oh why dont we simply have 'all lawful quarry' ? If we are moving that way, then it is rather too slowly for my taste but maybe it will be a sweetener for the expensive renewal I will be due in a few years time? N.B. artschool - I have changed avatar to avoid comparisons and mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanl50 Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Ive heard .270 minimum I suppose it depends upon your police force! Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 My .223 says fox only i.e. specifically, yet my authority have never prosecuted anyone for a breach of their firearm conditions, allegedly. If one accepts that prosecuting for a breach of condition is fraught with interpretation/cost, hence no prosecutions then why oh why dont we simply have 'all lawful quarry' ? If we are moving that way, then it is rather too slowly for my taste but maybe it will be a sweetener for the expensive renewal I will be due in a few years time? some are worse than others but it is fact that prosecutions and revokes don't happen so it is largely self regulated. personally I have an issue with FEO's defining quarry species in a different way to the dictionary and putting their own slant on things. That can also be personal and vary within a county at which point it is entirely unenforceable. BASC are now very up front with the most common query and foxes being vermin / pests and just say crack on if you have that condition, What generally matters is what is law and obviously there are game laws and deer laws to abide by but other than that what is written on a lot of tickets is very open to interpretation and shouldn't be if they don't want it to be. they could very easily write vermin not including foxes but they don't. They tell you that over the phone in certain areas and that is not what the game is all about its about what is written on your ticket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Stand by your beds! Seen the latest from the BBC on the of Durham Constab's Firearms Dep't performance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Stand by your beds! Seen the latest from the BBC on the of Durham Constab's Firearms Dep't performance? Yep I think the words from the coroner were " failures in existing procedures by individuals involved" No kidding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Why do you have to on your licence what you can and can't shoot,(for example deer or vermin). Surely you should just apply for a caliber and if its granted you should be legally covered for all game. For example: if you had a .270 with only deer on your ticket; if you saw a wild boar you wouldn't legally be allowed to shoot it,(even with the landowners permission)? You'd have the hassle of applying for a variation? Is there any logic behind it or is it just a farse. Surely if they grant you a caliber that should be the end of it,(like a shotgun for all bird and ground game). Because it's their game played by their rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 Because it's their game played by their rules. And, now that it has been stated in a court that the people writing the rules don't even have any training to do so I think we can safely conclude that the rules are open to serious questioning! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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