.22 centrefires compared

[Tis1979]

Good post well done quite interesting

Edited April 8, 2013 by Tis1979

[Beardo]

what's the downrange energy comparison?

[fabarm gamma boy]

Come on ladys put the hand bags away please! If you shoot foxes with 22rf 17hornet 222 223 22-250 243 ect who cares how far away they are or what guns better!? If you can drop em stone dead at your comfortable ranges then what the hell does it matter?

 

the facts are good to know but is there any need to turn a post into a who knows more. Competition!

[Underdog]

Come on ladys put the hand bags away please! If you shoot foxes with 22rf 17hornet 222 223 22-250 243 ect who cares how far away they are or what guns better!? If you can drop em stone dead at your comfortable ranges then what the hell does it matter?

 

the facts are good to know but is there any need to turn a post into a who knows more. Competition!

Well said.

 

U.

[kent]

Kent also said a while back that he could easily take foxes out on the lamp at a range of 330 yards with only an 8x scope....yet now he says he has not shot over 200 on the lamp !

 

You are right though about 1 thing, lots of BS on the tinternet.

 

Could being the operative word. I have shot them much further with less mag in daylight. please don't quote me out of context because I will have been replying most probably to an 8x56 not being enough mag BS from the usual suspects. I might well have shot them at 200 yds under a lamp beam but I cannot remember it I started lamping seriously at 18 and I am 44 now. If you care to dig up the full thread though.........

[kent]

what's the downrange energy comparison?

 

Well off the top of my head if you doubled the max range for each they will all still kill a fox capably, hitting them will always be the issue. Can run any specifics but will do the full velocity not the difference this time!

[kent]

Good post well done quite interesting

 

Cheers! No illusions though this is PW

[kent]

I buy what suits my ground.22h or 222 would be plenty for me.too many folk running round here shooting stuff that is way too much for the ground.

 

I think that's touched a nerve with some, its hard to say" too much gun for the ground" as safe is safe. But its obviously surprising maybe embarrassing to some how little the gains are in the real world were most foxes and vermin are shot.

[al4x]

 

Kent also said a while back that he could easily take foxes out on the lamp at a range of 330 yards with only an 8x scope....yet now he says he has not shot over 200 on the lamp !

 

You are right though about 1 thing, lots of BS on the tinternet.

Amen to that all sounds simple on paper whereas put it into use lamping real foxes on arable ground and the hornet and 6x42 is well out of its depth. Fine when the shot is spot on and reasonably close but not when the fox is at distance or the shot placement isn't perfect. That is when the more energy in that fox the better,

[Gimlet]

How many people regularly use .22 CFs for rabbits as well as foxes? And how many people have never thought of doing so? I think those who don't are missing a trick. Calibres that can sensibly do both are invaluable and that rules out the .22-250 and the .243 - how many foxes do you honestly shoot at 500 yds? The figures show the value of the Hornet as a long range rabbit round that is fox capable and they also show how little advantage there is in a .223 over a .222. If you drop bullet weight to 40 grn, which shoot extremely well in a .222 I think the triple is the better round. Less powder, less noise, stabilises the lighter bullets to produce great accuracy. Excellent dual-purpose round and flatter with more reach than the Hornet (though not as cheap to feed).

[wymberley]

 

Fine when the shot is spot on and reasonably close but not when the fox is at distance or the shot placement isn't perfect. That is when the more energy in that fox the better,

 

Absolutely. Never a truer word said. What would be a sufficient level of energy to meet that requirement in your opinion?

[Alycidon]

As you get older you learn that for 95% of foxing needs any centerfire will do the job. Where you once had a desire for bigger/faster etc etc I developed a desire to do the same job but with less, makes it more challenging. Hornet is a very efficient case, K Hornet even more so, I have a friend who uses it for his shorter range foxes, he has had it ( a BRNO) since the early 60s and has taken over 1000 foxes with it.

 

A

[al4x]

Absolutely. Never a truer word said. What would be a sufficient level of energy to meet that requirement in your opinion?

 

the simple facts that Kent posted were quite well designed to try and promote the hornet as being the doggies danglies but to look at the bigger picture as has been mentioned by a few you need to see a few more facts, for instance gut shoot a fox at 200 with a hornet and it has the same muzzle energy as a HMR and you wouldn't expect that shot placement with a HMR to work well. The figures are massive when you start looking at 200 yard energy levels between the hornet and the other .22cf's. To show the extra data i've printed a few off using factory ammo and Kents zero for each caliber as a start. What it shows really is the .22-250 is pretty much point and shoot to 300 yards and the hornet to 200 not the 30 yards difference and that you have to be more accurate with the hornet as it is producing HMR muzzle energy at that range whereas even at 300 the 22-250 is producing not far off three times that, and that is with a 55grn bullet before you even explore going to 45grn

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2013 by al4x

[Underdog]

At last good comments.

I too have realised that less is more for me personaly.

Years ago it was pressure driven urges to perform better, reach further out etc etc.

Now however I prefere the hunt and close contact.

 

I understand that some men have terrain that makes getting close difficult and their choice of big boomers is correct, all be it still a form of pressure in my eyes. However I realise some like that kind of pressure, it drives them etc and thats fine.

 

Could it all just be a mis-understanding?

 

Who of us here would not enjoy assisting a feller on a 300yd shot on a windy day if we could?

Who of us would not want to stand with a feller with a Hornet in a wood calling a fox in? Would we not be equally excited?

 

We should all respectfully be patting each other on the backs, we are after all doing the same job!

 

U.

[kent]

the simple facts that Kent posted were quite well designed to try and promote the hornet as being the doggies danglies but to look at the bigger picture as has been mentioned by a few you need to see a few more facts, for instance gut shoot a fox at 200 with a hornet and it has the same muzzle energy as a HMR and you wouldn't expect that shot placement with a HMR to work well. The figures are massive when you start looking at 200 yard energy levels between the hornet and the other .22cf's. To show the extra data i've printed a few off using factory ammo and Kents zero for each caliber as a start. What it shows really is the .22-250 is pretty much point and shoot to 300 yards and the hornet to 200 not the 30 yards difference and that you have to be more accurate with the hornet as it is producing HMR muzzle energy at that range whereas even at 300 the 22-250 is producing not far off three times that, and that is with a 55grn bullet before you even explore going to 45grn

 

 

 

Again, I only published the facts. As the hornet is listed with the slowest loopiest and windy data- in what part of that confused brain do you read that as promotion of a hornet over the others? If you believe factory ammo data I suggest you run some over the chrono one day. I can change all the data given by selecting different bullets at different speeds the idea is to give a level playing field, case in point I run my own hornet at 2900 fps (significantly faster than shown) and with a 45 grn sierra. I could also show a healthy case full of varget and a 69gr SMK in a .223 rem. My figures are all calculated at 850 ft above sea level so will run a bit flatter than yours and a 1.5" bore to scope centre. Try listening some time it drastically increases your knoledge

[wymberley]

the simple facts that Kent posted were quite well designed to try and promote the hornet as being the doggies danglies but to look at the bigger picture as has been mentioned by a few you need to see a few more facts, for instance gut shoot a fox at 200 with a hornet and it has the same muzzle energy as a HMR and you wouldn't expect that shot placement with a HMR to work well. The figures are massive when you start looking at 200 yard energy levels between the hornet and the other .22cf's. To show the extra data i've printed a few off using factory ammo and Kents zero for each caliber as a start. What it shows really is the .22-250 is pretty much point and shoot to 300 yards and the hornet to 200 not the 30 yards difference and that you have to be more accurate with the hornet as it is producing HMR muzzle energy at that range whereas even at 300 the 22-250 is producing not far off three times that, and that is with a 55grn bullet before you even explore going to 45grn

 

 

 

Al4x,

 

Hello, mate,

 

I meant what I said. On this occasion I'm not interested in what Kent posted. Neither am I pushing the Hornet which you know I shoot having arrived there via 22-250, 243 and 223 as I got older. The question I asked is simply as written, no hidden agenda. You might prefer to give the answer in terms of your personal maximum range, giving the bullet specification and name together with the MV and I'll work out the energy level.

 

Cheers.

Edited April 9, 2013 by wymberley

[al4x]

facts are an interesting concept when you are having to reload to get the figures to what you want. the simple reason for using factory figures for all the calibers was to make the playing field level, you can play with this and that but keeing it constant over all calibers is what matters. It really does show in the field the 22.250 has 100 yards on the hornet in most hands and far more leeway for error. Beardo was interested in energy figures as they are what count downrange by your own admission you don't shoot many foxes these days so I can see why you want a rabbit and fox gun, some of us shoot quite a lot which justifies a gun mostly for foxes rather than having to have a jack of all trades.

[al4x]

Al4x,

 

Hello, mate,

 

I meant what I said. On this occasion I'm not interested in what Kent posted. Neither am I pushing the Hornet which you know I shoot having arrived there via 22-250, 243 and 223 as I got older. The question I asked is simply as written, no hidden agenda. You might prefer to give the answer in terms of your personal maximum range, giving the bullet specification and name together with the MV and I'll work out the energy level.

 

Cheers.

 

I can tell you more what does work than doesn't, I know that my .223 was capable of texas heart shots at 150 yards far from ideal but when you have a tricky character and its getting into partridge pens you take what shot you can, if you got a little more windage than expected or pulled a shot and placed it in the gut it had plenty to drop them with 55grn blitzkings. My .243 tends to work with gut shots well past 200 yards to be fair they aren't often but do happen when you shoot enough particularly if you shoot any that are on the move, thats a mix of 85grn soft points to 58 vmax. We tend to have very skittish country foxes that are far from stupid so really range wise I couldn't put a figure on it as I have had them close and I have had them well out, what I would say is both these calibers open them up and do devastating damage with the bullets mentioned.

[kent]

As you get older you learn that for 95% of foxing needs any centerfire will do the job. Where you once had a desire for bigger/faster etc etc I developed a desire to do the same job but with less, makes it more challenging. Hornet is a very efficient case, K Hornet even more so, I have a friend who uses it for his shorter range foxes, he has had it ( a BRNO) since the early 60s and has taken over 1000 foxes with it.

 

A

 

yes we have all been there. I recognise the advantage in both types of gun. Those who have visited here realise I cannot do all my fox and vermin with the little hornet, high winds and extended ranges are often the norm. But I certainly don't need the extra energy at shorter ranges on a calm day. If you use Al4x 's energy chart the 200 yds figure for the Hornet equates to the muzzle energy of a hmr that he is keen to tell us is fine for foxes at 100 yds so on energy that means the hornet is good for 300 IF you can hit them, fine because I wont be shooting at any 300 yds foxes with mine, better tools for that. Waiting at a crossing point, around an earth, lamping on a calmish night, popping stuff out the upstairs window or taking on all given quarry when out for a stroll about? then the Hornet does for me. THIS IS NOT ABOUT ONE CALIBRE THOUGH AND IT JUST REPRESENTS THE FACTS ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD AS CAN BE. Got to remember most of PW readers never even existed in the 60's as you mention and have only been old enough to own a gun for a relitively small window in time

[Amazed]

How many people regularly use .22 CFs for rabbits as well as foxes? And how many people have never thought of doing so? I think those who don't are missing a trick. Calibres that can sensibly do both are invaluable and that rules out the .22-250 and the .243 - how many foxes do you honestly shoot at 500 yds? The figures show the value of the Hornet as a long range rabbit round that is fox capable and they also show how little advantage there is in a .223 over a .222. If you drop bullet weight to 40 grn, which shoot extremely well in a .222 I think the triple is the better round. Less powder, less noise, stabilises the lighter bullets to produce great accuracy. Excellent dual-purpose round and flatter with more reach than the Hornet (though not as cheap to feed).

I do, I find that the hornet is plenty capable for fox but wouldn't tag it a foxing round.

I like mine as its an uncomplicated light gun fitted with a quality 6x42 scope is quite capable on rabbits out to 200 yards and maybe further on fox, but as been said shot placement at range with a small mag can be problematic.

I like it a lot and will only be changing it in chambering it in k hornet if the barrel ever has to come off.

But for now its my go to gun for a walk around the farms.

Its great to reload not much effort can produce good results. Just don't complicate it and its fine

[wymberley]

facts are an interesting concept when you are having to reload to get the figures to what you want. the simple reason for using factory figures for all the calibers was to make the playing field level, you can play with this and that but keeing it constant over all calibers is what matters. It really does show in the field the 22.250 has 100 yards on the hornet in most hands and far more leeway for error. Beardo was interested in energy figures as they are what count downrange by your own admission you don't shoot many foxes these days so I can see why you want a rabbit and fox gun, some of us shoot quite a lot which justifies a gun mostly for foxes rather than having to have a jack of all trades.

Thanks. I can't remember saying I don't shoot many foxes these days - although they're a bit thin on the ground just at present but I suppose it's how you define "many" - I would imagine my definition is somewhat less than yours. Certainly, I don't shoot any at more than the proverbial 200 yards - can't see through the hedges. I'll use the figures for the Hornet plus 100 yards set against those of the 22-250 for your answer.

 

PS: I've just been made aware of your last post, but I'll take a few minutes to give it the attention it deserves.

[al4x]

wasn't you wymberley not shooting many foxes

[Dekers]

What about the .22 SWIFT.

 

It's the one I know least about and isn't in the list?

 

[al4x]

What about the .22 SWIFT.

 

It's the one I know least about and isn't in the list?

 

 

 

only a 100 yard zero so not quite a straight comparison but you get the idea

 

Edited April 9, 2013 by al4x

[Paul223]

Fine when the shot is spot on and reasonably close but not when the fox is at distance or the shot placement isn't perfect. That is when the more energy in that fox the better,

indeed, then when you look at bullet construction a gut shot fox with a hornet 45g soft point is going to run, the other calibres have a better factory offering in bullet choice, when it comes to knock down power the .243 is hard to beat, take a 70 / 75 grain poly tipped, heavier bullet, better bullet construction for use on fox, much more frontal area to create a wound channel, a poor or pulled shot with the Hornet using a soft point will be a nightmare in the field, the same shot with a 55 grain upwards poly tipped vermin (not deer) bullet will have a much better outcome.

 

p.s i have both .22h and .243